batchel9

I'm reading the Too good to leave, Too bad to stay book in the stickies. It's good, except that I get hung up on the questions. So it asks:

“Is there something your partner does that makes your relationship too bad to stay in and that he acknowledges but that, for all intents and purposes, he’s unwilling to do anything about?”

The book specifically states to watch out for answers that demonstrate unwillingness like this example:
“I want to lose weight, too, but I’ve got to do it for myself, not for you, and I’ve got to do it in my own time and in my own way.”

This is my husbands answer all of the time pretty much. Or his is more like....... "I am doing what I need to do for myself." Which to him is "spending more mental energy and putting more thought into it" essentially.

I moved out away from AH several weeks ago because after a while (year?) of no drinking, he had a few bad relapses. I felt like he wasn't doing anything about them. He went on antibuse and started going to meetings every two weeks about, but that was it. Things I described him as things I would expect or want to be seeing was more frequent meetings, counseling, reading books, making healthier lifestyle changes (exercising, more sleep, etc), and kicking other bad habits (chewing tobacco).

Now that I have moved out, which is literally took me moving out to see any change, he has a counseling apt set up, seems to be making better decisions, is reading, etc. He has also significantly changed toward me....he's nice, helpful, patient, working on things I have been wanting him to do forever. Is this demonstrating willingness?? Or is this just him appeasing me because he knows I'm serious? I struggle with questions like "is he willing to change". He says he is, right now he is making changes, but is it sustainable??

I feel like for 15 years I have been waiting for this to be dealt with and it hasn't been. So I am having a hard time trusting it now. However I also don't want to miss it if he is sincerely trying.

You guys have experience with this also. Thoughts?

VigilanceNow

I think only time will tell. As I've mentioned in other posts, alcoholics are expert manipulators; I've done it myself on several occasions.

But of course you should always be an ally and supporter as long as it's not harming you in any way. The only thing that restored people's trust in me was being sincere and making honest effort that required action and commitment. I hope it works out for you!!

AnvilheadII

i think you are going to have to study his body of work over TIME, hon. let's see how he's doing six months from now. if he remains consistent and sober and making better decisions.

it's like baking. opening the oven door and checking on the cake every five minutes will NOT help the overall process and you won't see much happening. but if you wait a prescribed amount of time, you have a better chance of seeing a finished product.

willingness will be demonstrated over time. sorry, no quick fixes. for now it's ok to enjoy him not being a butthead.

LexieCat

I'd assume he is appeasing UNTIL he proves otherwise. This is the pattern, remember? I'd view everything right now with a healthy dose of skepticism. Be from Missouri--make him SHOW you.

I'm not suggesting you should roll your eyes (at least not in his presence), or make sarcastic remarks, or tell him you think he's BS'ing. You can be neutrally supportive, which means saying "That's great" or "Good for you" or "Keep it up." The trick is to avoid giving him the message that IF he continues you will return to him. If he tries to pin you down on that, I'd just say, "I'm not ready to even think about that right now."

Hey, if he needs to do this his own way, you have the same privilege. You make your decisions on YOUR own terms.

batchel9

Guys I am just struggling with this waiting game anymore. I feel like I have put in my time. But maybe I owe it a few more months?

I find myself wanting to move on. Thinking more seriously about finding happiness elsewhere. I saw him this weekend (in which he was doing something for my family that was totally nice and he didn't have to do at all) and he was all like "I miss you" and "I want to start by trying to date again" and I'm all like "meh" and blah feeling. Does this mean I'm getting over him?

Just not sure what to do. Keep waiting? And for what? And while I'm waiting, do what? For example I was invited to a coworkers cabin for a party (single guy) and I'm all feeling like I'm married so can't go, but yet I'm also not really with my husband so don't feel married, but kind of wanting to go because I have nothing else to do besides sit in my apartment. Ya know?

CreativeThinker

Hi Batchel,

I can relate! My AH "wants" to make many changes (believe me he has a long list), he just doesn't want to do any work towards change. It's as if he expects the change will just happen...if he thinks about it. Sounds crazy...wouldn't you say?

A few months ago we decided to stop drinking together. As usual, he was gung ho in the beginning. One of the tools that we planned to use to stay sober was daily exercise. The first few weeks he was all over it, some days he had his workout gear on before me. Then, like every other time we've decided to make changes in our lifestyles, he began finding excuses to skip a workout, then another, until he stopped completely.

Same with his drinking, he was adamant about quitting, but he never took responsibility in his own recovery. When things began to get difficult, he gave up. He thought he could find recovery by white knuckling it. Within a few weeks, he was drinking again and hiding it from me.

We began seeing a therapist a month after our quit date. He went into the first session and totally lied about his drinking habits, downplaying his alcoholism all the way. The next session he didn't go because he had a headache.

Most recently, I discovered that he had a 2nd cell phone. We've been dealing with his infidelity for years (long story). The cell was just the confirmation that he is still communicating with other women.

His denial about the state of his life is unbelievable and I am at the end of my rope. I went to see a divorce attorney last week for a consultation. Our therapist told me at my solo session last week that I shouldn't make any major changes until I have been sober for 1 year...but he wasn't aware of the infidelity aspect (the phone incident happened after my session). I don't know if I can wait until I have been sober 1 yr. to make a major move, as he has become my biggest trigger.

We have another session this Tuesday and I plan to address all of these issues at that time. I feel that we need to set some boundaries and decide on what the consequences will be if his behavior does not change in a drastic way.

Good for you for taking a stand in your marriage. I really think that sometimes we need to make a radical move in order for them to wake up and understand that we're not going to accept their behavior any longer.

Like you, I have been waiting for change for over a decade. How long is it going to take?

Thanks for your post and stay in touch!

VigilanceNow

This is such a difficult situation!! I agree with what was said earlier - you won't see a drastic change overnight. He also shouldn't make you feel that you have to check up on him, he should create a sober network for himself that is impartial to the situation and has experience with alcoholism. Stay strong though, for yourself!! Things will work out in time.

LexieCat

No reason for you not to go to a party. Have a good time. You could do that even if you were still living with him.

I think the only thing you "owe" him at this point is honesty. If you are sure that you're done, tell him so. And take steps to make it official--either file for divorce or legal separation. If you're not sure, wait until you are. You don't "owe" him another chance. It's perfectly FINE to be done--to reach your personal limit of what you are willing to tolerate. That's called being a grownup, and it requires honesty with yourself, not obligation to someone who has ignored his own obligations.

It's perfectly OK, too, to not be sure yet. There is no emergency here. It's OK to wait and see what he does, and see how you feel about him at that point. Even if he does everything perfectly and is a shining example of recovery, that doesn't obligate you.

batchel9

Yeah it sounds like we are in similar boats!!

I think that I need to start consulting with divorce attorneys also to get the ball rolling and at least educate myself.

Have you found counseling for the both of you helpful?? I have been going to counseling for myself and haven't done counseling with him. Mostly because it doesn't feel like an "us" thing to fix....it is him dealing with his issues. But wondering if it has been helpful?

Argh the infidelity issues PLUS drinking would throw me over the edge I think. I've just been having s super hard time because my husband has gone from drinking very frequently several years ago to once a month or less. So pretty infrequent, which feels like progress, except that it has been BAD! Drinking and driving, drinking at work, driving under the influence WITH the kids in the car. My trust in him is toast.

batchel9

Good analogy!! Lol. Liked this. Thanks for posting!

Sunkeeper

I agree with everyone else, give it time. It's easy to fall back into old habits. And change doesn't happen over night.

maia1234

B, the divorce process takes a very long time. Education is power. Meet with an attorney and find out what the process is. When you do this, it all falls into place. You just need to keep moving forward.

Maudcat

Hi, all. Good questions. When is enough enough?
Everyone has their own personal line that, once crossed, can't be uncrossed.
Some people never get it. They lives their lives in hope that the addict will make the changes that will restore everyone to the lives they had pre-alcohol, or give them the lives they want but haven't gotten.
Kind of an unwieldy sentence. I hope it's clear enough.
I post to this site a lot, especially to respond to a poster living with an alcohol-dependent spouse. It is sometimes men who post, but it's mostly women.
The decision to leave the alcoholic spouse is HUGE, and Kudos to anyone who comes to that bend in the river.
You are envisioning a different life that you are crafting for yourself, no longer reacting to the drama and chaos of your current life.
Is it easy? No.
Can you do it? Most certainly.
One of my favorite lines from one of my favorite shows, The Big Bang Theory, was said by Sheldon's mother, who comes into town to help Sheldon get his job back.
"As Sheldon's daddy, God rest his soul, always said: "You can only fish so long before you have to throw a stick of dynamite in the water."
Here's to throwing sticks of dynamite.

Ladybird579

He has also significantly changed toward me....he's nice, helpful, patient, working on things I have been wanting him to do forever. Is this demonstrating willingness?? Or is this just him appeasing me because he knows I'm serious? I struggle with questions like "is he willing to change". He says he is, right now he is making changes, but is it sustainable??

It is sustainable? Most likely not. My exah did all the right things when we split up but it was an exercise in hoping I'd come back. When I didn't he went totally off the rails and was drunk 24/7 until he ended up in hospital.

Sustained recovery is HARD. Most don't make it even when they really, really want too.

I realised my exah and I are better apart. He's functioning now, been sober 4 months and is taking an interest in our sons for the first time ever. I know from doing it before if we got back together he'd be back to his old ways within 24 hours. I'd move on if I were you but only you can know if you can.

dandylion

Maudcat....thank you, for the first laugh-out-loud of the day!

Your post reminds me of something that stuck in my brain from a psychology course....The discussion was about aging and the most important factors that were found in those who aged well into their very senior years (like those that reached 100yrs. old)....and, one of the factors seemed to be the ability to adjust to change...as, in the kinds of changes that become necessary in the course of one's life.....
In the studies....it wasn't that anyone had a harder or easier life....many had very difficult challenges, along the way....but the general positive attitude and wiliness to accept the realities of life, seemed to be a constant factor.....

Maudcat

That's resilience, isn't it? Some have it, some do not.
I have posted this before, so forgive, everyone, for the repetition.
One of the most insidious aspects of alcohol dependency is the normalization by the family of the alcoholic's aberrent behaviors.
Drunk at 11 am? Oh well. Incontinent again? Hmm, have to do an extra load of wash today. Shouting at (pick one) neighbors, kids, pets, spouse, for real and imagined transgressions? Shhhh. Go to bed, hon.
Often it takes time away from the offending person to see just how not-normal it all is.
Peace.

TimeForMe

XAH set up an appointment with a therapist for both of us just after I left. I went. The therapist refused to work with us as a couple once I said I left because of his drinking. She said couples therapy was a waste of time if one person was in active alcoholism.

As far as I can tell, almost two years after that meeting, he's still drinking.

dandylion

batchel...what TimeForMe said, is the feeling of most all couples therapists. Same goes for abuse, in the relationship....
In fact, in some cases, it may be harmful to the other partner....

abbccj03

I am going thru a similar situation. It has been a month since I had AH move out. He is taking steps that has not been done in the past. I know this is because he crossed my boundary and I had to follow through. He has never been away from us for more than a few nights. There is no quick fix. Only time will tell if he is trying to put a bandaid on to get back home or if he is making true changes. I know there are success stories of people becoming sober bc there are many on here that respond to our post that are themselves sober. I know it takes long term dedication and intense therapy. Sending you positive thoughts as you deal with all of this.

Aeryn

My XAH got sober after I left but it took him FOUR years. First he had to hit a horrible bottom (for him a DUI) then he got a year sober and relapsed. Then another year sober and relapsed...then some sobriety and relapses and finally after four years he got sober and up until now has stayed sober - that said there is no guarantee there won't be another relapse. I'm happy for him I'm still friends with him but I'm glad I'm not "with" him. I used to be mad I had been in the relationship but now I see it as that relationship had a purpose for both of us and we wouldn't be where we were today had we not had the relationship (him sober and doing great in his career and me having a child with a surrogate!) And I strongly feel had I not left he would never have hit bottom.

My point is I'm glad I didn't wait the four years to start my life. I would have missed out on a lot!

This is just my experience and ESL - everyone's journey is different .