jonbald

Some of you are familiar with our ongoing story.

Our 37-year-old son who has depression, anxiety, social anxiety, low self-esteem, ADD and is an alcoholic lives with us. He has not been good at holding down jobs. Some he has been fired from and some he just walked off because he wasn't going to do the work required. He has been on medications and has seen psychiatrists and psychologist since he was in high school over 20 years ago. At my encouragement, he has applied for disability and there's at least a year left in that process. He is manipulative, lazy and, like an alcoholic, he lies to us. Our current living situation is very uncomfortable and many in Alanon and other "normal" people have advised us that he should be expelled from the house. This would leave him homeless. He currently has a new job, but he is only getting 15 hours a week when he needs to have 30. Here's the latest:

I have talked with him about doing a budget. He didn’t see how he could do a budget on the few hours he’s currently getting at work. I told him (as I have explained multiple times before) that he would have to get another part-time job to get his hours up to 30 a week. He did not like that. I then went over what his income would be and what his rent would be, and how much discretionary money he’d have left. He would have plenty but not enough to support his lifestyle of smoking, energy drinks, constant fast food, and the game store. I told him we’d discussed that he’d have to be frugal to pay us back (pay rent) when we helped him buy a car he wanted (rather than taking the better car we offered to give him). He didn’t complain then, nor when we helped him buy new tires, or repair his transmission all for this poorly chosen new car(which had twice the mileage of the one we'd offered him). He didn’t mind the fact that he’d have to live frugally when we were loaning him money.

He said he had worked his ass off at the new job and I explained that he hadn’t even put in one 40 hour week. Only one week did they give him 32 hours and the other three weeks he only got 15.

I explained to him that everyone who knows our situation thinks he has it made here, living with his parents in a nice house, food, etc. and has no motivation to grow up. I explained that since he was living with us that he was basically living as a child at home and not as an adult. I said that he was going to have to start showing some adult maturity if he wanted to live here

I told him if he preferred, his mother and I could back off and allow him to make his own decisions and live with the consequences. He said he didn’t know what that means and I explained that it meant he could live on his own, but not with us. He did not like that.

He’s not keeping his post-rehab agreement with us in small ways and his attitude is not good. He isn’t blatantly oppositional, butt he has a poor attitude when he does what I ask. If I ask him to empty the dishwasher he doesn’t look too happy about it because it’s not one of his regular chores. He’s not followed through on his post-rehab plan and, when I asked if he had one he said not. But, I know for a fact he left rehab with a written plan, so he lied to me.

His psychiatrist put him back on Adderall which has given him problems in the past with abuse issues. I am supposed to dole it out to him so I put it in a weekly pill box and now he’s using it improperly so I have to go to a once a day system.

His mother and I have discussed the work situation and have decided that it is not depression, anxiety, ADD, or the mental illness that is creating this attitude and situation. While we know how hard it is for him to live with those conditions, his problem right now is a flat out decision that he wants to live with us on his terms and does not want to live with the house rules or cooperate willingly with us.

We have decided to give him one week to see if his current job gives him more hours or the promotion that he’d thought he was getting (he hasn’t gotten that promotion to full-time and they are using him about 15 hours a week just to do the hard work of unloading the truck without the other responsibilities he’d been promised). If they don’t give him more hours within a week, he will have two weeks to get another part-time job or get out of the house. This is going to be terribly hard to enforce. I actually kicked him out of the house at the age of 18 due to these same type problems, but it seems harder now. I am older and sort of worn out.

I hope I am not downplaying the mental illness part of this, but he even slacks on getting his disability paperwork completed unless I prompt him to do it. He has clearly made a career of lying to us like alcoholics do and we’re just tired. We are not the same people we used to be, it has changed us. Something has to change. We're 61 and 62 and should be getting ready to enjoy retirement instead of struggling with an adult child who won't grow up.

Sorry to go on and on but it helps is a small way to vent. Is there anyone out there with the same situation? How did you deal with it?

ShootingStar1

There is no easy or pleasant way out of this.

I think the crux of the issue is that you and your wife have to decide whose life you are living: yours or his.

He is an adult. His problems are his to own and to solve.

I tried for many years to "fix" things for my then abusive and alcoholic husband. After much failure, and much loss for myself, I finally came to realize that my view that I knew better than he did how to live his life was arrogance on my part.

He was an adult, and he had the obligation, responsibility, and accountability for choosing how he lived and living with the consequences. I only had that for myself, and in focusing on how I could "help" him, I had neglected my own life and damaged myself. Everyone, including alcoholics, have the freedom to make their own choices, whether or not we think they are hurting themselves and making bad decisions.

The kicker is that everyone also is accountable for living with the results of their choices, good, bad or indifferent. YOU are not responsible or accountable for his mistakes. To take care of the problems he creates is crippling him. He can't and won't learn that way. He'll just turn to you and ultimately probably blame you as well.

While it can be terribly emotionally traumatic, your health and your son's health depends on letting him live on his own, despite what may seem like a devastating failure for him. Give him the dignity of living his own life. And get back to living YOUR lives, as well and as happily as you can.

If you haven't read Co-Dependent No More by Melody Beattie, it is a powerful introduction to how we, as co-dependents, lean into the lives of the addicted person in our lives, and forget to live our own.

More people will be by here on SoberRecovery (SR) soon, and you will find lots and lots of support. You might read the "stickies" at the top of the Friends and Families of Alcoholics page; there are many many resources there that will apply to your situation.

Said with great empathy, take what you want and live the rest.

ShootingStar1

jonbald

We are in Alanon and have many non-Alanon friends and many of them say what you've said, kick him out. I am also a member of NAMI (National Association for the Mentally Ill). They deal with dual-diagnosis cases such as alcoholism or addiction combined with mental illness, depression, anxiety, ADD, social anxiety. They recommend that ultimatums never work.

So the question becomes how and when do we get him out of the house? Right now, he'd be homeless. Wait a year as he completes his process of getting disability (It takes about a year and a half).

I feel he should have to live with house rules if he stays here, but there comes the ultimatum again. However, he can't live here and just do anything he wants, which he isn't. There is some cooperation, just not as strict as I'd like to see it.

So, it is a dilemma and that is why I'm gathering as much ESH as I can, Thanks for commenting.

Eauchiche

I am so sorry for what you folks are going through.
It is easy for others, myself included, to tell you how you should handle this situation.
None of us are in your shoes.
I have also been told by a friend at work that being a parent trumps everything else.
I will be praying for you.

CoParentToA

My dual-diagnosis AXH had his family trying to help him the "right" way for over two years. The first of those, they decided against telling me they had realized he was an alcoholic and at the time he was caring for two two-year-olds half the time, and by himself. (Finally the nanny clued me in.)

You know what finally worked after multiple failed interventions? When they made it clear that they would no longer protect him from his own actions and that extended to the custody of his children and how far they would go to ensure their safety.

They didn't phrase it as, "you go to rehab or else." But they did make it clear that they felt his sobriety was required for the children to be safe, and that they would stop at nothing to protect them.

Until then, that was the one thing they weren't willing to take away from him, the last of their enabling. He finally pursued help when that was gone. So I guess that was one ultimatum that worked.

LexieCat

First, I have the deepest sympathy for you and your wife--this has to be incredibly difficult.

What I'm seeing is that you keep giving him ultimatums, and then you keep moving the line in the sand. "One more week (or month or year) and do this OR ELSE." It should be pretty clear by now that he has no intention on following through and he probably no longer believes a word you say about what he "has" to do to keep living there.

It's OK to simply be DONE. Done with the extensions, done with waiting to see what happens with the job, with the disability, whatever. From everything you've posted, he is CAPABLE of doing work to support himself, but he'd rather slack off and spend his money on junk, while you provide a roof over his head, car, food. Why should he do anything more?

You and your wife DO deserve to enjoy your retirement. You can "retire" from being caretaker for an adult who is capable of caring for himself. There are social services to help him, but they, too, will insist that he pull his weight.

Very, very hard to do, but remember--this isn't to punish him, it's to set you free and allow him to stand on his own two feet, if he chooses.

caretaker88

I am so glad you checked out NAMI! I hope it has been helpful for you! Your son does seem to be capable of so much more than what he is doing. He honestly sounds like a big baby! It absolutely sucks that you are having to "police" his Adderall. That does not sound like recovery at all to me.

I know this is going to be extremely hard to do, but you need to do it. Like Lexi said, you keep moving the line in the sand, which leads to further manipulation and disrespect on his part. As you have said before, he is very intelligent and he obviously has manipulation down pat. It really is time for him to go. He has chosen to not respect the boundaries you have given him. The most loving thing you can do as a father is to let him go. That may mean kicking his butt to the curb, and given what you guys have been through with him, it is way past the time to do so.

As having codependency issues myself, I would like to share a little story with you.... My youngest son, who was 6 at the time, taught me a great lesson in parenting. He was trying to get his bike out of the garage and it was stuck on something. He was getting a little frustrated and I immediately jumped in to help him. He told me, "No! I can do it myself! I need to have pride mom!" That really threw me! I was being an enabler in every aspect of my life and he gave me the foresight into the future if I continued to "help". I was not really "helping", I was trying to spare him the frustration of doing it himself. He was right; I was depriving him of the chance to have pride in himself!

I think this very simple, yet profound interaction with my son is very relevant to your situation. Give your son the gift of developing independence so that he may build some self-respect, which should result in him having more respect for others in his life. It is a part of growing up, otherwise known as "maturity".

OpenTuning

Hi Jonbald,

So sorry to hear about the very difficult situation you're in.

Can I just throw a thought that struck me from what you wrote. I see you used the word 'ultimatum" a few times, which has quite a negative connotation to it, sounds harsh, like a punishment. Rather than sticking to the more neutral word "boundary" which is really what this is about.

We can offer all kinds of advice, but ultimately it's up to you and your wife to decide where your boundaries are. The limits to what you consider acceptable for you to put up with at this stage in your life, while still allowing you to enjoy your lives as you head towards retirement, which you have every right to expect.

Then, as long as he knows where the boundaries are, and what he needs to do to stick to them, if he crosses them it's entirely his choice and he should face the consequences of that choice.

Of course it isn't easy to enforce boundaries. It takes courage. And you'll want as much support as you can get. But please don't think of it as you being harsh, and punishing your son. You're simply giving him an opportunity to be an adult. It's up to him whether or not he takes that opportunity.

AnvilheadII

This would leave him homeless.

if i only had a p/t job and had poor money management skills and VIOLATED almost every rule of the house that people had be kind enough to let me stay in, i too would end up on the other side of the door. THEM'S THE RULES out here in adult-land. and at 56, an adult orphan with no siblings, there is no one out there to cushion my fall.

i GET that the mental health issues SEEM to fog the lens.....but as a 37 year old MAN, those are issues for HIM to deal with.

or not.

see that's the thing......if he doesn't want to play by the rules, he doesn't HAVE to, BUT.........he then gets to feel the consequences.

you say you kicked him out at 18.......now he's 37........amazing but he survived for 20 years.

jonbald

He survived for 20 years because part of that time he was living off a combination of his menial job and money his grandparents had given him. When that ran out the bank foreclosed on his house, he moved to our town and came to work for me for years. Part of his pay was an apartment to live in. So, theoretically, he hasn't survived all these years on his own.

jonbald

Here is an update. First, thank you to all who commented. There have been some good things said. And, as Alanon says, I'm going to take what I want and leave the rest. I am going to do what I think is reasonable and the best for the situation.

I set up a meeting this afternoon with my son, me, my wife, and his AA sponsor, We discussed his recovery and his work situations. His sponsor feels that it is best to take this in steps rather than all at once and I think he has a good point. The arrangement right now is that he get out and find an additional job to get his hours up to what he needs. And, his sponsor is going to find another sponsor who will actively work the program with him like the program is supposed to be worked.

His mother and I are going to come up with a weekly amount for him to pay us to pay back the loan we gave him, which will eventually turn into rent once the loan is satisfied.

It may not be perfect, but it's a start.

OpenTuning

That sounds like a reasonable plan, Jonbald. A start, as you say. And presumably if all goes to plan, and once he's paying rent to you, then it's a relatively small step from there to his paying rent to someone else and finding somewhere of his own to start an independent life.

I hope you and your wife will also have a chance to sit down together and really think about what you want your own lives to be like, to think about your own needs and ambitions, and again, figure out where your own personal boundaries are that it won't be acceptable for your son to cross. And what you'll do if that does happen. There's a very real chance your son will test your resolve, see what he can still get away with, so how you respond to that will play a big part in how successful your new plan will be. Again, this isn't about punishments, it's about helping your son become an adult responsible for his own decisions, which is hopefully everyone's goal here.

jonbald

OpenTuning,

Thanks. His ability to move out depends on his ability to pay and that's the big reason he still lives with us. He has, at my suggestion and the suggestion of others, started the process of applying for disability. When you are on disability or applying for disability you can only earn up to about $1100 month and not go over that amount or you are disqualified. He had been told at work that he was getting a full-time promotion and he felt he could move out and get his own place if that happened. However, the place he's working is screwy, won't give him a straight answer about the promotion. They originally said "It's yours" and now they say they have to advertise the position and haven't done so yet. He is not optimistic that full-time will work out, but if it had he was going to take it even though it would disqualify him for disability. I think something in him wants to succeed because frankly, this job sucks and I wouldn't want to do it. It's not like him either. But, we want him to work about 25 hours a week which will keep him under the threshold and allow him and his lawyers to continue pursuing disability. When he gets that, which will take at least another year, he will have the funds to live on his own. That is our goal, but we want him cooperating with us and getting better mentally as he goes also.

OpenTuning

It's terrific that he's showing signs of wanting to be independent, including being independent of Disability as well by looking at full time work. Is your worry that if he did take full time work, that would disqualify him from Disability and the job might not work out in the long run? I'm just wondering if he might be getting slightly mixed signals from you? That you want him to be independent, but by encouraging him to stay under 25 hours are you also sending him a message that you don't believe he can make it on his own? I don't mean that to sound judgmental at all, you have a lot of excellent reasons to worry about his ability to hold down jobs. Just wondering if that's something to be aware of. It's an incredibly difficult situation you find yourselves in, and I can only imagine how hard it is to know what the best thing to do is. Again my main hope right now is that with all this focus on your son, you and your wife don't lose sight of your own needs.

jonbald

Thanks for the concern. I'm not sure about the mixed signals. We have not said it directly to him, but we don't have confidence that he will keep a full-time job. He has never kept a job long term. I think the longest he kept a job in his life was two years and he has many that he has not kept. He's been fired and has walked off jobs in as little as three days.

He admitted at first that it hurt his pride to think of going on disability, but he thought maybe I was right, that he should apply because he had gone through so many jobs in the last two years. It has actually been somewhat of a lifelong pattern that has gotten worse.

With his current job going full-time. No, I don't think he'd last long-term on it but I haven't said that. He has to be there at 6 AM. Twice a week he has to spend six hours unloading a truck. The job is at Macy's and they are on shaky ground anyway. They are closing over 100 in several states, although ours is not currently one of them. He said there was a lot to the job and it was a little scary. While he is extremely intelligent, he's not by nature a detail person. He also says his boss is sort of mean. So, I'm not real optimistic about it. However, back when he thought they were giving the full-time position to him I did not discourage him from taking it and encouraged him to make his own decision. He decided to take it and I supported that. But, no, I don't have long-term optimism about him.

This is a guy who has an extremely high IQ. In grade school, he would do his homework at home and then not turn the papers into the teacher. So, his grades suffered. In high school, he didn't apply himself due to laziness and depression. When we shipped him off his senior year to boarding school he did very well academically. Unfortunately, that is where he learned to drink. :-)

He has never shown much drive for anything other than recreational activities that please himself. It is such a waste of talent and brains. Since he moved back to our town after getting foreclosed on in Florida, we have encouraged and supported him in going back to college. Three times he has just quit. The last time was within the last year. I told him, "You need to apply yourself to your classes and do college right, or else just decide you're going to work a factory job all your life. This is your third time at college." He went to a few classes, never seemed to have any homework and one day on the back porch I asked him "Don't you have class?" He said, "I'm going to take a factory job." I just walked off. So, he got a factory job and quit the first day, because he didn't want to pack boxes all day every day. So, on it goes. It is sad to see this because I believe something he once said. We were talking with him about his life and he said: "I should have Dr. after my name." He knows what he's capable of.

OpenTuning

Wow, it must be heartbreaking for you to see so much potential in your son being wasted like you're describing. I really feel for you. I have a nephew who we're worried might be heading down a similar path. Really, really hard on everyone.

It does sound like you've done everything you can to open doors for your son, and give him opportunities to change his life. Unfortunately, I don't think it's possible to make someone live up to their potential. The desire to change and grow will have to come from within him. You mention he's had psychiatrists and psychologists since High School, presumably including talk therapies, so it's hard to think of anything more you could have done. He's made his own choices, disappointing as they are for you, and it sounds like that's something you're at least beginning to accept. If he's like many addicts/ex addicts he'll probably have a hundred reasons why he'll feel it's all your fault, or someone else's fault, but I hope you know that isn't true. You're not responsible for the choices he's made. He is. I guess what I meant about the mixed signals, is that I'd be a bit wary about pushing him either towards the 25 hours / disability option or the full time work option. Absolutely present him with the different options, explaining how both could work, and the pros and cons involved, but leave it entirely up to him to decide which is best. Does that make sense? It just feels that you've felt the need to take responsibility for his life for what sounds like many, many years now, and it feels like this could be the time to gradually start handing that responsibility back to him. Which ties in with those boundaries, and making sure your own and your wife's hopes, dreams and plans don't get lost in all this focus on your son. Not suggesting for a second that this is the easy option, but I do feel it may be the best in the long term for all of you, including your son.

tomsteve

one thing i see in people in recovery with mental illnesses that is amazing is them not using their mental illnesses as an excuse to not take accountability and responsability for their lives- they dont allow their mental illness to stop them from being responsable adults.
ive learned quite a bit f4om them

jonbald

I don't hear mine using that as an excuse anymore. He just doesn't talk to us about anything like that until we confront him on his behaviors. He just says he's not happy. He's going to meetings, taking his meds, and meeting with a therapist. The meds help a little, the therapist probably isn't helping much. The thing he's not doing is working as much as he knows he ought and he's not really working the program. Hopefully this new sponsor they're looking for will be good at dealing with him on a spiritual/program leve.

atalose

Someone above mentioned – you keep moving the line in the sand. For me with my situation I didn’t see it that way, at first! After working my own program – al-anon, getting a sponsor, going to meeting regularly, working the steps, I clearly saw how I was constantly moving that line in the sand, ending up in the same place over and over again.

You are putting a lot of faith into him obtaining a new sponsor and truly working the AA program. I hope that you and your wife are putting just as much faith into yourselves on working your own al-anon program.

You seem to have signed on for possibly another year of living this way, waiting for him to apply and be approved for disability. Keep working your program, if you commit to it and true change for your life you’ll get a different result.

As it’s said in Al-anon: If you do what you’ve always done you’ll get what you’ve always gotten.

jonbald

We have moved the line lots of times. However, the disability was my idea and I plan to do my best to help him through to that. If he just refuses to cooperate then that's the end of it. I can't know when he's hit bottom, but until I fulfill my responsibility in helping him get his disability, then I don't plan to make him homeless because that is what it will be. I am working with other mental health professionals that do not think he is "normal" alcoholic and they do not think that at this point a "hardcore" Alanon approach is the correct way to go. So, there may be more struggle and grief, but we're willing to at least give it a try. I do discuss these things with my wife too and we are united. Some of you think that we're handling this wrong and are not setting boundaries and that we keep moving the boundaries. That is and is not true. It depends on the particular issue at hand. When we met with his sponsor yesterday (an old man with long term sobriety) he felt like we should try to take this in steps rather than all at once, so that is what we agreed to try. Thanks for the input and perspective.