How to not Take a Things Personally?
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Originally Posted by Todzilla 
Just to clarify, she is eight years sober and deeply involved in AA. Still, her behavior of emotional narcissism and cruel outbursts are worse now than they ever were when she was actively drinking.
The intervention happened, but he didn't change that much.
Maybe your wife would if it were done right.
I am so glad you are here among us! Keep coming back.
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Originally Posted by Todzilla
Just to clarify, she is eight years sober and deeply involved in AA. Still, her behavior of emotional narcissism and cruel outbursts are worse now than they ever were when she was actively drinking.
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Thanks. I know I cannot put up with this and I see life without her as far from horrible.
Still I owe it to all involved to see if our AA and Al Anon work, and individual and joint counseling can work. And by "work," I mean provide great clarity to the dysfunctional dynamic so that the resulting decision can be made calmly and not in a fit of rage.
Still I owe it to all involved to see if our AA and Al Anon work, and individual and joint counseling can work. And by "work," I mean provide great clarity to the dysfunctional dynamic so that the resulting decision can be made calmly and not in a fit of rage.
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I'm curious Todzilla what is her response to these rage episodes after the fact? Is there:
- any acknowledgement at all?
- blame shifting (its somehow your fault)
- apology
- Promises that she will try and do something about it?
- any acknowledgement at all?
- blame shifting (its somehow your fault)
- apology
- Promises that she will try and do something about it?
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Originally Posted by redatlanta
I'm curious Todzilla what is her response to these rage episodes after the fact? Is there:
- any acknowledgement at all?
- blame shifting (its somehow your fault)
- apology
- Promises that she will try and do something about it?
- any acknowledgement at all?
- blame shifting (its somehow your fault)
- apology
- Promises that she will try and do something about it?
Blame shifting? Absolutely. If I bring up a concern/grievance, it is quickly trumped by how it was my fault in the first place.
Apology? Rarely, and it's vague. Then, she'll later dig up the thing she vaguely apologized for and throw it back at me, thereby nullifying any apology she may have offered.
No promises. Her references to her behavior are rare and fleeting and seem tangential to her main grievance, which is... Drumroll please... That I am guarded with her.
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Originally Posted by MissFixit
Have you considered that maybe she is just a jerk? Not to be mean, but 8 years sober and deeply involved with AA might be as good as it gets with recovery for her. That is a lot of self work to end up being an abuser. Alcoholism is not always the culprit for bad behavior. Some people are just mentally screwed up and abuse to deal with life.
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Originally Posted by dandylion
Todzilla....I can add some clarity, right now: "Stop tolerating abuse". It is wrong for her to do it; it is wrong for you to take it.
dandylion
dandylion
Much of it is subtle -isolating herself and giving monosyllabic responses. Then she'll take my inventory and diagnose all my "issues." Sure, we've all got them, but her accusations are such clear projections of her own mess.
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Todzilla....my short response to this is: Detach, detach detach. You may have to detach yourself all the way out the door--if this is what is required. We don't always get to keep the people we have loved. Sometimes, the only thing is to love them from a distance.
dandylion
dandylion
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I'm sorry Todzilla but it seems like if it was going to improve it would have by now.
I'm concerned for you, but as someone growing up in an alcoholic and verbally abusive home I'm even more concerned for your daughter.
Even if you can keep taking it (which you shouldn't)
why should she have to put up with it even one more day?
That kind of treatment causes lifelong damage--I should know as it happened to me
and I ended up an alcoholic in my turn.
Not trying to be critical, but speaking here from my own experience being trapped
with a verbally abusive mother. It isn't a good thing no matter how you analyze it.
I'm concerned for you, but as someone growing up in an alcoholic and verbally abusive home I'm even more concerned for your daughter.
Even if you can keep taking it (which you shouldn't)
why should she have to put up with it even one more day?
That kind of treatment causes lifelong damage--I should know as it happened to me
and I ended up an alcoholic in my turn.
Not trying to be critical, but speaking here from my own experience being trapped
with a verbally abusive mother. It isn't a good thing no matter how you analyze it.
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Join Date: Dec 2014
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Hi Todzilla,
I too understand what you are feeling, asking, and experiencing. At this very moment (with the exception of this break �� ), I am in the middle of packing and will be moving out in 6 days. It took me a couple of years to get to where I am today. I tried to move a year ago, and just couldn't do it. I really broke down at the last minute, and even paid a hefty lease termination fee to stay at the home my partner and I had built. In hindsight, I wish I hadn't done that but believe now it was a part of the process I had to go through.
Thankfully, there are no children involved in our relationship, as I'm sure that complicates things so much more.
Bottom line, what helped me most was reading, reading, reading. SR. Has been a HUGE part of this, although I've only recently joined and started posting. The reading really aligned my feelings and the behavior my spouse was displaying, pretty much EXACTLY like you are describing.
I'll try to post more later. Need to go to Lowe's for more moving supplies!
Take care!
I too understand what you are feeling, asking, and experiencing. At this very moment (with the exception of this break �� ), I am in the middle of packing and will be moving out in 6 days. It took me a couple of years to get to where I am today. I tried to move a year ago, and just couldn't do it. I really broke down at the last minute, and even paid a hefty lease termination fee to stay at the home my partner and I had built. In hindsight, I wish I hadn't done that but believe now it was a part of the process I had to go through.
Thankfully, there are no children involved in our relationship, as I'm sure that complicates things so much more.
Bottom line, what helped me most was reading, reading, reading. SR. Has been a HUGE part of this, although I've only recently joined and started posting. The reading really aligned my feelings and the behavior my spouse was displaying, pretty much EXACTLY like you are describing.
I'll try to post more later. Need to go to Lowe's for more moving supplies!
Take care!
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Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 9
Hi Todzilla,
I too understand what you are feeling, asking, and experiencing. At this very moment (with the exception of this break 😄 ), I am in the middle of packing and will be moving out in 6 days. It took me a couple of years to get to where I am today. I tried to move a year ago, and just couldn't do it. I really broke down at the last minute, and even paid a hefty lease termination fee to stay at the home my partner and I had built. In hindsight, I wish I hadn't done that but believe now it was a part of the process I had to go through.
Thankfully, there are no children involved in our relationship, as I'm sure that complicates things so much more.
Bottom line, what helped me most was reading, reading, reading. SR. Has been a HUGE part of this, although I've only recently joined and started posting. The reading really aligned my feelings and the behavior my spouse was displaying, pretty much EXACTLY like you are describing.
I'll try to post more later. Need to go to Lowe's for more moving supplies!
Take care!
I too understand what you are feeling, asking, and experiencing. At this very moment (with the exception of this break 😄 ), I am in the middle of packing and will be moving out in 6 days. It took me a couple of years to get to where I am today. I tried to move a year ago, and just couldn't do it. I really broke down at the last minute, and even paid a hefty lease termination fee to stay at the home my partner and I had built. In hindsight, I wish I hadn't done that but believe now it was a part of the process I had to go through.
Thankfully, there are no children involved in our relationship, as I'm sure that complicates things so much more.
Bottom line, what helped me most was reading, reading, reading. SR. Has been a HUGE part of this, although I've only recently joined and started posting. The reading really aligned my feelings and the behavior my spouse was displaying, pretty much EXACTLY like you are describing.
I'll try to post more later. Need to go to Lowe's for more moving supplies!
Take care!
Member
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 9
Hi Todzilla,
I too understand what you are feeling, asking, and experiencing. At this very moment (with the exception of this break 😄 ), I am in the middle of packing and will be moving out in 6 days. It took me a couple of years to get to where I am today. I tried to move a year ago, and just couldn't do it. I really broke down at the last minute, and even paid a hefty lease termination fee to stay at the home my partner and I had built. In hindsight, I wish I hadn't done that but believe now it was a part of the process I had to go through.
Thankfully, there are no children involved in our relationship, as I'm sure that complicates things so much more.
Bottom line, what helped me most was reading, reading, reading. SR. Has been a HUGE part of this, although I've only recently joined and started posting. The reading really aligned my feelings and the behavior my spouse was displaying, pretty much EXACTLY like you are describing.
I'll try to post more later. Need to go to Lowe's for more moving supplies!
Take care!
I too understand what you are feeling, asking, and experiencing. At this very moment (with the exception of this break 😄 ), I am in the middle of packing and will be moving out in 6 days. It took me a couple of years to get to where I am today. I tried to move a year ago, and just couldn't do it. I really broke down at the last minute, and even paid a hefty lease termination fee to stay at the home my partner and I had built. In hindsight, I wish I hadn't done that but believe now it was a part of the process I had to go through.
Thankfully, there are no children involved in our relationship, as I'm sure that complicates things so much more.
Bottom line, what helped me most was reading, reading, reading. SR. Has been a HUGE part of this, although I've only recently joined and started posting. The reading really aligned my feelings and the behavior my spouse was displaying, pretty much EXACTLY like you are describing.
I'll try to post more later. Need to go to Lowe's for more moving supplies!
Take care!
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someone here once said "what do you get when you sober up a horse thief? A sober horse thief".
I thought my RAGF would change. I thought sobriety would make her into a nicer person, she was in there somewhere I just knew it! Just before we broke up she had 18 months of sobriety. I thought if she had that much "time" (the most she'd every gotten) she'd drop all her "isms" and be a good person, the one I just knew was hiding in there. So I stuck it out, even though she was surley, irritable and I got virtually nothing out of the relationship. I was still waiting for the "reveal" which never came. It was then I finally realized I was living on vapors and expectations. I'd see a glimpse of something and hang onto that potential hoping things would get better. I had an expectation that with sober time, all her problems that were caused by addiction would go away. Today I have to see her for what and who she is; she is a person with a lot of mental health issues who is not capable of giving me the type of relationship I want. I can't change how she chooses to treat me but I don't have to accept it either. When I get too involved with her I end up getting hurt, so I try to stop putting myself in those situations. I"m learning. Someone told me that we teach people how to treat us by what we allow them to do/say to us. Changing that pattern involves us changing, not waiting for the other person to change how they treat us.
Anyway, after 8 years it sounds like you have a sober horse thief and should think about changing your response as others have said.
I thought my RAGF would change. I thought sobriety would make her into a nicer person, she was in there somewhere I just knew it! Just before we broke up she had 18 months of sobriety. I thought if she had that much "time" (the most she'd every gotten) she'd drop all her "isms" and be a good person, the one I just knew was hiding in there. So I stuck it out, even though she was surley, irritable and I got virtually nothing out of the relationship. I was still waiting for the "reveal" which never came. It was then I finally realized I was living on vapors and expectations. I'd see a glimpse of something and hang onto that potential hoping things would get better. I had an expectation that with sober time, all her problems that were caused by addiction would go away. Today I have to see her for what and who she is; she is a person with a lot of mental health issues who is not capable of giving me the type of relationship I want. I can't change how she chooses to treat me but I don't have to accept it either. When I get too involved with her I end up getting hurt, so I try to stop putting myself in those situations. I"m learning. Someone told me that we teach people how to treat us by what we allow them to do/say to us. Changing that pattern involves us changing, not waiting for the other person to change how they treat us.
Anyway, after 8 years it sounds like you have a sober horse thief and should think about changing your response as others have said.
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Hey Toddzilla - Regarding your posts about wanting to try counseling... I too wanted to "try it all" before throwing in the towel. However it takes 2 to tango. Don't be surprised if you show up to the dance alone. The day my ex broke up with me we were supposed to be having a talk about ways we could improve our relationship. I showed up with a well thought out list of what I wanted and was willing to do (counseling). She showed up empty handed and said she was checked out emotionally and had no energy to work on it so Sayonara.
Is your wife is interested/willing to go through the work of couple's counseling? If she is, great, but if not, make plans to take care of yourself and the kiddo there emotionally. Detach doesn't have to mean divorce, especially if you're not "done". No one can tell you when enough is enough but you.
Is your wife is interested/willing to go through the work of couple's counseling? If she is, great, but if not, make plans to take care of yourself and the kiddo there emotionally. Detach doesn't have to mean divorce, especially if you're not "done". No one can tell you when enough is enough but you.
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Originally Posted by Todzilla
No, I think you are probably right. Weird thing is, she's much more of a jerk in sobriety and very self-righteous about how she's grown. In many ways, life's better from her sobriety, but she's just a lot meaner, all the while preaching compassion and empathy.
And about the apologies and self-responsibility stuff.
The way Mrs. Hammer's dad explained it to me last year --
"She rarely says Thank You, and Never says she is Sorry."
Well true dat, FIL!
While we can sort of laugh about that, once you start to understand the Programs -- you can clearly see they are not even a little bit working them.
Much of the Steps are all about acknowledging the "Character Faults" and then repenting and working towards correcting the damage.
Part of the Mental Illness(es) make it very painful for them to be able to hold themselves accountable and correct themselves.
The AA Big Book describes that condition as:
"Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average."
That is the condition of the Mentally Ill Dry Drunk.
BUT Exactly None of That is Hammer's, nor Tod's Problem.
I would suggest you consider as a path forward for you (not about Her, or a we/us thing between you and her) -- that you consider digging deep into Alanon -- and really, fully, working the Steps (they are not just words on the wall, nor a chant to start the meeting).
That will tend to get YOUR mind very clear, and can help light your path ahead.
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I also am in the a similar dilemma Tod, although my AH is in treatment right now. But even when he is sober, he is sooo nice to everyone else, so reliable, just the guy that *everyone* likes....but when it comes to me, he is very controlling, jealous, verbally and emotionally abusive. Very abusive. The crap that has come out of this man's mouth is jaw dropping! A lot of times, it just leave me tears. I've actually started becoming numb to it and that is what scares me most. When someone can say such mean and hurtful things and I don't feel ANYTHING? And it's not that I don't feel anything because I'm recovered enough to not let it hurt me. It's because I'm so used to it now that it actually is "another typical day". Wow- how much that sucks, huh?
Well I've made up my mind that even if treatment does help him maintain sobriety, if the verbal and emotional abuse continue, I will still seek for a divorce. So here's to you and me Tod, may we not be "bozo the clown punching bags ANY LONGER!" Of course, your choice is your own, but I hope that you find yourself in a place where you are not subjected to that madness.
Well I've made up my mind that even if treatment does help him maintain sobriety, if the verbal and emotional abuse continue, I will still seek for a divorce. So here's to you and me Tod, may we not be "bozo the clown punching bags ANY LONGER!" Of course, your choice is your own, but I hope that you find yourself in a place where you are not subjected to that madness.
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Thanks y'all (I'm from the South) for your kind words and occasional tough love.
I'm pretty good at not taking her bait and not joining the fray, but I need to untether from her emotional state. She goes into her dark moods, not answering questions, avoiding eye contact, spending the whole day in her study and it sends me into a quiet tailspin. Sometimes, I've been able to detach and it feels great. Other times, I'm bound to her moods with battleship chains and can't get space.
Any advice?
I suspect this will be a key part of the twelve step work I have ahead.
I'm pretty good at not taking her bait and not joining the fray, but I need to untether from her emotional state. She goes into her dark moods, not answering questions, avoiding eye contact, spending the whole day in her study and it sends me into a quiet tailspin. Sometimes, I've been able to detach and it feels great. Other times, I'm bound to her moods with battleship chains and can't get space.
Any advice?
I suspect this will be a key part of the twelve step work I have ahead.
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Oh man I know that silent tailspin..
She isolates pretty often, just goes off into the sunroom by herself all evening.. mostly for distraction I guess, lots of hulu, facebook etc often till midnight and later. I've often found that provocative and difficult to detach from, makes me want to point stuff out, find that perfect comment that will get her back involved (lol meaning "guilt" her back). I've also had some success with detaching.. if nothing else at least we aren't fighting in front of our daughter. The alanon "next right thing" works for me... once the daughter is in bathed and in bed then I can go have some shop-time and get to bed early enough to have a hope of getting up in time to exercise next day.
I've gone in a few times just to say hi before going to bed.. usually its the daily show or SNL reruns on her laptop.. like she's just searching for distraction. The emotional wall has been going up for the last 6 years or so, ever taller ever thicker... when I'm feeling reasonable in tune w/ my program I do try to broach relationship/feelings conversation with her, mostly I don't get much of anything or worse "I don't know what to say". Its sad compared to the woman I married.. her emotional openness and confidence attracted me from day 1. From occasional comments it appears she is more open with her friends.. I pretty much get the wall. All that said she's less angry now than she was even 6 months ago- which is more comfortable for the daughter and I by a long shot.. but we are a long way apart.
I give full credit to the alanon step-work for keeping me out of the tailspin to the extent I've managed it... its a near constant challenge.
She isolates pretty often, just goes off into the sunroom by herself all evening.. mostly for distraction I guess, lots of hulu, facebook etc often till midnight and later. I've often found that provocative and difficult to detach from, makes me want to point stuff out, find that perfect comment that will get her back involved (lol meaning "guilt" her back). I've also had some success with detaching.. if nothing else at least we aren't fighting in front of our daughter. The alanon "next right thing" works for me... once the daughter is in bathed and in bed then I can go have some shop-time and get to bed early enough to have a hope of getting up in time to exercise next day.
I've gone in a few times just to say hi before going to bed.. usually its the daily show or SNL reruns on her laptop.. like she's just searching for distraction. The emotional wall has been going up for the last 6 years or so, ever taller ever thicker... when I'm feeling reasonable in tune w/ my program I do try to broach relationship/feelings conversation with her, mostly I don't get much of anything or worse "I don't know what to say". Its sad compared to the woman I married.. her emotional openness and confidence attracted me from day 1. From occasional comments it appears she is more open with her friends.. I pretty much get the wall. All that said she's less angry now than she was even 6 months ago- which is more comfortable for the daughter and I by a long shot.. but we are a long way apart.
I give full credit to the alanon step-work for keeping me out of the tailspin to the extent I've managed it... its a near constant challenge.
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