Are "living amends" a cop out?
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Miles from Nowhere
Posts: 396
growing up, saying "I'm sorry" was simply an excuse to keep doing the same thing over and over again. Without changed behavior, apologies are meaningless niceties.
And a lot of times, didn't even get the "I'm sorry."
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Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: right here, right now
Posts: 6,516
It bothers me because, growing up, saying "I'm sorry" was simply an excuse to keep doing the same thing over and over again. Without changed behavior, apologies are meaningless niceties.
Words mean nothing unless followed by action.
Trudgin
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 6,348
I was taught that stating I was wrong, what can I do to make you whole is a way to start the process. I do believe staying sober is making living amends, but doesn't correct what one did with a potential wake of damage.
Perhaps you may want to have a discussion with him if there is some deep resentments of bad behavior. You are owed the ability to bring up your issues about what he did to you, IMO.
Perhaps you may want to have a discussion with him if there is some deep resentments of bad behavior. You are owed the ability to bring up your issues about what he did to you, IMO.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 667
I'm sorry depends on the deed. I am fine with hearing I'm sorry for a minor mis-deed. I'm sorry I hit the mailbox. Is an accident. Trivial and minor in nature. No further action is required.
Hearing "I have been to AA 12 steps and I realize that alcohol has wrecked our relationship and I'm sorry. Requires something more substantial.
Amend means to change. An apology is the first step to recognizing there has been an error of conduct. That's step one. Changing a lifestyle or a pattern without recognizing to others what specifically you are doing it for, sort of begins to wash out the idea that the RA actually knows what they did wrong. Just living a clean life sort of sweeps under the rug whether they even know the wrong committed. Ignoring the apology part leaves the loved one wondering....What do they (The RA) actually get? Do they get that they have crushed the kids? Do they get they have crushed the trust that is needed? Do they get they have lost jobs over this? There may be a list of 50 things that the family feels like needs have an apology. Getting none, sort of cripples the idea that they can start to know what they are forgiving someone for.
To just say OK I am living right sort of of negates whether or not they can blame alcohol of if they have other issues that are in their lives.
Part of what I see that has gone wrong with a lot of problems these days is the general lack of accountability about as much as possible. It seems to be a pervasive part of our present day culture. I feel like we are seeing these results as the new norm in more and more parts of our current social fabric.
Mom (Dad), I'm pregnant and I'm sorry....kinda falls short of what went wrong.
Hearing "I have been to AA 12 steps and I realize that alcohol has wrecked our relationship and I'm sorry. Requires something more substantial.
Amend means to change. An apology is the first step to recognizing there has been an error of conduct. That's step one. Changing a lifestyle or a pattern without recognizing to others what specifically you are doing it for, sort of begins to wash out the idea that the RA actually knows what they did wrong. Just living a clean life sort of sweeps under the rug whether they even know the wrong committed. Ignoring the apology part leaves the loved one wondering....What do they (The RA) actually get? Do they get that they have crushed the kids? Do they get they have crushed the trust that is needed? Do they get they have lost jobs over this? There may be a list of 50 things that the family feels like needs have an apology. Getting none, sort of cripples the idea that they can start to know what they are forgiving someone for.
To just say OK I am living right sort of of negates whether or not they can blame alcohol of if they have other issues that are in their lives.
Part of what I see that has gone wrong with a lot of problems these days is the general lack of accountability about as much as possible. It seems to be a pervasive part of our present day culture. I feel like we are seeing these results as the new norm in more and more parts of our current social fabric.
Mom (Dad), I'm pregnant and I'm sorry....kinda falls short of what went wrong.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,792
Dear Jazzfish
I totally understand what you are saying.
My Dad passed away before he could ever make real amends to our family. We never even got a halfa**ed apology.
I sometimes wonder if my life would have been better if I had gone no contact with him.
I totally understand what you are saying.
My Dad passed away before he could ever make real amends to our family. We never even got a halfa**ed apology.
I sometimes wonder if my life would have been better if I had gone no contact with him.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Silicon Valley, CA
Posts: 2,066
Amends are talked about frequently in my home group. Not about the alcoholic making amends but US making amends. Amend simply means to change.
It is my understanding that a living amends isn't trying to change the past or make up for lost time or apologizing at all. It's simply doing your best to be a better, different person. Being a person that doesn't have a reason to apologize for being abusive. A living amends is putting into action all of the stuff they're learning through whatever program they're working.
I think apologizing is actually staying in the past.
Personal example: I don't need to apologize to my husband for all the times I've berated him about putting dishes in the wrong places (or putting them away still dirty), and I no longer feel the need to be upset when I find that my spatula is not in it's normal spot. I have more than one spatula and I can communicate nicely where I personally prefer the spatula to live.
*and even though that's what I would feel like apologizing for it probably is not the exact same stuff that he wants me to apologize for anyway. I'll just be a nicer person to him moving forward.
It is my understanding that a living amends isn't trying to change the past or make up for lost time or apologizing at all. It's simply doing your best to be a better, different person. Being a person that doesn't have a reason to apologize for being abusive. A living amends is putting into action all of the stuff they're learning through whatever program they're working.
I think apologizing is actually staying in the past.
Personal example: I don't need to apologize to my husband for all the times I've berated him about putting dishes in the wrong places (or putting them away still dirty), and I no longer feel the need to be upset when I find that my spatula is not in it's normal spot. I have more than one spatula and I can communicate nicely where I personally prefer the spatula to live.
*and even though that's what I would feel like apologizing for it probably is not the exact same stuff that he wants me to apologize for anyway. I'll just be a nicer person to him moving forward.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 667
Originally Posted by Stung 
Personal example: I don't need to apologize to my husband for all the times I've berated him about putting dishes in the wrong places (or putting them away still dirty), and I no longer feel the need to be upset when I find that my spatula is not in it's normal spot. I have more than one spatula and I can communicate nicely where I personally prefer the spatula to live.
To just no longer berate him for it, for me, would only make me wonder how long it would be til it happened again.
I have left as reminder, a hole in my wall from a drunken tirade thrown because I left a dome light on in a car. A car that I was never in. I have yet to get an apology for this. So does this mean I should wonder if my AGF GETS THIS?
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Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Silicon Valley, CA
Posts: 2,066
I have left as reminder, a hole in my wall from a drunken tirade thrown because I left a dome light on in a car.
P.S. What she does or doesn't get (your feelings) is not something she should be focusing on. You might be better rewarded by focusing on your own feelings and healing yourself from your girlfriend punching a hole in the wall.
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Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 667
TY for the input Stung. So by this premise, there is no relevance for the RA to care or be concerned that they need to apologize for anything? Patch the hole up, paint the wall and it all goes away?
Everything can be turned into an offense that needs no recognition if we try hard enough. Isn't that kind of what perpetuates the whole distorted reality of right and wrong the AC lives in in the first place? No consequence=good. Repeat when possible. Manipulate as necessary to = No consequence= Good?
And if I buy into this, which I'm willing to. Then do I still need to apologize when I feel I have done something wrong, and I try to make sure I never repeat that event again?
IDK I have never in my life had anyone aside from my AGF tell me I'm wrecking their lives, their family, their friends, their job, their reputation. So this is new ground for me here. My AGF has managed to wreck most everything she has personally had in her life, before ever meeting me. It's her normal.
And since its best I focus on my feelings. My feelings are, personally since I'm not an AC, I'd think of myself as an a$$h*** if I never tried to apologize when I was in err and tried to do better going forward. Maybe I have been wrong all this time.
Thank you for your input. Gave me a new perspective I had not considered.
Everything can be turned into an offense that needs no recognition if we try hard enough. Isn't that kind of what perpetuates the whole distorted reality of right and wrong the AC lives in in the first place? No consequence=good. Repeat when possible. Manipulate as necessary to = No consequence= Good?
And if I buy into this, which I'm willing to. Then do I still need to apologize when I feel I have done something wrong, and I try to make sure I never repeat that event again?
IDK I have never in my life had anyone aside from my AGF tell me I'm wrecking their lives, their family, their friends, their job, their reputation. So this is new ground for me here. My AGF has managed to wreck most everything she has personally had in her life, before ever meeting me. It's her normal.
And since its best I focus on my feelings. My feelings are, personally since I'm not an AC, I'd think of myself as an a$$h*** if I never tried to apologize when I was in err and tried to do better going forward. Maybe I have been wrong all this time.
Thank you for your input. Gave me a new perspective I had not considered.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Iowa
Posts: 3,050
Back to the question of living amends, when I made my Alanon amends, I was unable to simply apologize for some of my wrongs (mainly to my ex husband who passed away, but also others).
Because of that, I practice living amends in many situations. For example, I encourage my oldest son to maintain a relationship with his paternal grandparents and facilitate visits and phone calls between them. I tell him funny stories about his dad and share memories from when he was too small to remember. I remind him that his dad always loved him.
Not sure if that's a cop out, but it's the best I can do for both of them, and hopefully that counts for something.
As far as receiving amends, none of my qualifiers have ever worked a recovery program or attempted any amends. My brother told me that when our dad quit drinking he said (after making a HUGE deal about the fact that he had quit), "What did I ever do to you kids?" Then he moved and didn't leave a forwarding address. Some people just don't have it in them I guess.
Because of that, I practice living amends in many situations. For example, I encourage my oldest son to maintain a relationship with his paternal grandparents and facilitate visits and phone calls between them. I tell him funny stories about his dad and share memories from when he was too small to remember. I remind him that his dad always loved him.
Not sure if that's a cop out, but it's the best I can do for both of them, and hopefully that counts for something.
As far as receiving amends, none of my qualifiers have ever worked a recovery program or attempted any amends. My brother told me that when our dad quit drinking he said (after making a HUGE deal about the fact that he had quit), "What did I ever do to you kids?" Then he moved and didn't leave a forwarding address. Some people just don't have it in them I guess.
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Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: MD
Posts: 658
I could make a list of the things that my RAW could apologize for.. acting out in various ways in front of our daughter, screaming rants, drama. Quite painful stuff some of it that I could certainly work up a head of steam over. But I also know about my demands about her behavior, constant judging of her every action, anger, nagging- over quite a few years also.
I've apologized for various things- she has too- but my big win is changed behavior on my part and I am grateful for hers. I like the emotional peace and quiet, the tentative emotional reconnection instead of open warfare, this stuff is not something I need to be right about.
My sponsor emphasized the value of living amends- that is, changed behavior. As he put it, the change is not conditional.. its a choice about behavior & attitude. The later step is the formal amends if the step work & situation indicates it is needed. What sold me on him was a share of his in one meeting where he talked about people in recovery show continence in their behavior. Thats what I want.
I've apologized for various things- she has too- but my big win is changed behavior on my part and I am grateful for hers. I like the emotional peace and quiet, the tentative emotional reconnection instead of open warfare, this stuff is not something I need to be right about.
My sponsor emphasized the value of living amends- that is, changed behavior. As he put it, the change is not conditional.. its a choice about behavior & attitude. The later step is the formal amends if the step work & situation indicates it is needed. What sold me on him was a share of his in one meeting where he talked about people in recovery show continence in their behavior. Thats what I want.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: W Washington
Posts: 11,589
going back to the OP:
This is a question that has been bothering me for a while. My dad is nearly 30 years sober without a single relapse. However, his amend to me was a curt "I'm sorry for all that stuff before." Other than that, there was no change in our relationship. I know I cannot control his actions, but it irks me that he may have it in his head that simply saying sorry and staying sober is enough.
that may be the best he is capable of......sobriety isn't sainthood. 30 year of NOT drinking is quite a feat for any alcoholic. you've at least had the gift of a dad who is not drunk stumbling raving or passed out. maybe he didn't transform into a wonderful compassionate being, but he didn't die wrapped around a tree either.
my mom never did quit. her liver gave out at the fairly young age of 57. left me with that nagging question - why wasn't I enough to even try to quit and stick around? we never had the death bed made for tv moment where she said she was sorry.....for anything. never said she loved me, or what a great daughter I was or how much she loved my daughter, her only grandchild. she'd be 80 now.
we set ourselves up for a world of pain if we EXPECT that once THEY get sober WE will get OUR amends. it isn't automatic like a 10 cent gas discount when we buy groceries. we also can do ourselves a favor by not getting a preconceived notion of what THEIR sobriety is going to look like. or how they will CHANGE. sober guarantees NOTHING except not getting drunk anymore.
This is a question that has been bothering me for a while. My dad is nearly 30 years sober without a single relapse. However, his amend to me was a curt "I'm sorry for all that stuff before." Other than that, there was no change in our relationship. I know I cannot control his actions, but it irks me that he may have it in his head that simply saying sorry and staying sober is enough.
that may be the best he is capable of......sobriety isn't sainthood. 30 year of NOT drinking is quite a feat for any alcoholic. you've at least had the gift of a dad who is not drunk stumbling raving or passed out. maybe he didn't transform into a wonderful compassionate being, but he didn't die wrapped around a tree either.
my mom never did quit. her liver gave out at the fairly young age of 57. left me with that nagging question - why wasn't I enough to even try to quit and stick around? we never had the death bed made for tv moment where she said she was sorry.....for anything. never said she loved me, or what a great daughter I was or how much she loved my daughter, her only grandchild. she'd be 80 now.
we set ourselves up for a world of pain if we EXPECT that once THEY get sober WE will get OUR amends. it isn't automatic like a 10 cent gas discount when we buy groceries. we also can do ourselves a favor by not getting a preconceived notion of what THEIR sobriety is going to look like. or how they will CHANGE. sober guarantees NOTHING except not getting drunk anymore.
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Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 667
Originally Posted by schnappi99
I've apologized for various things- she has too- but my big win is changed behavior on my part and I am grateful for hers. I like the emotional peace and quiet, the tentative emotional reconnection instead of open warfare, this stuff is not something I need to be right about.
This may be a simple example of how 2 people just have an incompatibility in morals. Has nothing to do with them being a RA or not.
In my experience with my AGF, she demanded apologies for a list of I can't keep track of so many things. So they have value to her.
You would hope that you get some apologies handed back at the stage where she is making Amends. Expecting too much it seems.
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Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Iowa
Posts: 3,050
Originally Posted by Hangnbyathread
Gosh yes of course it accounts for something.
May I ask you, is (or was if he passed) your dad a bitter lonely person even after he stopped drinking?
May I ask you, is (or was if he passed) your dad a bitter lonely person even after he stopped drinking?
Member
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 667
Originally Posted by ladyscribbler
I'm pretty sure he's still alive. Haven't spoken to him in over 15 years after I found out he stole my college fund. He's never met my sons. He remarried when I was 12 and has a replacement family- wife, stepdaughter, 3 or 4 grandkids. I have no idea if he's bitter or lonely. I hope not.
He is 62, broke, twice divorced, several other failed relationships, kids won't talk to him. And has hatred toward anyone that ask him to discuss his plight. I caught him trying to con money from our 87 Y/O mom right after dad died. I tried to ask him Look if you are in some kind of trouble, maybe I can help. But I can't help what we don't know about.
Leave me alone!!!! OK well I need to protect mom here so know that everything she spends I have full view of. Ef You you SOB!!
So his family is done with him. I really sort of quit wondering how he will end up, To my knowledge he isn't an abuser of substances...only people. You just have to let them go. Hard for a mom to do to a child. Or a daughter to do to a father.
Thank you for sharing with me lady. Please have a happy holiday with those that matter.
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Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 765
Jazz fish
It was only the last several years in AA that folks really began to understand the instructions for recovery, including amends. Lots of oldtimers were never able to benefit in the way they are today. But today, folks in AA do know where the instructions are and if they're willing, they can do them.
BB of AA clearly says a remorseful mumbling of "I'm sorry" doesn't fit the bill. This is clearly outlined in Step 9, Big Book.
But out recovery is not about what we are getting from others; it's about this: have I done my own program? Am I doing the steps myself in order with a sponsor? Am I willing to make amends to him and others?
Give, not get.
It was only the last several years in AA that folks really began to understand the instructions for recovery, including amends. Lots of oldtimers were never able to benefit in the way they are today. But today, folks in AA do know where the instructions are and if they're willing, they can do them.
BB of AA clearly says a remorseful mumbling of "I'm sorry" doesn't fit the bill. This is clearly outlined in Step 9, Big Book.
But out recovery is not about what we are getting from others; it's about this: have I done my own program? Am I doing the steps myself in order with a sponsor? Am I willing to make amends to him and others?
Give, not get.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 6,262
Some people don't have the ego strength to even say that. He said he was sorry and there's really nothing he can say that will change the past. Suggest focusing on what he does and says that's right, the positive in him, instead of wishing for him to be the person you want him to be.
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