Are "living amends" a cop out?
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Are "living amends" a cop out?
This is a question that has been bothering me for a while. My dad is nearly 30 years sober without a single relapse. However, his amend to me was a curt "I'm sorry for all that stuff before." Other than that, there was no change in our relationship. I know I cannot control his actions, but it irks me that he may have it in his head that simply saying sorry and staying sober is enough.
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Some people do have that in their heads that that is enough.
Originally Posted by jazzfish 
This is a question that has been bothering me for a while. My dad is nearly 30 years sober without a single relapse. However, his amend to me was a curt "I'm sorry for all that stuff before." Other than that, there was no change in our relationship. I know I cannot control his actions, but it irks me that he may have it in his head that simply saying sorry and staying sober is enough.
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I have a friend who got basically that same phrase from her RA father.
She chose to see it as "that was what he was able to give as far as apology/amends, and I can either accept it and have a relationship with my now-RA father, or I can determine it's not good enough and stay distant from him."
She chose to accept the very small and puny but still apology.
And I think that's the only thing you can do, determine whether it's enough for you or not.
She chose to see it as "that was what he was able to give as far as apology/amends, and I can either accept it and have a relationship with my now-RA father, or I can determine it's not good enough and stay distant from him."
She chose to accept the very small and puny but still apology.
And I think that's the only thing you can do, determine whether it's enough for you or not.
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Originally Posted by lillamy
And I think that's the only thing you can do, determine whether it's enough for you or not.
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I think of "Living Amends" as something active - a way of using action to show your intentions are more than just words. So to me a simple apology (whether good enough or not) is just that - an apology.
Living Amends to me is making the effort to improve the relationship going forward, not just staying in a stagnant place. My RAF changed his behaviors in sobriety in ways like - visiting my gram a few times a week because they'd not had a healthy relationship prior to his recovery, mentoring my male cousins in things like hunting/fishing/etc., teaching my sister how to use tools (lol), making time for date nights with mom..... it was about repairing & rebuilding those relationships & also stepping outside of himself by making time for charity and those in need as well.
Living Amends to me is making the effort to improve the relationship going forward, not just staying in a stagnant place. My RAF changed his behaviors in sobriety in ways like - visiting my gram a few times a week because they'd not had a healthy relationship prior to his recovery, mentoring my male cousins in things like hunting/fishing/etc., teaching my sister how to use tools (lol), making time for date nights with mom..... it was about repairing & rebuilding those relationships & also stepping outside of himself by making time for charity and those in need as well.
Better when never is never
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Originally Posted by FireSprite
Living Amends to me is making the effort to improve the relationship going forward, not just staying in a stagnant place.
So to me a simple apology (whether good enough or not) is just that - an apology.
So to me a simple apology (whether good enough or not) is just that - an apology.
I also have heard that an apology is simply a notice than an amend is coming.
Better when never is never
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Originally Posted by tomsteve
Did HE say that is all that is necessary?
But the real problem isn't him. It's you.
Why does it bother you??
But the real problem isn't him. It's you.
Why does it bother you??
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Hi all amends... that is such a tiny word for a life of verbal or harm to a child or loved one or just your life.. I loved my Pop very much.. miss him every day.. at times Glad that he was rough on me.. for at 5 foot 6 inches and 1995lbs even in the day time you don't want to push that button that turns me in to an Old Marine DI... for some times it is needed.. and yet with all conviction I can say from the bottom of my heart even after 15 years of his death... I am glad the Son of a B is gone for he no longer can harm my Mom my Sisters the GrandKids and most of all the Daughter that watched him so carefull all of her life.. put my small feet into his foot steps for I wanted to be like my Pop.. for he loved his family his town and all of the people in it so much.. except when he was drinking and then he hated everything so much... amends.. we will have ours the day I get to go have coffee and donuts with him and feed my Grandpas cows... amends... a word that is so small and holds so much .. in so many directions. love ardy..
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A living amend is not about saying "I am sorry" and just not drinking. It is about changing one's behavior and being consistent about it.
An example would be someone who used to throw their empty cans out everywhere. Once they are sober and realize it was bad, who could they apologize to? Not really anyone but they could make a living amend by participating in their neighborhood clean ups (or organizing one) and by making sure they do not litter from now on.
An example would be someone who used to throw their empty cans out everywhere. Once they are sober and realize it was bad, who could they apologize to? Not really anyone but they could make a living amend by participating in their neighborhood clean ups (or organizing one) and by making sure they do not litter from now on.
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Originally Posted by FireSprite
I think of "Living Amends" as something active - a way of using action to show your intentions are more than just words. So to me a simple apology (whether good enough or not) is just that - an apology.
Living Amends to me is making the effort to improve the relationship going forward, not just staying in a stagnant place. My RAF changed his behaviors in sobriety in ways like - visiting my gram a few times a week because they'd not had a healthy relationship prior to his recovery, mentoring my male cousins in things like hunting/fishing/etc., teaching my sister how to use tools (lol), making time for date nights with mom..... it was about repairing & rebuilding those relationships & also stepping outside of himself by making time for charity and those in need as well.
Living Amends to me is making the effort to improve the relationship going forward, not just staying in a stagnant place. My RAF changed his behaviors in sobriety in ways like - visiting my gram a few times a week because they'd not had a healthy relationship prior to his recovery, mentoring my male cousins in things like hunting/fishing/etc., teaching my sister how to use tools (lol), making time for date nights with mom..... it was about repairing & rebuilding those relationships & also stepping outside of himself by making time for charity and those in need as well.
Agree totally with this. It's possible your dad does not have the ability to give you more. my mother was not an alcoholic, she just didn't have the ability to give me what I needed emotionally. My psychiatrist termed her a "dry tit". She wasnt withholding, it just wasn't in her to give.
I found that one bit the most important part I got out of 10 years of fairly productive therapy. It really allowed me to move on. She did the best she could. She had a lot of damage I didn't know about nor would I have had the ability to understand fully. Somehow, I came to the ability to Forgive her and forgive myself.
I hope this helps. It was very freeing for me.
love from Lenina
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Originally Posted by FireSprite
I think of "Living Amends" as something active - a way of using action to show your intentions are more than just words. So to me a simple apology (whether good enough or not) is just that - an apology.
Living Amends to me is making the effort to improve the relationship going forward, not just staying in a stagnant place. My RAF changed his behaviors in sobriety in ways like - visiting my gram a few times a week because they'd not had a healthy relationship prior to his recovery, mentoring my male cousins in things like hunting/fishing/etc., teaching my sister how to use tools (lol), making time for date nights with mom..... it was about repairing & rebuilding those relationships & also stepping outside of himself by making time for charity and those in need as well.
Living Amends to me is making the effort to improve the relationship going forward, not just staying in a stagnant place. My RAF changed his behaviors in sobriety in ways like - visiting my gram a few times a week because they'd not had a healthy relationship prior to his recovery, mentoring my male cousins in things like hunting/fishing/etc., teaching my sister how to use tools (lol), making time for date nights with mom..... it was about repairing & rebuilding those relationships & also stepping outside of himself by making time for charity and those in need as well.
Agree totally with this. It's possible your dad does not have the ability to give you more. my mother was not an alcoholic, she just didn't have the ability to give me what I needed emotionally. My psychiatrist termed her a "dry tit". She wasnt withholding, it just wasn't in her to give.
I found that one bit the most important part I got out of 10 years of fairly productive therapy. It really allowed me to move on. She did the best she could. She had a lot of damage I didn't know about nor would I have had the ability to understand fully. Somehow, I came to the ability to Forgive her and forgive myself.
I hope this helps. It was very freeing for me.
love from Lenina
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Originally Posted by jazzfish
It bothers me because, growing up, saying "I'm sorry" was simply an excuse to keep doing the same thing over and over again. Without changed behavior, apologies are meaningless niceties.
Does he still do the same mean/abusive things to you over and over today or are you referring to what it was like when he was drinking?
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Originally Posted by Lenina
Agree totally with this. It's possible your dad does not have the ability to give you more. my mother was not an alcoholic, she just didn't have the ability to give me what I needed emotionally. My psychiatrist termed her a "dry tit". She wasnt withholding, it just wasn't in her to give.
I found that one bit the most important part I got out of 10 years of fairly productive therapy. It really allowed me to move on. She did the best she could. She had a lot of damage I didn't know about nor would I have had the ability to understand fully. Somehow, I came to the ability to Forgive her and forgive myself.
I hope this helps. It was very freeing for me.
love from Lenina
I found that one bit the most important part I got out of 10 years of fairly productive therapy. It really allowed me to move on. She did the best she could. She had a lot of damage I didn't know about nor would I have had the ability to understand fully. Somehow, I came to the ability to Forgive her and forgive myself.
I hope this helps. It was very freeing for me.
love from Lenina
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Originally Posted by Thumper
Does he still do the same mean/abusive things to you over and over today or are you referring to what it was like when he was drinking?
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The living amends like so much in AA is an attempt to take a very diverse situation and make it understandable with a descriptive phrase or saying. I am not being critical I hope, just making my observation. One type of living amend may be very different than another. Just as one sober alcoholic is very different than another.
I have 4 great kids who are all grown and who were all smaller when I drank, last drink 15 years ago. Three of them are very warm and engaged with me and one is quite stand offish and while we try, it just doesn't seem to "click." I sat each child down when I got sober and explained why I was no longer drinking and why I was hoping that my change would make their lives better.
My point is, I wonder if I never drank would one out of four still not connect with me and I with her? The old "sober up a horse thief and you have a sober horse thief" analogy. I think like life in general we just need to be the best person we can be, whether we are the previous drunk or the person who lived with us.
The difficulty isn't with "living amends" it is with living with each other. Communication and a wee bit of a thick skin goes a long way.
Cheers,
Jon
I have 4 great kids who are all grown and who were all smaller when I drank, last drink 15 years ago. Three of them are very warm and engaged with me and one is quite stand offish and while we try, it just doesn't seem to "click." I sat each child down when I got sober and explained why I was no longer drinking and why I was hoping that my change would make their lives better.
My point is, I wonder if I never drank would one out of four still not connect with me and I with her? The old "sober up a horse thief and you have a sober horse thief" analogy. I think like life in general we just need to be the best person we can be, whether we are the previous drunk or the person who lived with us.
The difficulty isn't with "living amends" it is with living with each other. Communication and a wee bit of a thick skin goes a long way.
Cheers,
Jon
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My X usto do that, then if anything would come up later it would be, "What, I said I was sorry." Problem was, he was doing the same crap over and over. I think you just have to look at actions and ignore what comes out of their mouths.
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Originally Posted by jazzfish
No, he was never mean or abusive, just quiet, passive and not engaged. I would say when he was drinking, he would sit in his chair all night, drinking and not saying a word. Now, he will sit in his chair all night, not drink, but still not say a word.
What were your grand parents like? Was your grand father like this ???
Having asked this, why not let your resentment against him go??
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I like what Jfanagle had to say. yes, a horse thief gets sober and will stay a sober horse unless we do the work. I had to work in both Therapy and in AA. AA is very good for helping us repair the damage we inflicted in our addiction. to me, that is what Recovery is about, not just the abstention.
Also, for me, this is where a daily inventory is useful. looking over my day and seeing where I did good and where I maybe fell short. This reduces my anxiety levels too. And my guilt.
Most of my living amends today are about honoring those who I hurt or caused damage to and cannot do a direct amends. I have to live my Life as honorably as I can. There is someone who closed the door on me, I do not blame her! I hope some day she will forgive me or at the very least, move on enough to let me back into the margins of her life. Hope this makes sense.
Love from Lenina
Also, for me, this is where a daily inventory is useful. looking over my day and seeing where I did good and where I maybe fell short. This reduces my anxiety levels too. And my guilt.
Most of my living amends today are about honoring those who I hurt or caused damage to and cannot do a direct amends. I have to live my Life as honorably as I can. There is someone who closed the door on me, I do not blame her! I hope some day she will forgive me or at the very least, move on enough to let me back into the margins of her life. Hope this makes sense.
Love from Lenina
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Originally Posted by jazzfish
No, he was never mean or abusive, just quiet, passive and not engaged. I would say when he was drinking, he would sit in his chair all night, drinking and not saying a word. Now, he will sit in his chair all night, not drink, but still not say a word.
My own father was like that. Very much so and was up until his death. I don't think he'd spent a minute of his life being any other way. Lots of people in my extended family are. I married a man like that and his family is even more like it than mine. My children are like that and while I like to think I'm not - I'm sure I am compared to what other people consider open, intimate, and communicative.
Lots of severe alcoholism, codependency, and dysfunction all over both sides of my family (and my ex's) so not all that surprising really.
This may be who he is. If he never becomes the warm and engaging person you long for him to be how will you move forward? What will bring you the most healing because sometimes we have to heal ourselves, and the little child that we once were and still resides in our hearts. You deserve that sense of freedom/peace.
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