I've decided I'm not a "codie", lol.
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I don't think "expectations" is a dirty word, so to speak. I expect my children to behave a particular way or do certain things. I expect certain things of myself, my employer, etc. And I expect certain things from my marriage/husband, alcoholic or not.
I do not subscribe to the belief that I have an issue simply because I have these expectations, these are normal, healthy expectations. I'm talking about honesty, respect, fidility, etc....not chores, gifts, etc. I do not believe that because one is an addict that it gives them a pass on these things.
The conflict comes in when I expect these things and the other person does not live up to those expectations. For children who are still developing their personality and character, these conflicts are instructional, constructive applications that shape and mold them into functional members of society. For employers, expectations are written out in employee handbooks. You do this____, they do that____. Very cut and dry, simple. You are either a good employee or bad and you reap the rewards or consequences. You have a good employer or bad and you stay or move on to green pastures.
In marriage, conflict arises....there are 2 possible scenarios that I see as healthy. 1. both parties recognize the conflict and mutually agree to reconcile or 2. both parties recognize there's a conflict(although may not agree to the nature of the conflict) and do not agree to reconcile.
IMO, unhealthy behavior is recognizing that there is a conflict, and you are the only one trying to fix the problem with a person who is unwilling/able to reconcile the differences.
I do not subscribe to the belief that I have an issue simply because I have these expectations, these are normal, healthy expectations. I'm talking about honesty, respect, fidility, etc....not chores, gifts, etc. I do not believe that because one is an addict that it gives them a pass on these things.
The conflict comes in when I expect these things and the other person does not live up to those expectations. For children who are still developing their personality and character, these conflicts are instructional, constructive applications that shape and mold them into functional members of society. For employers, expectations are written out in employee handbooks. You do this____, they do that____. Very cut and dry, simple. You are either a good employee or bad and you reap the rewards or consequences. You have a good employer or bad and you stay or move on to green pastures.
In marriage, conflict arises....there are 2 possible scenarios that I see as healthy. 1. both parties recognize the conflict and mutually agree to reconcile or 2. both parties recognize there's a conflict(although may not agree to the nature of the conflict) and do not agree to reconcile.
IMO, unhealthy behavior is recognizing that there is a conflict, and you are the only one trying to fix the problem with a person who is unwilling/able to reconcile the differences.
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I can only speak of my own experience here, but my addict was VERY convincing. He was SO sorry, he wanted SO much to get better, he would do ANYTHING.
People didn't lie in my household growing up, so I think I was conditioned to believe people. It took me a long time to realize that people we love are not always honest, and that people who say they love us might not have our best interests in mind.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that people suffering from addiction are very good at covering it up and making it look to the outside world like they are conforming to "expectations." They have to be if they want to be able to continue their addiction, especially if it is to an illegal substance.
Paige, you are spot with your second option -- "both parties recognize there's a conflict (although may not agree to the nature of the conflict) and do not agree to reconcile."
But what happens when one person sees the conflict but the other person pretends that there is no problem? Or projects everything right back onto the first person. Or agrees to reconcile but 3 months later falls into addiction again?
This is where the craziness of addiction lies, and where codependence plants its roots.
People didn't lie in my household growing up, so I think I was conditioned to believe people. It took me a long time to realize that people we love are not always honest, and that people who say they love us might not have our best interests in mind.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that people suffering from addiction are very good at covering it up and making it look to the outside world like they are conforming to "expectations." They have to be if they want to be able to continue their addiction, especially if it is to an illegal substance.
Paige, you are spot with your second option -- "both parties recognize there's a conflict (although may not agree to the nature of the conflict) and do not agree to reconcile."
But what happens when one person sees the conflict but the other person pretends that there is no problem? Or projects everything right back onto the first person. Or agrees to reconcile but 3 months later falls into addiction again?
This is where the craziness of addiction lies, and where codependence plants its roots.
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Originally Posted by Needabreak 
Paige, you are spot with your second option -- "both parties recognize there's a conflict (although may not agree to the nature of the conflict) and do not agree to reconcile."
But what happens when one person sees the conflict but the other person pretends that there is no problem? Or projects everything right back onto the first person. Or agrees to reconcile but 3 months later falls into addiction again?
This is where the craziness of addiction lies, and where codependence plants its roots.
But for those of us with relatively normal, healthy upbringings....I DO think this is how it begins.
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So reading this, I have a question for y'all:
When you say "I'm not a codie" -- do you mean that like "I'm not Hispanic" or like "I'm not sick"?
I view codependency as an unhealthy response to an unhealthy relationship, but maybe that's wrong? I don't see it as... OK, so in Spanish this would have been perfectly clear but the English language is different....
Do you see "codependency" as your identity -- that is, something you are, unchangeable, that you need to be aware of in your relationships sort of like... being hard of hearing? Or, for that matter, being an alcoholic?
Or do you see codependency as a behavior that you start engaging in when you are in a dysfunctional relationship?
I've always seen it as the latter. Like the OP said -- I was raised to be caring and pay attention to other people's needs. That's not codependency to me, that's being a nice and polite human being. I became codependent when in a series of relationships with addicts and men with mental illness. I think I built an identity on "fixing" and "being strong" -- but it really was a reaction to a bad relationship rather than who I was.
Does that make sense?
When you say "I'm not a codie" -- do you mean that like "I'm not Hispanic" or like "I'm not sick"?
I view codependency as an unhealthy response to an unhealthy relationship, but maybe that's wrong? I don't see it as... OK, so in Spanish this would have been perfectly clear but the English language is different....
Do you see "codependency" as your identity -- that is, something you are, unchangeable, that you need to be aware of in your relationships sort of like... being hard of hearing? Or, for that matter, being an alcoholic?
Or do you see codependency as a behavior that you start engaging in when you are in a dysfunctional relationship?
I've always seen it as the latter. Like the OP said -- I was raised to be caring and pay attention to other people's needs. That's not codependency to me, that's being a nice and polite human being. I became codependent when in a series of relationships with addicts and men with mental illness. I think I built an identity on "fixing" and "being strong" -- but it really was a reaction to a bad relationship rather than who I was.
Does that make sense?
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I dunno. I think you can have some of the traits without being full boar codependent. I think my biggest flaw is being controlling, not codependent. Do I still have some codependent behaviors? Absolutely! But I also do not readily label myself as a codependent either. I've read part of CoNoMo and some of it resonated with me but a lot of it did not. Some people resonate with the entire book and highlight sections and read them many times. I'm much too isolated, narcissistic and controlling to truly be a full codependent. But put me in a house with an active alcoholic husband and I'll definitely show anyone how codependent I can be.
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I definitely see codependency as a behavior that can develop over time. We aren't born codependent. I do believe that the way we are raised influences these tendencies (in formative years). Then the relationships that we participate in can cultivate the codependent behavior, in those with the tendencies or those without but chose to stay in a toxic relationship for too long. A pickle doesn't start out a pickle, it's a cucumber. Over time with exposure to vinegar, it becomes pickled....but keep it away from vinegar and it remains a cucumber.
When I look at my AH, I believe the same thing. I don't label alcoholism as a "disease" in the conventional sense of the word. (much to my AH's dismay) He wasn't born an addict (yes, I know some babies are). But his influences in life, along with their issues, helped to form a person highly supceptible to becoming an addict. He didn't have a normal, healthy family unit. Had I been brought up in his family, I too, might have become an addict. If he had been brought up in my family, he may have never developed a problem with alcohol.
When I look at my AH, I believe the same thing. I don't label alcoholism as a "disease" in the conventional sense of the word. (much to my AH's dismay) He wasn't born an addict (yes, I know some babies are). But his influences in life, along with their issues, helped to form a person highly supceptible to becoming an addict. He didn't have a normal, healthy family unit. Had I been brought up in his family, I too, might have become an addict. If he had been brought up in my family, he may have never developed a problem with alcohol.
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My favorite explanation of what "co-dependency" is--is that it has more to do with the lack of relationship with the self than with the relationship with another.
It seems, to me, to be a broad range of possible behaviors---that become unhealthy when they enter into the realm of denying or neglecting our own needs in favor of the needs of another.
Just my way of looking at it. I think of the word "co-dependency" as a kind f shorthand for discussion purposes.
dandylion
It seems, to me, to be a broad range of possible behaviors---that become unhealthy when they enter into the realm of denying or neglecting our own needs in favor of the needs of another.
Just my way of looking at it. I think of the word "co-dependency" as a kind f shorthand for discussion purposes.
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Originally Posted by paige73
IMO, unhealthy behavior is recognizing that there is a conflict, and you are the only one trying to fix the problem with a person who is unwilling/able to reconcile the differences.
I stayed. That is the first glaring sign that I have a problem. I stayed before I was married and I stayed for a long time after I was married.
There are a few people that I have been close to since childhood and they have great spouses and healthy relationships. I look back and it wasn't because they never crossed paths with the wrong guys or had crappy relationships - it is because they let the wrong ones go.
Until I filed for divorce at 40yo I had never let anyone go. They came into my life and there they stayed (in whatever capacity they wanted) until they walked out. It is my default. I don't pursue people, follow people, or leave people.
There are so many similarities in people that identify as having co-dependent tendencies. When I read the books and started my process I felt such relief and support with that discovery. It is also layered, complicated, and individual based on various life experiences and personality traits.
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Originally Posted by dandylion
My favorite explanation of what "co-dependency" is--is that it has more to do with the lack of relationship with the self than with the relationship with another.
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Originally Posted by lillamy
I've always seen it as the latter. Like the OP said -- I was raised to be caring and pay attention to other people's needs. That's not codependency to me, that's being a nice and polite human being. I became codependent when in a series of relationships with addicts and men with mental illness. I think I built an identity on "fixing" and "being strong" -- but it really was a reaction to a bad relationship rather than who I was.
Does that make sense?
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Originally Posted by readerbaby71
I don't care for word "codie". I am not a fan of Codependent No More. There is a balance between caring about someone and doing positive things for them because you want to, and enabling or staying mired in dysfunctional behavior. Not everything you do for someone is "codie" just because they're an alcoholic/addict. Everyone needs help and support from their loved ones sometimes.
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I use labels all the time to help me navigate through the hazards of the world. "Addict" is one of the labels I am very aware of now, as in "I will not allow an active addict to disrupt my life."
The label Codie summarizes certain behavioral traits that I developed during my relationship with an addict.
Understanding that these traits that I began to tend toward are codependent has been very helpful to me in getting around mental obstacles such as denial, letting go of heartache, and getting to a place of wisdom and serenity for myself.
As far as codependency being a disease, I don't think so. I think it's a learned response to difficult relationships -- at least it seems to be in my case. Some people formulate learn these responses in childhood due to a difficult parent -- and they are plagued by these responses/behaviors throughout their lives, unless they do the work on themselves to outgrow them.
Others (me) learn and exhibit these codependent traits during a relationship with an addict.
At least that's my take on the subject.
The label Codie summarizes certain behavioral traits that I developed during my relationship with an addict.
Understanding that these traits that I began to tend toward are codependent has been very helpful to me in getting around mental obstacles such as denial, letting go of heartache, and getting to a place of wisdom and serenity for myself.
As far as codependency being a disease, I don't think so. I think it's a learned response to difficult relationships -- at least it seems to be in my case. Some people formulate learn these responses in childhood due to a difficult parent -- and they are plagued by these responses/behaviors throughout their lives, unless they do the work on themselves to outgrow them.
Others (me) learn and exhibit these codependent traits during a relationship with an addict.
At least that's my take on the subject.
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"You expect your spouse to faithful, to honor you, respect you, do things for you, put your needs before their own, etc. And in return, you do all of those things too. So the relationship is reciprocal. The happy, healthy couple constantly puts the other partner's needs above their own which cultivates mutual trust. When you know that your spouse will always consider what is in your best interest, why wouldn't you trust that person or do the same back?"
Hi there, I'm interested in what a healthy relationship is. I wouldn't say I'd expect anyone to put my needs before their own and I wouldn't want someone to expect that of me. But then the definition of "needs" is undefined. I pretty much leave responsibility for what I need to myself, and my guy (10 years) is more like a best friend who helps out (when I ask, sometimes 10 times). I do expect him to be faithful, honor and respect me but he can barely understand my "needs" let alone fulfill them. He's not an alcoholic and he's a really nice guy but we don't do things for each other very often. I wonder what it would be like to be with someone who did things for me before he did things for himself. Can that kind of thing last past the honeymoon? Am I missing out?
Hi there, I'm interested in what a healthy relationship is. I wouldn't say I'd expect anyone to put my needs before their own and I wouldn't want someone to expect that of me. But then the definition of "needs" is undefined. I pretty much leave responsibility for what I need to myself, and my guy (10 years) is more like a best friend who helps out (when I ask, sometimes 10 times). I do expect him to be faithful, honor and respect me but he can barely understand my "needs" let alone fulfill them. He's not an alcoholic and he's a really nice guy but we don't do things for each other very often. I wonder what it would be like to be with someone who did things for me before he did things for himself. Can that kind of thing last past the honeymoon? Am I missing out?
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No, we are not all Addicts. To equate my life with the craziness of an addict's life is one of the most nonsensical arguments I have ever read on this board.
Considering what many of us have suffered in our addictive relationships, that is a really trite, insulting comment.
Considering what many of us have suffered in our addictive relationships, that is a really trite, insulting comment.
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Originally Posted by paige73
I'm really struggling with some of this in regards to codependent, detachment, normal healthy relationships, etc....
It seems to me that in a normal, healthy relationship that it's ok to have "expectations". You expect your spouse to faithful, to honor you, respect you, do things for you, put your needs before their own, etc. And in return, you do all of those things too. So the relationship is reciprocal. The happy, healthy couple constantly puts the other partner's needs above their own which cultivates mutual trust. When you know that your spouse will always consider what is in your best interest, why wouldn't you trust that person or do the same back? You treat the relationship as the precous gift that it is. Isn't that what wedding vows are about, and isn't that (for those that are christians taught from the Bible)...with God being number 1?
I don't consider that Codependent behavior at all....however, have 1 spouse do all of those things and the partner do none of those things...and it does look alot like codie behavior.
So, what came first the chicken or the egg? Yes, I acknowledge that some people are codies before beginning the relationship with their A. But I truly believe that many are not. Often, we find oursleves now married to these RA, but we didn't marry a RA those many years ago. Alcoholism has progressed until we no longer recognize these people that we are with. We may continue to attempt those things which are natural for a happy, healthy marriage but to no avail and we are left hurt, wounded, distrustful. Over time, perhaps we begin to turn into codies.
The whole detachment thing seems to me to be basically this: You are in a relationship where the partner (for whatever reason) is not reciprocating those key components of a happy, healthy marriage back...so you must take matters into your own hands. You must be kind to yourself, do those nice things for yourself, put yourself first, etc....because you have to have those needs filled one way or another. Ideally, it should be the person you have committed to.
I think I have decided that I'm not codependent but that I have natural expectations of what a marriage means to me. I'm willing to do all of those things for my spouse but I expect those things in return. Not that I do them and expect "payment" but that I expect that we do them mutually because we love each other. I think that I am also at the point that I am accepting those expectations....not ashamed of them. Therefore, I can chose not to stay in a relationship where I'm not honored or cherished.
It seems to me that in a normal, healthy relationship that it's ok to have "expectations". You expect your spouse to faithful, to honor you, respect you, do things for you, put your needs before their own, etc. And in return, you do all of those things too. So the relationship is reciprocal. The happy, healthy couple constantly puts the other partner's needs above their own which cultivates mutual trust. When you know that your spouse will always consider what is in your best interest, why wouldn't you trust that person or do the same back? You treat the relationship as the precous gift that it is. Isn't that what wedding vows are about, and isn't that (for those that are christians taught from the Bible)...with God being number 1?
I don't consider that Codependent behavior at all....however, have 1 spouse do all of those things and the partner do none of those things...and it does look alot like codie behavior.
So, what came first the chicken or the egg? Yes, I acknowledge that some people are codies before beginning the relationship with their A. But I truly believe that many are not. Often, we find oursleves now married to these RA, but we didn't marry a RA those many years ago. Alcoholism has progressed until we no longer recognize these people that we are with. We may continue to attempt those things which are natural for a happy, healthy marriage but to no avail and we are left hurt, wounded, distrustful. Over time, perhaps we begin to turn into codies.
The whole detachment thing seems to me to be basically this: You are in a relationship where the partner (for whatever reason) is not reciprocating those key components of a happy, healthy marriage back...so you must take matters into your own hands. You must be kind to yourself, do those nice things for yourself, put yourself first, etc....because you have to have those needs filled one way or another. Ideally, it should be the person you have committed to.
I think I have decided that I'm not codependent but that I have natural expectations of what a marriage means to me. I'm willing to do all of those things for my spouse but I expect those things in return. Not that I do them and expect "payment" but that I expect that we do them mutually because we love each other. I think that I am also at the point that I am accepting those expectations....not ashamed of them. Therefore, I can chose not to stay in a relationship where I'm not honored or cherished.
I think true codependency is when there is a pattern of unhealthy behavior over time which damages self, and usually other important relationships for that person. I think its very much like an addiction… because the behaviors are repetitive negative actions, they also seek to fulfill an emotional need much like substances, gambling or food. There is a movie called “Pleasure Unwoven” where a mock periodical table is created listing addictive behaviors and how they can be interchanged. Addiction to people (codependency) is right there with all the others.
I have come to believe from reading on SR the last couple of years codependency really does exist and it can be even more dangerous than substance abuse IMO. It can cause health issues, destroy marriages, begin a legacy of unhealthy behavior for children in the home, cause violent behavior, many symptoms just like other addictions such as lying , sneaking, manipulating.
I personally don’t like labels and I don’t use them, but if I did codependency would be an addiction, and that would mean codependent = addict. There are actually many references/articles where you will see one member of a family turns to drug addiction, another to work addiction, another to codependent addiction; and often there are multiple cross addictions . I have no problem with people labeling themselves if it helps them deal with the problem. For some I think giving it a label brings some kind of peace because they have identified their symptoms and can relate to others.
I also have expectations for myself, my family, life… LOL My goal is not to ever avoid expectations but to be realistic with them… able to cope with unexpected situations, mishaps, roadblocks, and detours. I don’t want to avoid feelings, situations, experiences out of fear of possibly being disappointed.
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I don't know if I'm codependent, but I do know and understand that, as an adult with ADHD, I can be perceived as rude, self-centered, irresponsible, lazy, ill-mannered, and a host of other negative personality attributes. Consequently I've come to be a little apprehensive when meeting and interacting with people because I'm afraid they'll get the wrong impression of me and not like me, or they'll like me at first but then change their mind once they discover the "true" me. When I met and started dating my A, I saw him as being "better" than me, because he didn't appear to have all the "issues" I have. I certainly didn't see him as "incapable" of meeting my needs back then, but then again, we were both in our mid 20's and still liked to go out to bars and stuff.
I understand the need for some people to use labels to help them, and if it works for you, that's great. I personally am not a fan of labels, because, in my experience, with labels come sets of assumptions that go with each label. Codependency doesn't really apply here, because most people don't even know what "codependent" means. I myself had never heard of it until I came here. But, for example, with the label of ADHD, people have assumed I can't read. With alcoholic/addict, there's the assumption that he or she couldn't be one because they shower daily and are employed and get to work on time. The list goes on.
I understand the need for some people to use labels to help them, and if it works for you, that's great. I personally am not a fan of labels, because, in my experience, with labels come sets of assumptions that go with each label. Codependency doesn't really apply here, because most people don't even know what "codependent" means. I myself had never heard of it until I came here. But, for example, with the label of ADHD, people have assumed I can't read. With alcoholic/addict, there's the assumption that he or she couldn't be one because they shower daily and are employed and get to work on time. The list goes on.
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I think it's just fine that you don't think of yourself as Codependent, paige. For me, codependency is just a name for a set of learned behaviors in response to certain relationships--just as Needabreak said.
For me, I learned these behaviors at the feet of a master, my mother. My Mom is an adult child of alcoholics and her behaviors are almost textbook of someone raised in a home with active alcoholism.
I don't think everyone who is in a relationship with an addict or alcoholic is codependent. If you don't like the word, you certainly don't have to use it.
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Often when someone comes here and asks "Is my spouse an alcoholic?" they get the answer "What does it matter what you call them? If their drinking habits cause problems for you, that's the only answer you need."
I think one could look similarly at the label "codependency" -- if you've developed coping mechanisms within a relationship that are unhealthy, you can be helped by un-learning them. Doesn't matter if you call them "codependent behaviors" or "pickled beets" really. And I'm not trying to be snarky -- to me, SR and Al-Anon have been very helpful in identifying behaviors I have that aren't constructive, for me or for any relationship I'm in. And for that, I'm grateful.
I think one could look similarly at the label "codependency" -- if you've developed coping mechanisms within a relationship that are unhealthy, you can be helped by un-learning them. Doesn't matter if you call them "codependent behaviors" or "pickled beets" really. And I'm not trying to be snarky -- to me, SR and Al-Anon have been very helpful in identifying behaviors I have that aren't constructive, for me or for any relationship I'm in. And for that, I'm grateful.
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Great discussion.
I work in the health care field and I have come to learn that patients are so much more than their disease states or health care concerns.
I make a conscious effort to say for example "A person living with diabetes." Calling a person a diabetic feels like a label to me, living with diabetes is a part of the person, but not the whole person.
I feel like I am a person living with codependency, and I have enabled in the past (in my case from before I met and married my loved one that got me here). These behaviors have gotten me into trouble, but because they are behaviors I have a chance to change them. Just like I can change any other behavior that does not serve me well.
I would feel defeated and worn down if I thought my codependency defined who I was....that makes it sound like I would not have a chance to change it or do something about it.
Part of my codependency was around expectations. I expected things of a person not able to give them. I think my expectations were reasonable (like chores for example) but the fact that I kept expecting them, even when being shown over and over again by his actions that he was unable to met them. The more he showed me he could not meet them, the more I tried to get him too.
That was a part of my dis-ease, not his. I had to learn to change how I approached expectations and having them met or it would have killed me. I was so busy trying to get him to meet his expectations that I could not do general, normal self-care.
I work in the health care field and I have come to learn that patients are so much more than their disease states or health care concerns.
I make a conscious effort to say for example "A person living with diabetes." Calling a person a diabetic feels like a label to me, living with diabetes is a part of the person, but not the whole person.
I feel like I am a person living with codependency, and I have enabled in the past (in my case from before I met and married my loved one that got me here). These behaviors have gotten me into trouble, but because they are behaviors I have a chance to change them. Just like I can change any other behavior that does not serve me well.
I would feel defeated and worn down if I thought my codependency defined who I was....that makes it sound like I would not have a chance to change it or do something about it.
Part of my codependency was around expectations. I expected things of a person not able to give them. I think my expectations were reasonable (like chores for example) but the fact that I kept expecting them, even when being shown over and over again by his actions that he was unable to met them. The more he showed me he could not meet them, the more I tried to get him too.
That was a part of my dis-ease, not his. I had to learn to change how I approached expectations and having them met or it would have killed me. I was so busy trying to get him to meet his expectations that I could not do general, normal self-care.
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