paige73

I'm really struggling with some of this in regards to codependent, detachment, normal healthy relationships, etc....

It seems to me that in a normal, healthy relationship that it's ok to have "expectations". You expect your spouse to faithful, to honor you, respect you, do things for you, put your needs before their own, etc. And in return, you do all of those things too. So the relationship is reciprocal. The happy, healthy couple constantly puts the other partner's needs above their own which cultivates mutual trust. When you know that your spouse will always consider what is in your best interest, why wouldn't you trust that person or do the same back? You treat the relationship as the precous gift that it is. Isn't that what wedding vows are about, and isn't that (for those that are christians taught from the Bible)...with God being number 1?

I don't consider that Codependent behavior at all....however, have 1 spouse do all of those things and the partner do none of those things...and it does look alot like codie behavior.

So, what came first the chicken or the egg? Yes, I acknowledge that some people are codies before beginning the relationship with their A. But I truly believe that many are not. Often, we find oursleves now married to these RA, but we didn't marry a RA those many years ago. Alcoholism has progressed until we no longer recognize these people that we are with. We may continue to attempt those things which are natural for a happy, healthy marriage but to no avail and we are left hurt, wounded, distrustful. Over time, perhaps we begin to turn into codies.

The whole detachment thing seems to me to be basically this: You are in a relationship where the partner (for whatever reason) is not reciprocating those key components of a happy, healthy marriage back...so you must take matters into your own hands. You must be kind to yourself, do those nice things for yourself, put yourself first, etc....because you have to have those needs filled one way or another. Ideally, it should be the person you have committed to.

I think I have decided that I'm not codependent but that I have natural expectations of what a marriage means to me. I'm willing to do all of those things for my spouse but I expect those things in return. Not that I do them and expect "payment" but that I expect that we do them mutually because we love each other. I think that I am also at the point that I am accepting those expectations....not ashamed of them. Therefore, I can chose not to stay in a relationship where I'm not honored or cherished.

hopeful4

I think you have hit the nail on the head. I was codependent in that I was an enabler. I was also so involved into his life that I was going to give myself a nervous breakdown. That is true codependency.

Marriage is a contract between two people to love, respect, honor, and be faithful to the other person. It's not codependency to actually expect those things once you join together. Hence, that is why I am getting a divorce. I am no longer codependent at all.

Good for you to be so in touch with what took me years to figure out LOL!

Florence

Right -- it's totally normal to have expectations for a role that someone might fill in your life. What's not normal is putting someone who is incapable of filling that role in that slot, then expecting them to fulfill your expectations, then keening and crying when they can't or won't do it, and finding ourselves unable to kick out the bum employee and put a "HELP WANTED" sign in the window. Which is what we seem to do a lot of here.

SparkleKitty

It's an interesting question, one I don't really have an answer to, just my own experience. I am long out of the range of the A's in my life, but I still have to work everyday at recognizing my codependent tendencies the same way (I imagine) a recovering A has to work at recognizing their Addictive Voice and working against behaviors that seem natural.

I am happily married to a non-A but I still don't think too much about expectations and especially not reciprocation. Every day, my husband and I chose to be together and even though, for example, he makes my lunch and snacks to take to work everyday, I don't 'expect' it. I am just grateful for it. If he didn't one day then I'd do it myself and there would be no tragedy or drama surrounding it, unless he was for some reason withholding an act of generosity to make a point, which we don't generally do. I am similarly grateful for our everyday mutual faithfulness, respect, and kindness towards each other. I try to recognize whether I am doing something in expectation of a reciprocation (not just with my husband but with everyone) and when I am doing something just because it feels right to me to do it and in doing so brings its own reward.

Eliminating expectations from my day-to-day life, reasonable or not, has helped me be more grateful, humble and at peace, which makes me feel that my recovery from codependency is strong.

Florence

I like SparkleKitty's explanation better. When I say "it's totally normal to have expectations for a role that someone might fill in your life" substitute "expectations" with "standards."

readerbaby71

I don't care for word "codie". I think enabler is a better term (that's just me, no offense to anyone). While alanon helped me a great deal, I am not a fan of Codependent No More. There is a balance between caring about someone and doing positive things for them because you want to, and enabling or staying mired in dysfunctional behavior. Not everything you do for someone is "codie" just because they're an alcoholic/addict. Everyone needs help and support from their loved ones sometimes. I had a hard time determining what was what for a while. I'm getting better at it now. It's been a lot easier since I stepped back and let my BF take charge of his own life. Now I can actually enjoy the things I do for him instead of being resentful.

SparkleKitty

I don't have any problem labeling myself a recovering codie. To me, codependency means believing that someone else can fill the hole inside of you while simultaneously choosing people to do so who will only make that hole bigger.

But at the end of the day, I also don't think what you call yourself doesn't matter nearly as much as what you do about it.

unsureoffuture

Yes, exactly! Well said Hopeful4. It took me years to be able to see that is how I view relationships also-mutual give and take not one sided.

Thumper

Well I know I'm co-dependent. Very. I'm missing some of the more visible 'symptoms' but I have plenty! haha.

I like this definition. It hits the mark for me.


I no longer loved my ex. I didn't love him because he didn't meet any of my 'conditions/standards/expectations'. If anything he obliterated them. There was zero trust or intimacy but I was committed come hell or high water - at any price - until I wasn't I guess.

I could not detach while married. I detached in all the outward ways but I wasn't detached mentally and all that frustration, resentment, denial, rage - it was all there being stuffed down until I was completely flat and broken. I still don't really understand how true loving detachment can happen and maybe that is because I had it backwards - like that quote above says. Unconditional commitment is a prison and conditional love is based on fears and needs that require internal work but I didn't realize that. I hated him for both yet I didn't understand that both the prison and fears/needs were my own. To me that is codependency - or part of it.

Bullfrog

Love this perspective. Thank you.

Refiner

I look at codependency as an identity issue. Someone may enable and "do for" the A so much that that is their true identity and they wouldn't know who they are or what they're about if they were to stop. I think what you describe is spot on when it comes to "relationships" and what is expected of one another.

scrapiron

im 4wks out of a up and down nearly unbarerable nightmare 13yr realationship but still love this women deeply even though she has moved on and left me and children to drink and be with someone else,i now feel at a loss without her sometimes its allmost unbarerable.
I have no one to tell what they have to loose what this awfull diesese is doing to them and how it effects the family and your coming and going is giving the kids detatchment issues .Although i stopped buying alcohol for her in 2009 that was when it started to get worse for us, as children services got involved and told me that she was not allowed to be around the children when drunk! or the children would be removed and put into care,this in return became even harder for me as i couldnt help her anymore ,it was my children or her, she was almost forced out of mine and the kids lives and i felt absolutly helpless and couldnt do anything....! im new to this site and just tryin to find my feet so i guess what im trying to ask is it possible that i'm codependent ?any advice would be helpfull.

Katchie

Srap, I believe it is pretty apparent you are..by thats my opinion. I hope you are working with a therapist and going to alanon to help sort all of this through and bring you to a clear place. You may want to try reading CoDependent No More by Melody Beattie.

I know things seem awful, but you will heal and be the better for it all...big hugs

hopeful4

Scrap....I also think you need to learn to put your children first....stat. They need you. Please please get support for you and your children!

Also...when you do all of that talking about how it's hurting your family, etc. to her, she is tuning you out. Alcohol has won her over at this time, it's not within your power to fix that, only her own.

scrapiron

hi'ya katchie actually im going to group therapy tomorrow for relationship detatchment issues as i have a 2yr old that i have to take along with me, they have a cresh and its"FREE" i dont know much about alonon but everyone seem to really rate it so may give it a try. thanks again.

OnawaMiniya

Thanks for this post.

I also do not consider myself to be a "codie".

The sole reason I am still in this marriage a year and a half later is that I am struggling with health issues, and I am not able to currently leave.

What am I doing? Researching like a MANIAC and trying everything within reason to restore my health to a level where I can function (job that I can support myself on, etc).

I am very PROUD of myself that I am slowly finding things that are helping my health - I am DETERMINED to conquer the severe chronic pain, weakness, and fatigue that have taken over my life. I have fought this kicking and screaming, and while I have moments of real, deep despair and anguish, I do my very best to quickly recover from thoughts of hopelessness. This is MY LIFE, damn it, and I am going to FIND a way. Doctors have been minimally helpful, and many are either afraid of thinking outside of the box, are uneducated about alternative things, or are just plain closed minded.

I have good self esteem, I am confident in my strengths, and I am not afraid of my weaknesses, as no one is perfect. I do my best to face them head on and conquer my fears. I have always been a very independent minded person, and am grateful that I have never been one to need the approval of others to feel secure in myself - I imagine that must be a hard road.

I appreciate this post. I think it shines a light on the fact that not all of us are codependent and that there are many roads that end up with you having an alcoholic in your life (whether family, friends, coworkers/bosses, or lovers), and many experiences within that. As far as people who do experience codependent behaviors within themselves, this place is wonderful for encouraging them to gain strength and see themselves and their relationships in a different way, resulting in life-changing breakthroughs for so many here. That is a wonderful thing

Peace.

scrapiron

Sorry katchie I think you misunderstood me, I was saying that kind of stuff about family years ago back in 2009-10 obviously I know its still early days for me but for some reason I feel I should be worse than what I am ,but im not Knockin it if you know what I meen ,dont get me wrong I still have feelings but they aren't getting in the way of my priorities ( children).thanks .

BlueChair

I dont consider myself a "codie" and I agree with the way you broke down healthy relationship traits. I have expectations for my husband, I do things for him and he does for me. Its reciprocal. I also view the crisis he had last year with relapse like a medical problem, and of course during this time he wasnt able to equally reciprocate because he was sick. But there is an ebb and flow to relationships also and I think its ok for this to happen and nothing to get excited about.

Over the long haul, I think if things are unequal in a relationship then you have to ask if your happy, fulfilled. I mean at least 50% of marriages fail and I think this is a big reason why.

I also like what Refiner said, codependency is more an "identity issue" never heard this before but it makes sense. I view it like a severe "lost myself completely" need to redefine my own values, goals, and discover my own self worth.

Enabling is a separate issue to me. Plus Ive found there are a lot of different opinions on what enabling really is.

I sort of think people who are not codependent are often told they are simply because they have some connection with addiction. Then they have to buy a book, do all this research to realize no, Im fine, just in a really bad situation at the moment, confused, need time to process it all, and make decisions.

I had never even heard the term until I came here to SR, None of the addiction doctors who counsel me have mentioned it. I asked and was told not to worry about it (in my case). I think, and maybe Im wrong but the concept is tightly linked to 12 step concepts? Ive been exploring the CRAFT method and have been visiting Smart recovery, and they dont use this term either. But they do say if you have "behaviors" you feel are unhealthy, then work to change them. "Become who you want to be" I like that.

Needabreak

I definitely see my codependent traits, but I think a lot of them developed over the period I was with my addicted partner. I remember when he had is first mysterious bout of disappearing, and when I found out he'd been using cocaine. How upset I was, how much I wanted to end the relationship, the promises he made, the time at rehab....

He stayed sober for about a year. I got better too, started trusting him more, was happy again in my own life, even forgot about most of it...until he started disappearing again. Well that relapse went for about 2 months, and then he went to rehab again.

It was when I made peace with the second relapse and stayed with him that I would say I compromised my own principles, my own life, and crossed the line from being a partner of an addict to being codependent. There were several more relapses, and then finally, finally I took a good hard look at myself and how enmeshed I'd become in the situation -- and made the decision to get help and pull myself out.

It's amazing how their mental issues become our mental issues. They say that when an addict relapses, they pick up at exactly the same point where they left off. I'd say that was true of me too -- I became the same nervous wreck every time he relapsed. Some people on this board have been through one relapse only. I'm happy for them and pray that they don't face another one. But it's very different when over the course of a few years there are repeated relapses, firings, car accidents, lost friendships, etc. I've been single for several months, and am mostly beyond it now, but this is what I experienced, and codependency is a logical name for my own disease -- a sick attachment on my part, triggered by another sick person.

fedup3

I wish I can say I'm not a codie but the truth is I am. My therapist also agrees that I have codependency. All I have to do is look at all the years I put up with Accepting the Unacceptable to know the truth, no one but a codie would have stayed with him, ugh. But just like the alcoholic can recover so can a codie and I'm happy to say I've made strides in the right direction.