Real or Not Real
Member
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: TX
Posts: 380
Originally Posted by CodeJob 
My RAH has spun an alternate reality about his 2013 drunken crisis. I do not know the whole version yet, but if I wrote my version and compared it to his, it would be evident we had both interpreted and reacted very differently.
I fear he is busy masking rather than creating a stronger self with more self esteem and integrity. Papier-mâché masks don't weather well so eventually things will crumble. Best to focus on me so next time I have more wisdom, serenity and courage.
I fear he is busy masking rather than creating a stronger self with more self esteem and integrity. Papier-mâché masks don't weather well so eventually things will crumble. Best to focus on me so next time I have more wisdom, serenity and courage.
What is scary to me is he is actually "sponsoring" a newbie AA member
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Florida
Posts: 6,781
Originally Posted by Stung
I assume that those things and a hundred other bad or worse situations that occurred happened while he was inebriated but I don't know if he was or not. I can't forgive him if he did those things sober. I also can't tell if it matters. Sometimes I feel like I'm past the bad that happened and I can and want to forgive him and other times like now, it feels surreal that those are MY memories. That crap actually happened to me and I allowed it.
I was surprised to find that many of the things said that horrified me so much, he never even remembered saying nor could he come up with any rational explanation for why he would say such things.... except, that it was always easier to act out like that as a method of protecting the web of secrets he had built around his addiction. And the further he got into his drinking the harder it was for him to keep track of his own lies so he would be argumentative as a matter of general behavior. Plus that justified MORE drinking afterward.
He wasn't REALLY sober often when you consider the half-life of alcohol & how long it would take his body to work through the toxin & the resulting, dehydrated hangover it induced. (even if he didn't acknowledge the hangovers regularly, his body & brain were still bearing the punishment) Generally speaking, he would have started drinking again (even just a few beers to stabilize himself) before the process could cycle around so round & round it went. So pretty much all those things said, were said under the influence of his addiction to some degree.
Honestly, when I find myself looking into my memories like this & I keep running into these kind of circles, I get this visual of a pile of hundreds of cords all tangled together like strands of Christmas lights of all different sizes utterly entwined.... & I'm glad that it's on HIS side of the street.
Getting there!!
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 5,750
Posted by Cynical One, who has a wealth of information in her blog!!
Addiction As Disease Does Not Equal "Get Out of Jail Free”
By Peggy L. Ferguson, Ph.D.
Sometimes family members have a hard time with the idea that addiction is a disease. When this is the case, it often has to do with the issue of responsibility. Sometimes family members believe that "disease" is equated with a "get out of jail free card" or not being held responsible. This is not the case.
An addict has responsibility for choosing recovery over choosing to stay in the illness. They have responsibility to do whatever is necessary to maintain sobriety after they have interrupted the addiction cycle by quitting drinking, using, or engaging in addictive behaviors like gambling addiction or sexual addiction. They also have responsibility for the inappropriate and devastating behavior that they engaged in during the active addiction.
One of the overarching tasks and goals of early recovery is to take responsibility for that recovery and for the devastation caused by the addiction. This is important in order to gain insight distorted by denial and other defense mechanisms, to gain a new direction in life, and in developing the living skills that are needed to recover.
Family members are naturally "irked" by the idea that the addict gets off the hook for their behavior because they have an illness. The truth is that in recovery, sometimes for the first time, they ARE being held responsible. They have to be responsible for their behavior in order to recover. The same is true for family members. There is often a great deal of maladaptive behavior involved in the family dynamics of addiction and each family member must take responsibility for their own feelings, decisions, and behavior.
Spouses and parents often try to solve the problem of the addict's addiction for a very long time before the addiction is correctly identified. They often end up enabling the addict by their very problem solving attempts. These family members usually tolerate intolerable behavior and situations over a long period of time, lose themselves in the process, and yet depend on the addict to step up and make it all alright.
Even sober or abstinent, the addict cannot make it all alright. The family member has often invested all their time, energy, and other resources in the development, nurturance, or reclamation of the addict, and has neglected themselves in the process.
In reality, family members are responsible for their own choices, decisions, and behavior in the addiction process--just like the addict.
One of the things that happens in the family dynamics of addiction is the circular blaming by all involved. The addict often blames the family members for the problems that occur in the family, in their lives, and the family member often believes them. These relatives typically feel compelled to engage in inappropriate caretaking or coercion of the addict, trying to get them to straighten up. There is a direct parallel between the compulsion to fix the addict and the addict's compulsion to "use" the mood altering chemical. The family member often gets to the point where they blame the addict for their own choices, saying "I had to do ____ because he did _______".
The reality is that both had choices and responsibility for those choices each step of the way. Addiction negatively affects everyone in the family. No one escapes unscathed.
The good news is that each person involved in the scenario can recover, regardless of whether the other does. This, again, is based on choices and responsibility for one's own choices.
There is no doubt that the inappropriate behavior of the addict hurts the family members. The dishonesty, the inability to be emotionally present, or the inability to engage in adult responsibilities with emotional maturity is often part and parcel of addictions. Family members are justifiably angry about the addict's behavior. If they have much insight into addiction, they are appropriately concerned about the continuation of that behavior.
Recovery is a process that occurs over a long period of time. When the addict enters recovery by stopping the consumption of alcohol or other drugs, things can begin to get better. However, abstinence is only the very, very, very beginning of recovery.
There is much work to be done.
Affected relatives also need their own recovery program. Family members do not recover by being a non-involved bystander or by continuing to over-invest in the addict's vs. their own recovery. Any person's recovery is contingent upon taking responsibility for that recovery. Relationships can also recover as each person works on their own issues.
The non-addicted spouse can recover regardless of whether the addict ever gets clean and sober. By working on their own issues and working a program of recovery, they can find peace and serenity that is not dependent on what the addict is doing or not doing.
Ultimately spouses get to choose whether or not they are willing to remain in a relationship with uncertain recovery outcomes. Relapse is a common symptom of all addictions and all chronic illnesses. Sometimes spouses decide that they "have had enough" and choose to get out. In some cases that action represents responsibility for self-care.
Addiction As Disease Does Not Equal "Get Out of Jail Free”
By Peggy L. Ferguson, Ph.D.
Sometimes family members have a hard time with the idea that addiction is a disease. When this is the case, it often has to do with the issue of responsibility. Sometimes family members believe that "disease" is equated with a "get out of jail free card" or not being held responsible. This is not the case.
An addict has responsibility for choosing recovery over choosing to stay in the illness. They have responsibility to do whatever is necessary to maintain sobriety after they have interrupted the addiction cycle by quitting drinking, using, or engaging in addictive behaviors like gambling addiction or sexual addiction. They also have responsibility for the inappropriate and devastating behavior that they engaged in during the active addiction.
One of the overarching tasks and goals of early recovery is to take responsibility for that recovery and for the devastation caused by the addiction. This is important in order to gain insight distorted by denial and other defense mechanisms, to gain a new direction in life, and in developing the living skills that are needed to recover.
Family members are naturally "irked" by the idea that the addict gets off the hook for their behavior because they have an illness. The truth is that in recovery, sometimes for the first time, they ARE being held responsible. They have to be responsible for their behavior in order to recover. The same is true for family members. There is often a great deal of maladaptive behavior involved in the family dynamics of addiction and each family member must take responsibility for their own feelings, decisions, and behavior.
Spouses and parents often try to solve the problem of the addict's addiction for a very long time before the addiction is correctly identified. They often end up enabling the addict by their very problem solving attempts. These family members usually tolerate intolerable behavior and situations over a long period of time, lose themselves in the process, and yet depend on the addict to step up and make it all alright.
Even sober or abstinent, the addict cannot make it all alright. The family member has often invested all their time, energy, and other resources in the development, nurturance, or reclamation of the addict, and has neglected themselves in the process.
In reality, family members are responsible for their own choices, decisions, and behavior in the addiction process--just like the addict.
One of the things that happens in the family dynamics of addiction is the circular blaming by all involved. The addict often blames the family members for the problems that occur in the family, in their lives, and the family member often believes them. These relatives typically feel compelled to engage in inappropriate caretaking or coercion of the addict, trying to get them to straighten up. There is a direct parallel between the compulsion to fix the addict and the addict's compulsion to "use" the mood altering chemical. The family member often gets to the point where they blame the addict for their own choices, saying "I had to do ____ because he did _______".
The reality is that both had choices and responsibility for those choices each step of the way. Addiction negatively affects everyone in the family. No one escapes unscathed.
The good news is that each person involved in the scenario can recover, regardless of whether the other does. This, again, is based on choices and responsibility for one's own choices.
There is no doubt that the inappropriate behavior of the addict hurts the family members. The dishonesty, the inability to be emotionally present, or the inability to engage in adult responsibilities with emotional maturity is often part and parcel of addictions. Family members are justifiably angry about the addict's behavior. If they have much insight into addiction, they are appropriately concerned about the continuation of that behavior.
Recovery is a process that occurs over a long period of time. When the addict enters recovery by stopping the consumption of alcohol or other drugs, things can begin to get better. However, abstinence is only the very, very, very beginning of recovery.
There is much work to be done.
Affected relatives also need their own recovery program. Family members do not recover by being a non-involved bystander or by continuing to over-invest in the addict's vs. their own recovery. Any person's recovery is contingent upon taking responsibility for that recovery. Relationships can also recover as each person works on their own issues.
The non-addicted spouse can recover regardless of whether the addict ever gets clean and sober. By working on their own issues and working a program of recovery, they can find peace and serenity that is not dependent on what the addict is doing or not doing.
Ultimately spouses get to choose whether or not they are willing to remain in a relationship with uncertain recovery outcomes. Relapse is a common symptom of all addictions and all chronic illnesses. Sometimes spouses decide that they "have had enough" and choose to get out. In some cases that action represents responsibility for self-care.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Silicon Valley, CA
Posts: 2,066
AND I just had a heavy dose of "actions, not words." He just lied to me about something that doesn't even matter, then tried to defend himself, then tried to blame me "because I would have been mad" had he just told me the truth off the bat, then he cried until he finally apologized and then told me he doesn't know why he lied. Whatever guy. Today is another day that I'm thankful that we're separated, although I am also thankful that our daughters got to play with him for awhile today too. Bright side is that I've finally detached from him because I was totally unphased by his crazy emotional roller coaster that he just rode on.
The "sick or not sick" was right on the money. He's still very sick.
The "sick or not sick" was right on the money. He's still very sick.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Southern US
Posts: 785
I'm sorry, Stung 
I would agree with everyone else that it doesn't matter whether the behavior occurred while he was drunk or sober, unacceptable behavior is still unacceptable.
On the controlling thing, he may well not be aware that he's doing it. I've only just realized the extent of my own control issues in the last few months. Hopefully, he'll really work his program and figure it out before you've had enough. I can't remember, are his parents alcoholics, too?
I would agree with everyone else that it doesn't matter whether the behavior occurred while he was drunk or sober, unacceptable behavior is still unacceptable. On the controlling thing, he may well not be aware that he's doing it. I've only just realized the extent of my own control issues in the last few months. Hopefully, he'll really work his program and figure it out before you've had enough. I can't remember, are his parents alcoholics, too?
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Silicon Valley, CA
Posts: 2,066
His dad, older sister, one older brother, and 3 grandparents are alcoholics but the grandparents and alcoholic brother are all deceased and his dad and sister still drink. The alcoholism is a familial thing but the controlling stuff is his mom. She manipulates people emotionally, not by outright telling them what to do. I'm controlling in a very direct manner and admittedly so (don't drive so fast, wear that shirt, let ME push the stroller, etc.) My husband and his psycho mom are subtle about it and act very distressed, anxious and beside themselves until you give in and give them what they want. It doesn't feel controlling at face value but the times that he really sends out his anxious cues (because I'm now aware that he KNOWS how to hide his anxiety, and he's good at it) is when he's trying to illicit a specific response out of me. Like "park over here, I'm getting really anxious that your car is going to get towed" or today's was "I'm really sorry I lied. I just want to tell you again that I'm sorry. Please forgive me." And 'please forgive me' really means absolving him of wrong doing. But the lying was deliberate and my reaction to his lying is MINE!
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Silicon Valley, CA
Posts: 2,066
He's codependent on me and I think the lying was more codependency (worrying about what I'll think and say and how I'll react) than dry drunk. He was very pleasant until I busted him for lying. He also asked me twice earlier in the day if I was mad or frustrated. He wants reassurance of my feelings all the time. Not healthy!!
Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Midwest, USA
Posts: 2,899
Intent isn't magic.
If someone steps on your toe, it hurts. You deserve to have that hurt acknowledged and be given an apology. A dude who keeps stepping on your toes and doesn't make any real attempts to quit hurting you does not have your best interests mind.
Is he sick? Great thought game. Eventually you have to get distance from people who keep stepping on your toes.
Regarding the crosswalk analogy, intent is the deference between life in prison or the death penalty. Sick isn't an excuse. You misbehave, you pay the consequence.
If someone steps on your toe, it hurts. You deserve to have that hurt acknowledged and be given an apology. A dude who keeps stepping on your toes and doesn't make any real attempts to quit hurting you does not have your best interests mind.
Is he sick? Great thought game. Eventually you have to get distance from people who keep stepping on your toes.
Regarding the crosswalk analogy, intent is the deference between life in prison or the death penalty. Sick isn't an excuse. You misbehave, you pay the consequence.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Silicon Valley, CA
Posts: 2,066
My thought process behind intent was my wondering if he actually hates me or is it something he says when he's drunk. Saying it while sober makes me feel like its a genuine feeling rather than something that just happened while drunk.
The reasoning behind my screen name is because the night I joined SR and reached out here was because my husband had again told me he hated me. It stung every single time he said it. We have said "I love you" to one another countless times and I vividly remember every single "I hate you" he's fired at me. Often times there is talk of Jekyll and Hyde here, and I have definitely seen that in my husband but what if Jekyll and Hyde have both said "I hate you"?
Regardless, I think ReaderBaby was right that I could drive myself crazy trying to figure out his motives. And I think FireSprite is probably right that an alcoholic is never really sober until they're working a program and even then it takes a while for real sobriety to kick in. I guess my whole question and thought process is a moot point. This is just a bizarre speed bump for me.
The reasoning behind my screen name is because the night I joined SR and reached out here was because my husband had again told me he hated me. It stung every single time he said it. We have said "I love you" to one another countless times and I vividly remember every single "I hate you" he's fired at me. Often times there is talk of Jekyll and Hyde here, and I have definitely seen that in my husband but what if Jekyll and Hyde have both said "I hate you"?
Regardless, I think ReaderBaby was right that I could drive myself crazy trying to figure out his motives. And I think FireSprite is probably right that an alcoholic is never really sober until they're working a program and even then it takes a while for real sobriety to kick in. I guess my whole question and thought process is a moot point. This is just a bizarre speed bump for me.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: right here, right now
Posts: 6,516
My thought process behind intent was my wondering if he actually hates me or is it something he says when he's drunk. Saying it while sober makes me feel like its a genuine feeling rather than something that just happened while drunk.
My answer has always been NO.
Alcoholism changes a person's brain. But alcohol doesn't fundamentally change who a person are. Like the saying goes -- sober up a drunk horse thief, and you have a sober horse thief. Conversely -- make a responsible citizen drunk and he's not gonna start stealing horses. There are lines you don't cross, drunk or sober, if you are a healthy, caring, normal person.
Or, as LaTeeDa said -- see my signature.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Midwest, USA
Posts: 2,899
Agreed. You're working through a lot.
My thinking today is this: Sick or not sick, drunk or not drunk, some behavior is unacceptable. Some folks are able to own up to it and change their lives, some aren't. How long are you willing to hold out to see which one he is? Which kind are you?
When these questions stopped being hypothetical in my life, I had some tough decisions to make about what kind of behavior I would accept in my relationships.
My thinking today is this: Sick or not sick, drunk or not drunk, some behavior is unacceptable. Some folks are able to own up to it and change their lives, some aren't. How long are you willing to hold out to see which one he is? Which kind are you?
When these questions stopped being hypothetical in my life, I had some tough decisions to make about what kind of behavior I would accept in my relationships.
Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
