Real or Not Real

Old 02-15-2014, 07:05 PM
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Real or Not Real

Has anyone read the final Hunger Games book? At the end Peeta keeps asking Katnis if his memories are real or whether they were fabricated during his captivity.

I feel like doing the Drunk or Not Drunk version with my husband as it pertains to the really bad times we've had this past year to two years. Did these things always happen as a result of drinking or were some of those moments had with a sober man who was just terrorizing me. I think I can forgive the bad if it was a result of an altered state of mind, I don't know that I can forgive him if some of that was from a sober man.

Drunk or not drunk: Calling me from your car saying you we're going to speed off the bridge because you want to die.

Drunk or not drunk: telling me you hate me after the last time I had sex with you, while I was 7 months pregnant.

Drunk or not drunk: screaming at me in front of my mom a week after our second daughter was born because I made you feel like you couldn't do anything right.

Drunk or not drunk: telling me it was "no big deal" when I fell and scraped up my side when I was 5 months pregnant.

I assume that those things and a hundred other bad or worse situations that occurred happened while he was inebriated but I don't know if he was or not. I can't forgive him if he did those things sober. I also can't tell if it matters. Sometimes I feel like I'm past the bad that happened and I can and want to forgive him and other times like now, it feels surreal that those are MY memories. That crap actually happened to me and I allowed it.
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Old 02-15-2014, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Stung View Post
Has anyone read the final Hunger Games book? At the end Peeta keeps asking Katnis if his memories are real or whether they were fabricated during his captivity.

I feel like doing the Drunk or Not Drunk version with my husband as it pertains to the really bad times we've had this past year to two years. Did these things always happen as a result of drinking or were some of those moments had with a sober man who was just terrorizing me. I think I can forgive the bad if it was a result of an altered state of mind, I don't know that I can forgive him if some of that was from a sober man.

Drunk or not drunk: Calling me from your car saying you we're going to speed off the bridge because you want to die.

Drunk or not drunk: telling me you hate me after the last time I had sex with you, while I was 7 months pregnant.

Drunk or not drunk: screaming at me in front of my mom a week after our second daughter was born because I made you feel like you couldn't do anything right.

Drunk or not drunk: telling me it was "no big deal" when I fell and scraped up my side when I was 5 months pregnant.

I assume that those things and a hundred other bad or worse situations that occurred happened while he was inebriated but I don't know if he was or not. I can't forgive him if he did those things sober. I also can't tell if it matters. Sometimes I feel like I'm past the bad that happened and I can and want to forgive him and other times like now, it feels surreal that those are MY memories. That crap actually happened to me and I allowed it.
It doesn't matter if he was sober or drunk. These things happened. They were all real. Gentle hugs to you.
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Old 02-15-2014, 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by readerbaby71 View Post
It doesn't matter if he was sober or drunk. These things happened. They were all real. Gentle hugs to you.
That's my take on it too. I was constantly questioning my own reality especially as I go through the past events and wondering if my perceptions were truth. I know they were and that's all that matters to me now.

HUGS!
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Old 02-15-2014, 08:32 PM
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They happened and were real to YOU.
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Old 02-15-2014, 09:04 PM
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Lizatola, I'm doing that right now too, although I'm sure dwelling on the past isn't healthy. It's just that I view things so differently now. Yesterday he did me a favor and he was being very bossy and he apologized right after he was being so obnoxious but he apologized for being frantic, I wanted him to apologize for being controlling. In the past I would NEVER have labeled him as controlling but its apparent to me now how controlling his behaviors are. He wants a result and he acts a certain way to get it, however I don't think he's aware of that part of his own behaviors yet. It's like I now have 20/20 vision and it makes some of the past stuff look and feel worse than it did before.
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Old 02-15-2014, 10:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Stung View Post
Lizatola, I'm doing that right now too, although I'm sure dwelling on the past isn't healthy. It's just that I view things so differently now. Yesterday he did me a favor and he was being very bossy and he apologized right after he was being so obnoxious but he apologized for being frantic, I wanted him to apologize for being controlling. In the past I would NEVER have labeled him as controlling but its apparent to me now how controlling his behaviors are. He wants a result and he acts a certain way to get it, however I don't think he's aware of that part of his own behaviors yet. It's like I now have 20/20 vision and it makes some of the past stuff look and feel worse than it did before.
I understand that completely. I don't think I truly understood the pathology associated with the word 'controlling' until I started working my recovery. And, that goes for me, too. I thought I was fixing things FOR HIM. When, in reality, what I was doing was controlling the outcome to lessen the fallout from his behaviors. Whether it be an angry outburst, retaliatory silent treatment, depressive incidents and sulking, etc, I was always trying to control all kinds of things.

It's truly eye opening and then I realized just how controlling my husband was, as well. It sucked, but there's a huge part of me that is relieved. It gives me peace to know that I am on a path of enlightenment for myself, to know my own self better, and to learn how these patterns were created so that they don't happen again.

Just the other day I literally shut the car door on my AH while he was trying to bait me into an argument we were having. I knew we would go in circles, I knew where he was going with the lie he was telling, and I knew the truth and no longer feel the need to prove it to him. So, when he challenged me, I stepped out of the car and walked into the bank, it was his choice whether he was going to follow me or not. It was the end of the conversation. 2 years ago, we would have sat there for an hour going in circles and I'd be on a serious ride to crazy town.
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Old 02-16-2014, 06:09 AM
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It doesn't matter if he was drunk or not...until he is sober and has changed his way of thinking/living thru whatever means of work he chooses best for him ie AA therapy or whathave you..his brain is still sick....Stung the forgiveness, letting go...thats for you. I heard that you dint have to like something to accept it...once you accept then you make the choice..."if I am unable to change the present state off affairs, am I willing to take measures necessesary to shape my life to conditions as they are....
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Old 02-16-2014, 06:23 AM
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When we are in a relationship with a man and have that soul tie that binds us to them through brain chemistry, history, children despite the horror of addiction we finally get to a place where we wonder:

Who is this person deep in their heart? At the deepest place in their soul... their spirit... who are they? Is he someone of Character? Honor? Integrity? Is he Honest at all times? Can I really trust him with my heart? Should I give him the rest of my natural life?

Sometimes down deep we know the answers to the questions that recovery bring to the surface but we just don't want to accept that the person we feel tied to and believe we live is not a person we should have chosen. They don't deserve our respect or love... they are shallow, selfish and not trustworthy.

Beginning to see these huge character defects is painful and how we deal with the truth as recovery strips away the denial determines our choices and destiny.

Personally I left the relationship with my A and moved on and now my A is in recovery...

but I wonder the same questions... who is this man? What is real and what is not... is he acting the part just to cover up his soul? ... or is he changing and becoming the man of honor and integrity in a spiritual program of recovery???

Honesty... I don't know. It is like crazy mirrors and a maze sometimes dealing with A's drinking or in recovery... because developing trust is almost impossible.

Time will tell... and I am just watching with great interest and wonder.

But I won't get in a relationship with an A ever again. Ever.
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Old 02-16-2014, 07:41 AM
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Is it a matter of allowing it to happen? That wasn't allowing it - he did it, he said it you couldn't stop it. I think this behavior when it first springs up is so shocking that there is a disbelief on the receiving end - how could your husband say and do those things?

It takes time to get to a point where you won't accept it anymore and you got there. That is what matters.

Whether he were drunk or sober wouldn't matter to me. Nobody gets an out because they were drunk. Someone who "acts a certain way to get a result" is manipulative, I tend to give them the opposite of what they hope to achieve when dealing with a manipulator.

Your ability to overcome and forgive him AND move forward with him is dependent on his sorrow in behaving that way in the first place, and not doing it anymore.
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Old 02-16-2014, 08:04 AM
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is it somehow OK if a drunk driver plows into a crosswalk of school kids BECAUSE he was drunk?? well, he didn't MEAN it, it's not the REAL him and all that. when violence and abuse are perpetrated upon us for ANY reason, it's is indefensible and unjustifiable. to try and see it any other way is to minimize, justify and rationalize unacceptable behavior. we aren't talking the errant snowball or Frisbee that gets us upside the head here.......
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Old 02-16-2014, 08:07 AM
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Stung, imho there is no good excuse for bad behavior and treating someone poorly. Drunk or sober makes.no difference.
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Old 02-16-2014, 08:09 AM
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Stung, I'm sorry. I don't care if he was drink or not, an ******* is still an *******.
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Old 02-16-2014, 08:49 AM
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I agree that there is never an excuse to behave in an abusive manner, but like the crosswalk analogy, for me, there is a difference between someone who accidentally mows down school children while they're drunk versus someone doing it in a sober state knowing exactly what they're doing and aiming for them. Even our legal system thinks there is a difference. The outcome is the same but the intent isn't. The intent matters because in one scenario I was collateral damage to his drinking, in the other it isn't collateral it was intentionally directed at me.
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Old 02-16-2014, 08:56 AM
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But does it really matter? Whether he was drunk or not it made you feel like ****. That's the bottom line.

P.S. Loved the Hunger Games!!!!
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Old 02-16-2014, 08:58 AM
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There is no difference in an active alcoholics thinking/ motives... sober or not....its not until he works the steps that he can be restored to sanity.
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Old 02-16-2014, 09:00 AM
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I think the better question is "sick or not sick"? And the answer is sick. At least historically. The next question is "do I see him healing or am I willing to stay anyway"? Everything was real. Everything was a result of choices he made...and he watched it all happen too, and continued to make those choices.

Hugs!
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Old 02-16-2014, 09:18 AM
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No, I suppose it doesn't really matter at all. Moving forward is what I need to focus on.

He seems to be having a real ah-ha moment of his own this week. He's doing therapy twice a week, doing AA every day, book study once a week, calls with his sponsor daily and he blows into a sober link thing every two hours that is monitored by his therapist and if he blows anything above a zero apparently his therapist, sponsor and myself will be notified. Personally, this wouldn't be the method that I would choose but he really likes having the accountability from his therapist and sponsor. The success rates from having accountability measures in place versus only AA meetings jumps from something like 5% to 80%. Anyway, he's sounding more healthy and adjusted and sober every single day, which is great, wonderful actually. I don't know why I'm thinking so much about the bad stuff yesterday and today.
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Old 02-16-2014, 09:21 AM
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Hey, we all overthink sometimes. That's what got us here in the first place!!! Moving forward and taking care of your children is your top priority now. Driving yourself crazy trying to determine his motivation for bad behavior only hurts you. Big hugs!
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Old 02-16-2014, 10:19 AM
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My RAH has spun an alternate reality about his 2013 drunken crisis. I do not know the whole version yet, but if I wrote my version and compared it to his, it would be evident we had both interpreted and reacted very differently.

I fear he is busy masking rather than creating a stronger self with more self esteem and integrity. Papier-mâché masks don't weather well so eventually things will crumble. Best to focus on me so next time I have more wisdom, serenity and courage.
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Old 02-16-2014, 10:25 AM
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I think that in this point of everyones recovery that "thinking" about the wreckage of the past is natural. Finding forgivness and letting go of resentments are necessary to move on. I know, it's so hard! Be grateful for progress and know that no one is perfect.
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