lillamy

Oh GAWD, don't we all wish that???

My five cents go right in Hammer's bucket. Expect nothing and you won't be disappointed. Stop telling yourself stories in your head ("he's going to say this, and then I'm going to tear up and put his face in my hands and look him in the eye and say, "baby, it's OK; I forgive you" and then the music is going to start") and work on your recovery...

But that comes from someone whose A never got to that point in recovery. So I may be a tad bitter.

patientlywaitin

I started a reply to this this morning but never finished so I'm sorry if I repeat anything already written.

I don't think it's good to have high expectations from him at this point. It comparable to setting your self up for failure. It's ok to have rules for your home and boundaries for yourself, enforce them as needed but anything more than that can lead to disappointment.

I expected my H to be himself (just minus the alcohol) when he come home from rehab and started his recovery. I didn't get that. He still isn't there 14mo later. I hope things continue to get better, so far they haven't gotten worse but I have to let go of my ideas of how he should be or do things because it only hurts me. That doesn't mean I have to accept the unacceptable it just means I don't expect them. Who am I to know that how he is now isn't who he really is? Do I think he'll stay this way? No, I'm confidant the longer he works his program the better he will be but that all takes time.

I haven't received my amends yet, he isn't on that step yet and I'm ok with that. I'm not finished healing from the damage he caused before he quit, something I work very hard on. So while his amends may help him heal, I'm afraid it may make me feel worse? Guilt can be a heavy burden and letting it go can be freeing but I forgave him a long time ago so it's not really about me. That was a touchy conversation we had with the therapist once. I wanted my h to be sorry but not feel guilty. Yes he screwed up and yes he hurt me but I stayed, I put up with it when I didn't have to. I could have left just as easily.

I hope one day he will fully understand what I've gone through, do I expect that? No because I don't want to be disappointed.

I know you may feel like his apologies are empty but I'd caution letting him on to that. It may be monotonous right now but the clearer you allow him to communicate the easier it will be for him to talk to you. It's not easy to open back up after you've hurt/been hurt by someone.

patientlywaitin

Sorry I didn't read your latest comment before I got through writing, I'm a little slow with my thumbs.

My RAH and I are still together, happy if not content most days. We have our problems but who doesn't. There is always room for improvement. Getting sober doesn't make things better over night, there are many things that need worked on for him and I and us as a whole. Even though we had a relationship before he got sober, he is not the man I dropped off at the hospital. In most ways he's better, in some he isn't. So far there hasn't been anything we couldn't get through.

Things aren't always happy around here, that's true. This is where you should feel blessed because what you are working towards with your rah is rare. That isn't anyone's fault, try not to feel attacked but informed. I don't always like responses I get just as some don't like what I give. I hope you keep posting, and responding. You belong here as well as anyone else, I have personally enjoyed seeing things getting better for you.

fairlyuncertain

I received the funniest "amends" ever.
My exAH was trying to pick a fight (close to relapsing/irritable) and when I got up to walk away, said "I don't know what your f**ing problem is, but I'm trying to make amends by being nice to you, I don't know why you have to be such a b**tch when I'm trying to be nice!"
I treasure that memory.

BoxinRotz

Little piece of advice to you since you're married to an alcoholic... Remember this... It's NOT about YOU when it comes to him drinking. His recovery is NOT about YOU and making your life peaches and cream. It's all him. Him. HIM. YOU need to get used to that because he's an ALCOHOLIC and will ALWAYS be an ALCOHOLIC. Mmmmkay?

While I'm here, I want you to know what my alcoholic husband said to me when I told him I want the man I met back. He said, I will never be that man and you will never be that woman I met because we change. I can tell you that he was absolutely right because I am NOT the same person he met almost 5 years ago. EVERYTHING in our lives has changed.

I don't believe I've ever looked at or felt my husband was an investment. EEEP!!!! I hope you mean loving him, caring about him, being there for him. Your words are flying off the screen and make your intentions of *investment* look so ugly. With that said, You are putting yourself and your children in the hands of an active alcoholic... I mean a recovering alcoholic if that makes you feel better. Just imagine putting duct tape on a hole in a bucket and going to fetch water. Continually. How long will it hold... Ahhhhh nobody knows. Maybe forever and more than likely not. You don't know and neither do I but lets giv'er a go and see.



Ahhh the fairytale.


I'm still with my husband stung. I stayed with him after he totaled his motorcycle and spent our wedding anniversary in the trauma center. I listened to him lay in his hospital bed and tell me everything he thought I should hear. He told me how sorry he was. How he knew I needed a good husband and he was that man. How things were going to change. He never meant to do this. He almost died and he wants to be a good person. You still with me stung? It all sounded so good after damn near losing him because that a$$hole was as good as dead laying on the side of the road with half his head missing!!! I brought him home and took care of him. I fed him, bathed him in my kitchen sink. Took him to his plastic surgeons and neuro drs. I did it all for him because that's what a good b!tch... oh, excuse me... that's what a good wife does. He thanked me for being there by picking up where he left off. And I still stuck by him. I'm still there testing the murky waters of alcoholism with the tips of my toes. I'm done diving head first into what looks like a diving well and it's a friggen puddle.

You will never know what will kick his alcoholism into high gear and derail you. Because when life seems like it's on track, committing yourself to an alcoholic is like taking a train ride and before you know it, you are barreling down the tracks with a one way ticket to hell and you're ass was just sitting on the beach yesterday!

Potential. That's what you're banking on. His potential. His potential is me wrapping up horse dung in purty Christmas paper and setting it under the tree. Oh look how nice...

PohsFriend

Maybe all of us kids with NPD moms could get together sometime and apologize for breathing then tell everyone else in the room that they are valued and accepted so we don't all have to take turns explainingand justifying ourselves ;-)

The common thread is codependency - kids of NPD moms have a related but slightly different type and we always feel like no matter what we do it is not good enough. I was about 40 when in the midst of someone telling me why my feelings were stupid and how I needed to change them and when I had to have feelings they found acceptable by. I exploded and told them I will feel what I feel unless and until I felt differently and if at some point in time my feelings changed and I felt like letting them know then I would and if that was not OK then too damned bad because they did not get a vote. ...only someone in this club can probably understand how hard it was to do that or how freeing it felt or how furious it would make the person I refused to obey.

We are allowed to be happy but much much much more importantly we are allowed to say so when we are not and it is OK to tell someone that their abuse of our boundaries is not OK. That's our survival challenge - understanding that we are responsible for what we permit and deciding not to accept that which is unacceptable to us. To most people that sounds as simple as telling an alcoholic that all they need to do is not drink and it would demonstrate the same level of ignorance.

Sometimes I have ruffled a few feathers by pointing out that we are responsible for our choices and have choices and that when someone says they are trapped that they have chosen to be trapped. I don't mean to say that it is easy and it may be that our brain knows what we need to do long before our heart and finally our feet get the message but I think there is a critical and fundamental, perhaps life and death difference between "I can't change this situation" and "I'm not ready to change this situation". The former is the stuff that fuels self-loathing and feelings of failure because it says all is lost, the latter is an expression of self-acceptance and hope - I haven't lost, damnit, I just haven't won YET.

DMC

I actually got amends... nearly 3 years after the divorce and nearly 4 years of minimal to no contact.

I had to call to tell him there was a problem with his COBRA and it would be changing. I mostly was just trying to reach his mother, but was surprised when he answered.

Long story short, he's apparently gotten sober, but has nearly cost him his life. He did apologize for screwing everything up. But it was a very quiet, very sad apology. I forgave him, verbally, for having this sucky disease and everything that came with it.

I know he struggles. I know he knows (now) that I'm seeing someone else. But there was a certain peace that came with it. Whether or not I'll ever talk to him again, I don't know. Our families live close to each other, but they never run into each other. It's sort of weird. In any case, no, it wasn't a cobblestones-in-the-rain moment. It was more a hushed, dark, quiet gaping-hole-in-the-soul sort of moment. But he did actually reference step 9, which makes me think that maybe he's clawing himself out of the hole.

And I wish him the best. I just couldn't stay while he self-destructed any longer. (Hell, I made it 11 years married)

Take what you like, and leave the rest.

Stung

Thank you everyone for sharing your experiences with me.

Lyssy - I should have kept my post short and sweet like you did. Thank you for sharing your previous post with me.

HealingWillCome

Jumping in a bit late, and I appreciate that you'd like this thread to die off, Stung, but sorry...I'd like to add my two cents about this point.
Many here do see a salvaged marriage, and truly, from the bottom of my heart...yay for everyone of them. It's what we all hope for.

But to imply that one's life sucks because a marriage wasn't salvaged isn't a fair assessment.
My marriage wasn't salvaged, nor was my later relationship with my xabf. But my life certainly doesn't suck. In fact, I'm extremely happy, and don't see my un-salvaged relationships as failures. They are what they are.

What has given me peace is a full acceptance of who my xah and xabf are. Like a full, "I finally really get it and can accept that this has nothing to do with me acceptance" of who they are.

Giving them the dignity to make their own adult life choices without my control, whether or not they include addiction and illness or me in their lives, has been freeing for me.

Not depending on someone else to determine my own happiness has been freeing for me.

Not attempting to control their choices (alcoholism and addiction) in order to find my own peace has been freeing for me.

I would have loved salvaged relationships more than anything. But does my life suck as a result of not getting them? No way.

Related to amends-making: There was a point after my divorce where I had been doing some soul-searching and thinking about what I had contributed to my failed marriage. My xah came to pick up the kids for a visit one day, and I found myself apologizing for the things I had not done well in our marriage. I didn't get much of a response. He looked a little bewildered that I was apologizing for anything (he left us for a young girl who doted on him, drinking behavior and all), but the thing I realized is that I had a motive in my apology. I was really seeking (trying to manipulate) an apology from him. I definitely didn't get one. He has still never made amends directly to me although he has made statements to others about his own remorse that have been repeated to me. Now, years later, I honestly don't care if he attempts to make amends. I have forgiven, accepted, let go. No bitterness or control in me. He's free to be who he is, and I'm free to carve out my own happiness, regardless of his choices.

Stung

Healing, thank you for sharing your thoughts with me.

This thread actually caused me to think quite a bit and it's mostly because of what Aeryn posted, and then from what Poh subsequently posted. She made a point about feeling defensive, Poh made a comment about winning. Both of those really struck a cord with me. Yes, I'm defensive when you guys disagree with me. Although this certainly isn't verbatim I felt like I made a light post asking what amends were like and then you guys started chiming in that I wasn't going to successfully get my husband back, that I need to stop thinking that I can have that, I should have zero expectations, that I'm accepting dung wrapped in purdy Christmas paper. That hurts my feelings. I grew up in a household continually being told I couldn't accomplish things. I have accomplished a LOT in my 28 years despite being told I couldn't and I worked my ass off to do so. So when you guys tell me that I can't, I won't, it's uikely, probably won't happen, don't have any expectations, it makes me feel like saying "watch me prove you wrong." Because that's what I do. I scrape and hustle and I prove to people that I can have everything that I want. My husband is this way too. We're tenacious and very sensitive to critism and don't take kindly to being doubted. We're also emensely proud of each other and accept one another exactly as we are, which is why this has been so difficult for me. My husband is a really smart guy and I am really pissed that he's made these decisions instead of asking for my help or confiding in me.

Upon reflection, I see that you're all trying to warn me that there is a greater fall IF things don't work out based upon my having great expectations. However, that's not my knee jerk reaction to see your cautionary tales as they are.

Lastly, there are a great many people, like my husband, who enter AA and are able to completely turn themselves around and stay on the straight and narrow. AA is a very successful program for most alcoholics which is why it's so popular and wide ranging. It's a system that works and I have high hopes (yes, the dirty H word) that my husband will be one of those successful alcoholics within AA. Why? Because he wants his life back as badly as I do. He does have a lot of work to do but I do believe he can succeed. Which will indeed be the ultimate amends.

HealingWillCome

Stung, I appreciate your comments, and feel like I understand them. I have also lived a very success-driven life. For me success as a child and young adult equated to validation (I'm not saying that was your case, but just sharing my own reasons/need for success). Success validated my sense of worth because I had an alcoholic father who abandoned us when I was very young. It was a sub-conscious thing, but nonetheless, it was how I found my sense of self-worth. And it worked beautifully, right up until the point when I became married. Because in a marriage, you enter a partnership. And even if you have realistic expectations of that partner, you ultimately have no control over that partner, especially if the partner happens to have a relationship with alcohol or drugs or some other addiction.

When my marriage to my xah failed, I was crushed. Success-driven me? Failure? I was absolutely not used to failure of any kind, had never experienced it, especially not on that level. I had always been able to control my 'happiness' based on my 'successes'. It was hard to know that outsiders were judging my failed marriage, judging me after he left us for a young girl, etc. How could I have failed something so monumental when I was known as the success-driven young woman with the seemingly happy marriage and life?

I understand your defensiveness. I have been there. Accepting that things are less-than-perfect is humbling, hard for someone who is not used to failure.

I think that what people are attempting to convey is not that expectations are wrong. But that expectations of others (i.e. alcoholic husband) are dangerous. Expectations of ourselves are healthy and necessary. We can't control others. Only ourselves.

The beauty of Al-Anon (I know you're opposed, but I'm throwing this out there anyway) is that it is a program of personal growth. It actually has very little to do with the A's in our lives, but everything to do with growing a happy life, regardless of others' choices. I still rely on the fundamentals of Al-Anon even though I have no A in my life right now. So while your husband works his program, you may actually benefit him and your hope for a happy, healthy future together by working your own program of health and happiness.

Hope is not a dirty word. Hope is a beautiful thing. Expectations are not wrong, just often misplaced. We all hope for you, Stung. I personally don't believe that a happy, healthy future with your alcoholic husband is unlikely. I'm cheering for you. I am a strong believer in marriage and family values. But what I cheer for more than anything is that you find a happy, peaceful future for you and your children regardless of the recovery choices your husband makes. We really do care for you here.

AnvilheadII

stung, it's great that you took the time to reflect not only on this thread but your own reactions and where they comes from. at least for me, there are many times i'm not really reacting to the NOW as much as what the NOW reminds me of (the past).

you HAVE accomplished a lot in your life, with tenacity and determination. no one here is faulting you for that or saying you cannot continue to succeed. the line of demarcation is......your husband's journey with recovery is his....compare it for a moment to him deciding he wanted to run a marathon. you can train with him, prepare healthy foods, wash his stinky stuff....but on marathon day, it's up to HIM. it will be his to complete, and if he does cross the finish, his victory. every STEP he takes, is his.

obviously with addiction, whatever he does or doesn't do has a DIRECT impact on you. and of course you are full of hope for his success as you wish to continue to share your life with this man. just don't go lacing up HIS running shoes ok?

Fathom

Hugs, Stung. You are doing some difficult inward-looking and learning about yourself. Keep it up. We are here to support you and to learn as well. I use SR as a safe place to reflect on issues related to recovery. It is fruitful for me because sometimes the discussion goes in a different-than-expected direction and I get to think on a topic I wouldn't have landed on on my own. I am grateful when that happens because that's when my recovery seems to grow the most.

Re: hope and investments in relationships...

My dad is a financial planner, so I totally get your analogy. My dad is also incredibly codependent, and would chop off a limb to save someone if he thought there was the smallest chance that it would. He has an alcoholic tenant (in his 50s) who he treats like a teenage son, trying to teach him fiscal responsibility and neighborly manners. He has invested a lot in this guy. I'm talking energy investment and monitary investment. He has bailed him out of jail, driven across state lines to rescue him from some drama or another, determined to perjure himself in order to get this guy to not go to jail. My dad believed his stories that he wanted to be in recovery and could better prove himself if he could stay out of jail. So, my dad invested in him. He thought he would work it out. You know where this guy is now? In jail.

Now, I have mostly left my dad to make his own choices. I am working on recovery after all. He tries to talk with me about this guy all the time, giving me the latest update on his welfare. I usually change the subject. Once, in the very beginning, I shared a link to SR and to AlAnon with my dad, and then determined to let it be. My dad was in a fed up state with this guy and was so disappointed. He didn't want to give up hope in another human being. I found myself saying something that really opened my eyes about my own situation. "It's a mistake to give up hope in someone, because people can and do change. But, it's an even bigger mistake to stake your own life and happiness on that other person changing." Up until that point, I thought that I had lost hope for my XAH. But, then, I realized I hadn't lost hope. I was just learning how to invest in myself directly instead of pinning my dreams on him. That has worked out much better for me.

Wishing you peace,
Fathom

gothbarbie

my recent axbf has not made any sort of amends. to me yet. we were together for 2 years and in that two years he had an opiate addiction problem which I beg him to get help for always but it wasn't until he got sick with the withdrawals that he did. however with him going to rehab he let me go completely and I ended up pretty much homeless and I still have not heard a word from him since. this has been the most depressing time I've ever gone through in my entire life wondering always did we really have. something or didn't we. I'm not sure whether or not to even expect any sort of them and he is I think living in sober living for all I know I have no idea as we have not spoken in fourmonths

gothbarbie

all I know is that last night on my long drive I almost emailed him while driving through the city that we lived in together which would not have been a good idea. I had to call a friend to talk me out of the mailing him because one of my really looking for is not going to tell me what I want to hear. so he told me one thing that help me today is another day that will be the longest I've gone without reaching out and breaking my no contact rule. its been incredibly hard but I know I will push through

involved

So when you guys tell me that I can't, I won't, it's uikely, probably won't happen, don't have any expectations, it makes me feel like saying "watch me prove you wrong." Because that's what I do. I scrape and hustle and I prove to people that I can have everything that I want.

I get it...I have a fierce determination also. And when I hit a place where I have no choice but to rely on someone else to accomplish my goal, I am so frustrated! And Lawd help the person who tells me NO! That is Control and its step 1...the serenity prayer comes in handy most of the time.

I have been reading your previous posts and can identify with the frustration, shame, humiliation and anger.
I have sat in a few open AA meetings and I dont know why i am so surprised to see people from all walks of life in those rooms! You reald about celebreties every day who go to rehab! No one person or family is perfect. AA calls alcoholism an alergy of the body and an obsession of the mind. So please dont feel ashamed or embarrassed. I too am proud and have a hard time asking for help and fear judgement. That is my insecurities! I know I am strong but feel the need to make sure mo one sees the vulnerable spot in the armor. We all need a hug and some understanding....and maybe thats why you feel the need to ask about step 9. You are just starting to learn about your husbands disease and I have searched for these same answers. I think its a pretty natural question! But deep down what I really want is for this all to be behind us and things to be roses...back to the beginning ...see no one or family is perfect! Whose to say he doesnt get thru this to get some illness! Cant predict or controll that either. I read on here and struggle with more will be revealed. I dont think complete understanding would make it better. I think if he would just understand my pain he would finally see and things would be great! But thats not the case...the guilt can make things worse for an A. He has to work thru his stuff and on his timeline, not mine. Hammer has suggested reading the big book and in my opinion will help answer a lot of questions. The first 164 pages are the "program". Then we have to figure out how to deal with the rest. I think thats what people are saying in these posts. He has to work on his underlying issues and the damage he has done...and we have to work on ourselves so as to let go of the resentments and find patience and tolerance. Understand to recognize progress and not expect perfection. And to leave the outcome in gods hands because sister it sure is hard when you are a strong willed woman! Hugs and best wishes! Hope that disnt ramble too much.

PohsFriend

Hang in there Stung. You just described Poh and I to the letter - two years ago.

I think there are a couple dynamics that are tricky around here. There are two happy outcomes - one with a recovered alcoholic and one for those whose alcoholic does not recover. For the former, hope is essential, for the latter it can be toxic.

For those who are with an active alcoholic who will never choose recovery the path to happiness requires that they see things as they really are and it cant be easy watching the lucky ones whose partners attack recovery like they used to attack the bottle.

....and for those who understand that they are facing an uphill battle it is hard to hear the predictions of doom. Two years after I was told my wife and I would never get here I still hear 'well you guys will probably still fail' and I think "I sure will if I listen to that".

Maybe this makes sense: there are three recoveries, his, hers, couples and the last is only possible if ALL THREE occur. Pursuing it means taking a risk. - you can do everything right and have your hopes dashed many times so for those who go through that there comes a point where they realize that they need to let go of their hopes for the other person and their marriage and take the last lifeboat for themselves then paddle like hell to get away while fighting off the guilt and sadness that must take.

We all want one another to find happiness and can probably all do better to make sure we convey that.

I am lucky - when I grabbed that lifeboat my wife jumped overboard swam after my ass, dragged me back onto the boat and told me to sit down, shut up and grab my oar because she wasn't ready to go down without a fight and we're rowing together, and individually toward a shared goal. ...otherwise one of us would be going in circles while the food and water ran out killing us both. I think that's why some warnings come across more harshly than intended.

Some make it to shore - those trying to need to know its there in order to keep going and that's why we snarl and want to stick an oar up someone's ass when they tell us we are rowing toward a hurricane.

There's my metaphor for this week ;-)

PohsFriend

Just read this to Poh and she had some thoughts for you too. She can pm you if you like. She doesn't read or post on this forum and I don't venture into her stuff by I read your post above to her and her first thought was that the four of us are related, second was 'tell her to read chapter 9 in the big book - the family afterward'.

She had another thought that she's happy to share if you want to chat privately.

She sends a big hug. She is pretty frigging incredibly wonderful and lying here watching a movie, munching popcorn and giggling at our goofy 15 month old who she's looking at through alert, sparkling and very clear eyes.

Booo

Stung, I feel you. Such an innocent question has he power to trigger so Many people! I am really really proud of you for asking the question and weathering the answers.
Really brave stuff.
You can do whatever you want.
I dream of Ryan gosling too.
Best thoughts to you.

Stung

LOL Booo!! I prefer to dream of Prince Harry but Ryan Gosling is a good runner up!