FireSprite

I do see what you're saying but I guess I don't see it that way at all. ANYONE can make a big, grand overture with enough practice. Those BIG moments IRL are rarely as genuine to the core as they appear on the surface.

I have found that the closer RAH gets to the full "understanding" the more humble he becomes & the more he feels & has to work through his own shame... negating his very ability to MAKE such a grand gesture especially since he never was "that" guy in the first place. If he did it now I think I would find it more disingenuous.

Now, if your RAH has the kind of personality where those kinds of gestures are truly a part of his "normal" communication, that's a different story.

Stung

Hammer,

I don't want to live a life of no expectations.

Bigger risks = bigger rewards.

Bigger = Better

I want big rewards for my work and my investment. I'm investing time and emotional stock in my husband. There will either be a good return or he's going to completely flop. I haven't dealt with investing in a recovering alcoholic yet (which is both good and oddly bad because I have no idea what to expect) but I've heard stories that make me think that a good pay off is well worth the risk of entering.

Stung

He's very romantic by nature. Like butterflies-in-your-stomach and a-huge-stupid-smile-you-can't-wipe-off-of-your-face-if-you-tried romantic. With his nosedive into alcoholism his romantic gestures turned less romantic and more monetary. I don't want money, I can do that on my own.

AnvilheadII

I want big rewards for my work and my investment. I'm investing time and emotional stock in my husband. There will either be a good return or he's going to completely flop. I haven't dealt with investing in a recovering alcoholic yet (which is both good and oddly bad because I have no idea what to expect) but I've heard stories that make me think that a good pay off is well worth the risk of entering.

that doesn't sound like a relationship, it sounds like a competition. or a slot machine....i've been on this machine for 3 hours now, i've already spent $400 and i know ANY MINUTE NOW it's going to hit.

thing is, NO ONE can live up to your expectations......people are who they are, faults and all. and people are not in our lives to be who WE want them to be. i'm not sure you see just how controlling and ego filled your "demands" are.....you aren't giving any room for him to be his own person, whoever that may be. you already have your own clear concept of what his AMENDS MUST look like....and how he MUST transform into what YOU want. however that means you do not accept him for who he is, only who you WANT him to be. trying to re-create him in your own image.

you seem to believe that you are pretty much without fault and thus have no need for any introspection or reflection....but you INSIST that your husband work those steps, go to meetings, get recovery and do so FOR YOU. so that you get the PAY OFF.

FireSprite

I think it comes down to a bit of semantics too Stung - what you consider reasonable expectations, etc. This is an old post of mine in reply to one of ShootingStar's threads & while it may not be 100% relevant here to you, I think the difference between expecting & having expectations is pretty huge:

Lyssy

I asked via a similar post a few months ago. Here is the link.

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...23-amends.html

I agree with others, when it comes the the A - loose all expectations. Period. If it happens - that's great, but don't expect any action from them.

This may not be what you want to hear, but it is the reality of the situation you are in. Trust yourself. Expect of yourself. Respect yourself. Yourself is what you can depend on, trust and have expectations from.

Stung

Anvil, no. I have my faults and I'm working on my own faults. I only know that this exists because he's working a specific program. The fact that HE is working a 12 step program does not dictate that *I* need to work a 12 step program. His recovery doesn't need to mirror my own emotional evolvement or vice versa.

I have expectations. Yes. I have them because he's telling me that he's going to do something and I have faith and trust that these things just might happen. He's setting the bar, not me. I believe that if I have faith and trust then there might be a better chance for those things to happen because that's what the sum of my life experiences have taught me. No one encouraged me to go to college but I did it anyway and I paid for it myself 100%. No one told me that I could have a wedding exactly as I wanted it, but I did and I paid for it myself. Because I think that these things might actually happen I am allowing myself to indulge a little bit and think about the good part where I can forgive him.

P.S. The investment bit is a joke of an analogy. Hammer is making a joke about using formulas because I'm an accountant. I'm making one back. It was obviously ill received. My apologies.

Truly, I think my mistake is posing this question at the wrong outlet. I don't think there are many people with happy stories that hang out here so this is akin to asking penguins what it feels like to fly.

Florence

Yikes, uh. Please don't make assumptions about what others have gone through and what their motivations are based on your short time here. Your story and mine are almost identical. We are just suggesting that interrogate your expectations and what about this Nicholas Sparks fantasy tickles your bone and whether or not this is the hill you want to die on.

I fly regardless of what my partner is doing, or whether I have one at all, and I learned to do that here. Humility got me off the ground.

Hammer

Where to start on this?

Not meaning anything harsh or harmful or any sort of attack.

But someone has got to be real with you, and you were asking for a Reality Check . . . so here goes.

[Hammer faints ]

omigod, friend-girl.

You have some work to do. Some real work to do.

Part you have not fully figured in this.

When and if he does get fully cleaned up and you are still harboring and carrying Total User Crap Like This . . . He will be well enough to DUMP YOU. And he likely will if this is the way you plan on coming out the back of all this.

Sorry on being so direct.

Like I say, this is not ANY SORT of Attack. Just being real with you. And you seem as big as bone-head as me, and the only time I tend to get things when people are real straight and direct with me.

[add on edit -- I see you say you are joking, but we kind of all know we are not joking, right? When I call you a bone-head accountant . . . it is funny because that is what things are, right?]

FireSprite

Ok, but do you see the difference between this:

And this:


In the first, all of your expectations hang on HIS promises, words & subsequent actions. In the 2nd, it's all based around you, which is all you ever have control over.

This thread has moved away from the original question of amends & become much more about expectations.

Stung

Forget it. Just please forget that I even asked. I'm not trying to **** people off but I'm apparently doing a great job of that.

I don't mean to imply that your lives suck but how many people replied to this thread can say that their significant other became an alcoholic and then came out of it and was able to successfully manage it and salvage their marriage? To my knowledge there aren't many active users that respond here with stories like that.

I also said that I'm future tripping and said on my original post that he may never get out of step one but you guys keep beating me over the head with that. Yeah, I get it. I prefaced all of your responses with by saying that.

I thought I was asking a simple question. I apparently asked a loaded question and I make it more loaded each time I respond. Just forget that I asked. Poh and Firesprite gave me the perspective that I was looking for, and thank you very much for that. By the time that he's at a point to make an amends, it won't really matter because at that point his actions will be speaking louder than words anyway. Thanks and sorry. Geesh.

readerbaby71

I don't think you've pissed anyone off, Stung. People are giving you their perspectives and experiences. Some of them might not be telling you what you want to hear but it's not a personal attack against you. I often read things that give me a visceral reaction of anger. That usually means there's some truth in what people are telling me.

Some have been through absolute hell so I can understand why they're cynical, but I believe everyone here wishes you and your husband the best. I know I do. I'm very optimistic about my relationship, recovery and my boyfriend's recovery. Sometimes I don't read certain threads that are all doom and gloom because I am not in the mood for negativity and am also very sensitive.

Pick and choose what you read, and never take anything personally.
xoxoxox

Thumper

My experience has taught me that it is best to keep my expectations, dreams, and trust in myself. Those I can work towards and attain. You are putting your expectations, faith, and trust in him. That led to nothing but difficulties for me personally.

My 'reality check' is that you try and flip your expectations to things you control. Set your own bar. For me it was something like this - I expect a husband of mine to be sober, to be working an honest program of his choosing, to support his family both financially and emotionally, and to be....blah blah blah. I trust myself to not accept less. I have faith that I am strong enough to make choices that support me.

^^ That is fundamentally different. As different as your college example. You had faith in yourself that you could get a college education. You made choices that supported that. Very different from having faith that a benefactor would pay for your college. There is no way to make choices that support that. You sit and hope. Hope is not a strategy.

JustAGirl1971

Count me in the 'not offended' club (& my relationship is obviously not working out.) Honestly, Stung, expectations set us up for disappointment and our relationships for failure, even when neither party is an A. The problem with expectations is that they are usually about ME. What *I* want. What *I* need. That's kind of ok if I'm in control of their execution. (I want financial security; therefore, I work hard, save harder.) Problem is, even then, something can come along and wipe out the financial security I've worked so hard for. Now, despite working hard and saving harder, I'm still broke and I'm pissed off/resenting the hell out of whatever stole my financial security.

Now, add a second person into the mix, and it's even worse. I'm working hard, saving harder, but my partner is spending harder than I'm saving...

In the end, no matter how great my expectations are of or for that other person, I have NO control over their execution. I WILL be disappointed when that other person doesn't do what I expected (& they won't.) Now, I'm pissed off & resenting the other person.

I say this because it is exactly what I've done in my marriage. Look how well it worked out for me....

Now, I am choosing to depend on my HP (God for me) to take care of me. Yes, I will still work hard and save harder. If that means I'm financially secure, awesome! If some catastrophe comes along, I know I'll still be ok one way or the other because my God will take care of me

I probably suck at explanations...

AnvilheadII

i actually have a very "happy" story....both myself and my husband are former crack addicts who live very healthy happy productive lives today. i was ready much sooner than he to be DONE and that created some problems to be sure. for awhile i DID try to drag him along kicking and screaming, i made the mistake of thinking HE needed to be on board in order for ME to proceed. well that didn't go well.

so learned about boundaries, and about putting my own recovery FIRST, regardless of what HE choose to do. and those boundaries told me i could no longer live with active addiction. and if he was going to continue to use, then i was out. i had no expectations for him, only for myself. now, did i HOPE he'd quit? OF COURSE. but i could not hinge my own health and sanity on that.

he came to his own conclusions in his own time - not without some drama for sure. whatever manner and method, whatever internal dialogue he had - is none of my business. he hit a couple bumps along the way - one year a friend brought some coke with him for hank's bd and hank did NOT say no. i was livid but simply removed myself from the situation. next day, it was gone, done and that was that. since that time there have been opportunities and he said no thanks. his resolve has grown stronger. WITHOUT ME HAVING ANYTHING TO DO WITH IT.

i never wanted to control or change hank....i just wanted the damn crack to do away. IT had control. man what a beast. all else worked out in it's own way and it's own time and as it should.

SparkleKitty

I consider my story to be pretty happy! But it doesn't look the way I thought it would pre-recovery. It was only when I let go of what the definition of a happy ending HAD to be that I could find the happy ending that was RIGHT for me.

jessicajoe

Hiya Stung
Hugs to you. I feel like you might be feeling like you've been given a hard time.
I remember when I first came here I heard some stuff that felt harsh at the time and I got all ouchie. I hope that's not how you're feeling.

My partner has been sober and attending AA every day for nearly five weeks.
Now my history is probably very different from yours. We don't have kids together and we still have our own places although we are generally to be found under the same roof.
Do I occasionally entertain fantasies about amends ? I've thought hard about that and yeah a part of me would like him to say "I remember that vacation I spoiled or the night I threw up on you and you are a wonderful person for staying with me I'm so sorry" but to be absolutely honest I'm just grateful he is trying and we have a chance.
I know you aren't really interested in AlAnon and that is absolutely your choice but for me I've been thinking recently that its skills I've been learning at AlAnon that are helping me support/let him get on with his recovery in a whole different way than I might have. I was thinking in my head recently that he wasn't doing enough about finding a new job. The old me would have been all over that, finding links,typing resumes, nag nag nag. Lo and behold he has spent the last three days solidly looking all of his own doing.
Honestly sometimes I look at him and what might have came out as a request/demand/nag before I just suck up because....wow.....a month and he's still going every day and really trying.
I hope him and I get to be one of these success stories you don't see posted Stung but if we don't I hope I get to be my own kind of success story.
Either way, for me, him working his program and making him the best he can be (which in turn helps make us the best we can be) is truly my best case scenario.
This is what I want Stung
I hope you get what you want.
In the mean time I send you friendly hugs.

LvWrAM123

It doesn't sound like it is so much the flowery apology you want, but that you want him to UNDERSTAND & ACKNOWLEDGE the pain and heartache his actions have caused you. That is reasonable. When my hubby was in rehab I had to write an Impact Letter. I spent about 10 days on it, because the first letter was over 6 single spaced pages long I edited down to 3 pages. He had this read to him in a group setting. He has read it several times since, and him having told me that, and knowing he can go back to it on days he needs a reminder, and his comments that while it was hard to hear, that it really helped him to understand how his addiction/actions were affecting me and the kids, was very comforting to me. There wasn't a lot new in the latter that hadn't been said before, but having it all laid out at once, in black and white, was different. That before he always rationalized his actions that he "wasn't hurting anyone" and at the time, in throes of active addiction, I think he believed that himself. Anyway, it was cathartic for me to write, and it helped ME feel like that he better understood what impacts he had on me.

I had big expectations that when he came home from rehab that somehow he would come home the prince and treat me like the queen or something, to make up for all he'd put me threw and that resulted in me spending Christmas and the day after spontaneously crying and feeling really let down that my expectations hadn't been met. We had a tough talk and I cried myself to sleep-felt like he was telling me, I'm taking care of me and that's hard, and if you are feeling bad, that's unfortunate, but I can't fix you-you need to fix you. I was PO'd until I started to realize that from his perspective, focusing on his rehab and going to meetings and working with his sponsor and staying sober, was really all he had the capacity to give right now, and instead of "settling" for "I'm not going to get the queen treatment right now" I reframed my expectations-because really, what I TRUELY want isn't the queen treatment at all or the romantic apology, what I TRUELY want is a sober, loving husband, and his actions, today, are just exactly that.

I'm not sure he still FULLY understands the depth of my hurts yet, but we have a good start, and we start couples therapy next week. He's told me that every time he looks at me it is a reminder of what he's done and how much he's hurt me, and that it is a struggle for him, because he spent a month in rehab trying to admit and acknowledge and resolve his shame so he can get past it to a place of recovery. Like Poh's friend, I have concluded that every sober day is a show of amends, and since I want him to be successful, I don't see how heaping on shame or making him feel like he can't live up to my expectations helps.

I see a lot of myself in you in many ways. I resisted buying CoNoMo, but did and am few chapters in. I still reject the "codependent" label for myself, but certainly found a few things on the checklist I could circle (who couldn't-right?), and I can acknowledge that I like to be in control, and I DO think there a few things in that book that I will find helpful-I even highlighted a few passages! I haven't attended al anon yet -my babysitter fell through last week when I'd planned to go, and I seem to keep finding excuses, but the truth is, I am open to it and have intentions to go, which is further along than I was a month or 2 ago. Even just a few weeks ago, I was feeling like, this isn't my fault, and I'm a busy person, and because of YOU, and after all you've put me through, now I'm the one who has to go to therapy, couples, al anon, etc. Are you kidding me?

But...I still want the happily ever after with this guy, and he's working the steps, and growing, and (even if I feel I am more evolved than him, lol), I don't want to be like the Hare who thinks he's so far ahead of the tortoise that he can slack off, because I don't want him to pass me by! I'd rather grow and heal together, and find the new path we are meant to be on together, and I am still hoping it is even more beautiful than the path we were on before everything fell off the rails.

P.S. I don't think anyone is ticked off at you or trying to be harsh-just offering their insights on what they are hearing and what they have experienced.

MissFixit

hi stung,

sorry if you felt ganged up on, but you did come across as a bit arrogant in this thread. i get that you have self esteem, i have it too. it is just something to temper with gratitude and graciousness when you can. people here really do mean good and are trying to help you.

you do seem like a very nice, fun and smart person. i think we would be friends in real life.

as far as your ah goes, bottom line is you cannot count on him the way that you previously thought you could. maybe its just him or maybe its a life lesson about people. you need to decide what works for you. if the way he is does not work for you, then perhaps you move on. if you want to give him a chance, then you try to work it out...compromises from both sides. if he never gives you the storybook life you want, is that okay with you? will you resent him or make him miserable? do you think that someone else would give you that life? what will you do for ah/that other person to meet their needs? these are not questions to answer, just to think about.

Aeryn

I don't like to talk about my XRAH on here because in my recovery I sort of decided that wasn't something I wanted to do anymore and that I wanted my life to be about me not him...it just sort of feels not right...but I'm going to make an exception.

My XRAH has not made amends to me and I don't want him to, if he does ok I guess but I don't need him to. We talk at least once a week and have been developing a friendship based on who we are now, now if I was the old me and he the old him we would probably see his recovery as "success" and try to get back together because I dunno why really I guess we thought we needed each other to live...the thing is we don't need each other, we are just enjoying each other for now as friends in this particular stretch of time....so his "success" doesn't mean the marriage goes back together..and his "success" has absolutely nothing to do with my success. His success did not bring me authentic joy or happiness (though it is helping him in that regard and I'm happy or him), the only person that provide that for myself is me..I brought that to myself by finding myself and doing things I enjoy...by actually living rather than trying to patch together a relationship that wasn't meant to be. Here's a confession..he may at some point want to see about getting back together and I'm probably going to say no...I don't know where I will be then because I'm dating and living my life so I can't plan it, expect it or circle my life around it....and my current thoughts at this point in my life are I don't want to be in that kind of relationship with an alcoholic, recovering or not...but I can't predict how I will feel in the future nor am I going to worry about it now.

The above said - while my XRAH didn't make amends he did make some confessions (which I value much more). He confessed that like a typical alcoholic he was very manipulative and grandiose while in his disease and one of the ways he manipulated was by pretending to go along with the "recovery attempts" of the past - the ones I had a hand in (either directly or through subtle manipulation like telling him to do it or move out). He confessed to me that for each of those recovery attempts he had no intention of quitting drinking forever, his intentions were only to not drink long enough to prove to himself and not me that he wasn't really an alcoholic. So there it was...the truth - the only real attempt he has made at recovery is this current one, the one he initiated without me on his own. He also confessed to me that like a typical alcoholic he was a salesman...he could do what was expected to keep the peace in order to continue drinking...now that wasn't a bunch of apologies in his case but a bunch of gestures: gifts, doing chores around the house, taking me out etc. Those confessions meant more to me than a grand amends ever could - serenity for me is accepting things as they are and not how I wish them to be and that was a big step for me in that at the time.

Now is your AH like mine? Who knows? Only he knows that. And you have no control over it...so I have no advice other than to listen to your authentic self, that little voice hidden below that really knows what's up. For me that was about step 1: I cannot control the alcoholic. I cannot control the people, places, things or events surrounding the alcoholic (that included things like whether or not he would pay his share of our joint bills or not...a big deal for me personally). I cannot control the people, places, things or events surrounding the people, places, things or events surrounding the alcoholic. For me personally I had to really see how that circle of non-control went past just the alcoholic...not sure at all if it will help you but I thought I'd throw it out there since it came to mind reading all the posts here. It was very freeing for me...and I'm not really an Alanon person (I'm a therapy-recovery person, I only did step 1), I went in the very beginning of my recovery/therapy though and during those times it helped me a lot.

This is definitely not an attack from me just some ESH to do with whatever you want...or not. When I feel attacked I start thinking about why I feel that way and for me it went back to some childhood stuff with my NPD mother I had been repressing (not saying that applies to you just giving my ESH). Once I do that I usually see it differently - again that's just my ESH in case it might be useful not advice at all.


Take what you want and leave the rest.


PS - I just had sort of an aha moment for myself....I just realized that the reason I feel attacked in situations similar to this sometimes is because my NPD mother always judged me and punished me when I tried to me myself rather than what she wanted me to be...so I spent my life trying to please her and when I didn't I would be severely emotionally punished (by things like spreading horrible lies about me to my friends and family...shaming lies). My personal reaction would be to hide and cut off anyone she lied to and to repress the anger and feel shame....so today when people give advice or say things contrary to what I feel I think that same reaction comes out in me...sorry totally off topic but I wanted to type it out while it is in my head. Again not saying anything at all about you, just something about me....that's why I still come to the boards responding to others sometimes helps me find something myself.