Crazed

Disclaimer: Topic not meant to start a pro/anti AA stance. I am looking for viewpoints from angles other than my own.

So the last time I spoke with EXAG, she mentioned she was working her 4th step. And part of me thought, "how many times do you need to rehash and relive this stuff? You have been reliving traumatic childhood experiences, all of your self esteem issues, etc, for 25 years. Through therapy, AA, 12-step, rehabs, etc. How do you expect to move forward, when you just keep focusing on all of the stuff that makes you act out, and "numb-out?"

How the 12 step program for alcoholics works I don't understand. It seems to focus on powerlessness, giving up self will, focusing on your negative points, etc. The whole concept of powerlessness, and introducing yourself as an alcoholic (which I believe still does have a societally negative connotation), just seems to be so self defeating. If they were incorporated into motivational courses or business success classes, the writers would be out of business. Could you imagine if Tony Robbins or Zig Ziglar's motivational class started out with phrases about being powerless?

I once read an anti-AA article on the web where the person stated something along the lines of "Instead of measuring your self worth by how many pots of coffee you brew in a church basement, or how much literature you haul to the prison meetings, why don't you take some action for YOU and enroll in that college course. Work hard and get a good grade, and maybe you will feel like you accomplished something. Set goals, and achieve those goals, which is something that 12 step programs don't really seem to embrace." [paraphrased]

There is the saying that "success breeds success." Or "we are products of our environment." I look around and believe these things. Evolution shows that animals will change shapes, and colors, etc, to adapt to their environment. So if you put an alcoholic in an environment which is surrounded by alcoholics, wouldn't that just serve to promote continuation of the physical and mental manifestations of the disease? (google psychosomatic disorder).

Thoughts?

choublak

Recovery tools are just like any other tools, they can be used or misused.

AnvilheadII

oy, where to start? first, it says NOWHERE in the AA literature that you sit in meetings for the rest of your days and bemoan all the ills befallen you and that you have committed. have you READ the Big Book? at the very least How It Works? and Into Action? i'd suggest you start there.....

meetings are not mentioned.
sponsors are not mentioned.
reaching out to fellow alcoholics IS mentioned.
trust god, clean house, help others.

tony Robbins is a load of hooey. snake oil salesman who makes MILLIONS telling others how great their lives CAN be, for a price of course. his altruism stops at the cash register.

I say gently that your EX AGF is perhaps not the most shining example of recovery in action, or the "model" of a recovery addict/alcoholic.

I guess to follow your line of reasoning, who YOU continue to choose to focus on and interact with probably serves to promote the physical and emotional manifestations of YOUR disease??? once upon a time you PRAYED she'd stop drinking....now she had and TODAY you are now questioning the entire 12 step process as it applies to HER. cuz you are still not satisfied and she still has not become who you want her to be. so it must be the alcohol, or AA or something else.......the one place you are NOT looking is in the mirror.

Dee74

I think drinking and not working on my recovery keeps me sick - and I say that as a non AA member.

I did get a lot out of the Big Book tho - I recommend you read it to get some idea of what AA is about

D

DoubleBarrel

I am also far from being an AA fanboy, but I think that your characterization of how AA functions, and what people do there are pretty off base.

Being powerless over alcohol does not mean that you are powerless over your actions.

Oftentimes, looking at the wreckage of the past and dealing with it is something that
A. Addicts have avoided doing and need to clear up.

B. Allow us to "start with a clean slate" and move FORWARD.

C. Examine ourselves, who we are and why we are, i.e. how we tick. When you are constantly running from uncomfortable situations and feelings into a bottle, introspection is a rare thing. That is why many people feel that we are emotionally stopped at the age we started drinking. I don't 100% agree that is true, but there is something about it that says, you cannot mature and develop as a healthy person when you wont face anything.

Carlotta

I think that the person who is locked up behind bars, isolated and in the throes of his alcoholism would disagree. Having someone from the outside coming once a week to deliver a message of hope can be a lifeline for prisoners.

I guess it is how you define success and what kind of values you have: From a purely selfish/materialistic standpoint maybe someone who devotes hours to his prison commitment or someone like Dee who works tirelessly moderating this forum is not successful but from a spiritual standpoint they sure are making a difference and they stay sober.

DoubleBarrel

Yes, you are correct.

And what you aren't differentiating between is ALCOHOLICS in RECOVERY, and ACTIVE ALCOHOLICS.

LexieCat

Those infomercial gurus also tell you that it's EASY to make a gazillion dollars, or become a dynamic, successful person. So why aren't the people plunking down that cash for the courses running the country? Because it's NOT that easy. But people sure want to believe it is.

AA talks about the "easier, softer way." Experience has shown that that kind of fluffy stuff doesn't TOUCH alcoholism in many alcoholics. That's why AA was created--a couple of the hopeless variety of drunks literally stumbled on the answer.

You're not an alcoholic, nor are you trained in addiction treatment. You don't have to understand how or why it works (though if you want a clue, I too would suggest you read the Big Book--ALL the way through). I hope you aren't offering these opinions to your EX (??) girlfriend. If she's staying sober, maybe she's got a chance.

DesertEyes

No worries. Your questions come up on SR about 2 or 3 times a week, although usually the questions are in the forums where you find peeps that actually go to AA. Asking those questions in a forum for _relatives_ of peeps who go to AA is not going to give you first-person answers.

Well, it depends. Is your EXAG drinking? Is she in jail for some alcohol related crime? Is she in a hospital for alcohol related injuries? If she is _not_ drinking, and not committing crimes, etc. etc. then the answers would be quite different.

Pardon me for not going back through your posts, you said that she is your EXAG. If she is your "ex", why do you care? The general rule of thumb in recovery is to work on _my_ life in _my_ present and work toward _my_ future and stop focusing on my past.

um... no. See, the program is _just_ the 12 steps. All the rest of the literature, books, pamphlets, etc. is just examples and commentary so that peeps can have some context and direction as to how they want to apply those 12 steps in their own life.

Close, it's about giving up _selfish_ will. The terminology can be tricky if you are not familiar with it.

Terminology problem again, it's about focusing on _improving away_ from the negative points.

It's not "introducing", it's "accepting". Much like a diabetic has to accept they can't eat sugar.

Depends on your definition of "success". If a person is _not_ drinking, and their life is better, then that is generally considered a "success".

well.... if you really want to get into the meat of the matter. Motivational courses, business success classes ( such as TQM, as just one example ) are all based on some very old concepts in psychology. They come from the work of people like Jung and James. Those old concepts have been refined quite a bit in the last 70 years or so, but the foundation is the same.

1- Awareness that there is a problem ( i.e.: lack of motivation, poor quality control, etc. )
2- Acceptance that change is necessary.
2- Action that will cause that change.

All of psychology is based on those 3 principles. The 12 steps of AA are nothing new, they just extended the above 3 principles and focused on addiction.

The problem with anecdotes such as the one you quote is that there is always some other anecdote that demonstrates the opposite.

A better measurement of "self worth", that can be applied to a specific individual instead of generalizing across an entire population, is to ask the _children_ of an alcoholic if daddy or mommy has stopped beating them since they started AA.

In my personal experience as a child, if my parents had joined a cult, danced to some weird god deep into the night and ran around the airport wearing robes I would have been joyous to the point of tears because at least for that one night I would not get beat. To that child, the definition of "success" is quite narrow.

That only works in western, technological societies. In most of the world there are huge populations of people who are, basically, starving. They work 10 - 12 hours a day for dirt and still die from malnutrition. To them, "working hard" is not a goal, it's a curse. Good grades requires a country with a solid educational system, and a lot of money to pay the tuition, books, uniforms, etc.

The 12 step programs are intended to be used across the entire planet. Saddling them with cultural values is exactly what they intentionally want to avoid.

Well no, that's Lamarck. Evolution says that animals lucky enough to have the right shape, color, etc. have a chance to reproduce. The animal does not _adapt_ to the environment. The environment kills off the animals who are unlucky.

Depends. Try it with different terms. If you put a diabetic in an environment which is surrounded by diabetics, what happens?

Depends on the diabetics. If they are all pigging out on cake they are all going to die. However, if they are all in a hospital training program learning how to cook healthy meals then they might all live.

The central issue when evaluating _any_ program of recovery ( not just AA but any kind of therapy, or rehab ) is to look at the _results_. Not at the theory.

Which brings me back to my question at the top. Is _your_ EXAG drinking? Is she in jail? Hospitalized? If the answer is "no", then AA has met the definition of "success".

The definition of "success" in al-anon is much more complicated. It involves things like "Is the alanoid obsessing about their qualifier?", "... overworking and over-responsible in order to cover up low self esteem?", etc. etc.

I hope I addressed your questions. If not, you might want to read thru the AA sections here on SR and you will see how the program works for them.

Mike

fluffyflea

The A.A program IS ALL about ACTION be it making pots of coffee,taking lit to the prisons,doing 4rth and 5th steps to better your life.

It is actions which don,t keep you sick. That is a myth.

Crazed

Thanks all for the insight. Perhaps I shouldn't have mentioned EXAG, as my post was meant to be general purpose in nature about alcoholics and AA (12-step) in general.

Perhaps a read of the Big Book would help me understand.

Anvil- I got a lot out of the first half of your post. The final paragraph is pretty far off base from how I am feeling and the intent of my original post.

I thought adaptation and natural selection was the basis for Darwanism.

I know it works. There are shining examples on SR. EXAG is apparently 4 months+ sober. It is working for her. And I hope it will continue to work for anyone else. In my logical, engineer brain, I am just trying to understand how it can work...

I know, I know... alcoholism is not logical....

bigbasscat

Other than to point out that the disease of addiction/alcoholism isn't a single mechanism disease, and there is no explanation for success or failure of recovery other than a dedication by the individual to sobriety, it's really a case of whatever works, works.

Some folks I know came to the realization that they had a drug or alcohol problem and called it quits w/o issue, and other people I know go through multiple rehab stays, the whole nine and still fail to stay in recovery - this addiction stuff is soft science, not physics or structural engineering.

As to environmental factors, my agf lives with me, and I've brought her into all manner of help with her alcoholism, and it's been a complete failure. Other folks I did the same for got sober and stayed sober - and I've got 28 years clean and 24 years sober. She couldn't have asked for a better environment to be in for sobriety, and in the end (as in she's passed out in the bedroom right now) it didn't make any difference.

tomsteve

"So if you put an alcoholic in an environment which is surrounded by alcoholics, wouldn't that just serve to promote continuation of the physical and mental manifestations of the disease? (google psychosomatic disorder).:

put em in with practicing alcoholic...yes

put em in with recovering alcoholics, ones that have found a solution and are willing to help for free, no.


not sure what yer point to it all is, but ya got a pretty screwed up conception of AA, but as deserteyes said, theres nothing unique to what ya typed. happens often.


if ya really want to find out what AA is about, don't bother googling psychomatic disorder. google big book online and read the 1st 164 pages.


we don't focus on negative points. we find em and get rid of em.


IMO, you don't have to understand.

ive read anti AA articles,too. always a good laugh.

DesertEyes

In that case, you have my apologies. I completely keyed on the EXAG in my reply.

Perhaps. I suggest you keep the book in context. It was written _seventy_ years ago, back when men still wore hats. There is a chapter "to the Wives" that is completely out of date. If you want a bit of a view at how difficult, and unfair, life was for women at that time in history that chapter is a good example.

The book has a number of personal stories in the back. They are good illustrations as to how the program works at an individual level.

Delighted to discuss it with you, but perhaps in some other thread?

If you want to understand it from a logical, rational perspective then I recommend you first look into how psychology works in general. The 12 step programs, of which AA is just one, are a form of psychology known as "peer to peer support". If you start with a "big picture" approach to therapy first, and afterwards look at the 12 step programs in particular, I think you will find it much easier and quicker.

Mike

LexieCat

Here's a quick explanation of the difference between adaptation (Lamarck) and natural selection (Darwin): Evolution

Hammer

<cough, bullsh1t, cough>

Just saying.

Engineers do not research a topic without a cause.

Even if it is totally self-supporting biased "research."

Takes one to know one, my brother. Tonight's read for Hammer -- "Loving Someone with Borderline Personality Disorder." No real point in bs-ing myself nor anyone else as to why.

Loving Someone with Borderline Personality Disorder: How to Keep Out-of-Control Emotions from Destroying Your Relationship: Shari Y. Manning PhD, Marsha M. Linehan PhD

Yeah, parts are good, parts not so much. (mho) I absolutely hate the "To The Wives" section. That would be you and me. Go figure.

Really sort of kinda is very logical if you want to wander into bio-chemisty, bio-engineering, and brain physiology. But AA does not seem to need to do that. Those are our own limitations.

But here is the part (mho) on where to start understanding it . . .

Mostly a walk by faith, and not by sight thing, as far as I can tell.

Dirt simple if you would tone down the brain and open your heart and soul.

==================

How it works

RARELY HAVE we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average. There are those, too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest.

Our stories disclose in a general way what we used to be like, what happened, and what we are like now. If you have decided that you want what we have and are willing to go to any length to get it - then you are ready to take certain steps.

At some of these we balked. We thought that we could find an easier, softer way. But we could not. With all earnestness at our command, we beg of you to be fearless and thorough from the very start. Some of us have tried to hold on to our old ideas and the result was nil until we let go absolutely.

Remember that we deal with alcohol - cunning, baffling, powerful! Without help it is too much for us. But there is One who has all power - that One is God. May you find him now.

Half measures availed us nothing. We stood at the turning point. We asked His protection and care with complete abandon.

Here are the steps we took, which are suggested as a program of recovery:

1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol - that our lives had become unmanageable.

2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.

9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.

11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

Many of us exclaimed, "What an order! I can't go through with it." Do not be discouraged. No one among us has been able to maintain anything like perfect adherence to these principles. We are not saints. The point is, that we were willing to grow along spiritual lines. The principles we have set down are guides to progress. We claim spiritual progress rather than spiritual perfection.

Our description of the alcoholic, the chapter to the agnostic, and our personal adventures before and after make clear three pertinent ideas:

(a) That we were alcoholic and could not manage our own lives.

(b) That probably no human power could have relieved our alcoholism.

(c) That God could and would if He were sought.

Crazed

Seriously- not BS. For years I have gone back and forth about if AA and 12-step help or hurt based on MY interpretation from the few meetings I have been to. The motivation for my post has nothing to do with any current feelings about EXAG. She is happy with AA, and sober- appears to be doing fine. God bless her and the program, as it appears to be working for her.

My post was for me, and my perception of AA, and to get an understanding from the elders on SR who have lived it and could help explain.

Crazed

Good advice. Tough for an engineering mind.

Hammer

Man, you said a mouthful.

My first hard pass into this was going through PTSD recovery type stuff after I cleared the Army. Back in the 90's. When you slow down a little all the stuff can start to catch up with you.

As part of that I took a walk down into the inside to check out my heart. Was expecting to see a Big Red Beefsteak Tomato type of heart, but when I got down there it was more like a withered Jalapeno -- sickly grey green, laying back in a wheelchair, struggling to breath.

I got over near him and asked who did this to him? He could barely lift his arm but he pointed at me.

I asked how it happened? He sort of pointed and waved at the sky above us. Gray lumpy clouds stretched all the way across the sky. I recognized those. Brain Clouds. Blocking out all the Sunlight.

Now I try to keep some openings in there, to let God's Sunshine down to my heart. Prayer is a good thing for that.

But I do understand it is easy to get lost in the brains. I had even made an Emotional Co-processor in part of my brain -- so I could emulate the emotions I saw in those humans around us. Figured if I did not feel it, at least I could fake it.

Had to shut that stuff down, too.

You will make. But it is a Faith thing, not a Smarts thing.

miamifella

In AA meetings there is not much rehashing of the past--that sort of thing is described as living in the problem and will usually result in the greeter telling you that "AA is not therapy, so keep your troubles to yourself." Usually the meeting is a series of testimonials about "how well I am handling situations," "How well my career is going," etc since I stopped drinking.

I think that for some people this upbeat emphasis is a good thing. For other, it is better to talk about troubles and difficulties rather than success.

Any program or therapy that you can name will help some and harm others.

As others have pointed out, comparing AA to motivational programs which clearly lack success is misguided. Chemo sounds pretty unappealing when compared to ice cream diet, but is clearly the more effective treatment for cancer. Rather than evaluating programs in terms of appeal, it is better to look at them in terms of effectiveness. (Come to think of it, if Tony Robbins or Zig Ziglar started out by admitting that they were powerless over fluctuations in the economy, they might have a more realistic approach to finance.)

The AA thing about not planning or saving money seems weird to me too. But in practice these demands seem only to be made on newbees with long standing members boasting of their foresight in planning when sharing in meetings.

Given that you think that support groups tend to reinforce the negative, I am curious about how you feel about group therapy, psychotherapy, religious services, and other such groups. Is is just behavioral support groups like AA that you doubt, or do you feel that support groups focused on physical ailments are also negative?

I think that for some people AA can be harmful. Some people feel bad comparing their difficulties to the parade of successes found in every meeting. (I know it made me feel very hopeless and convinced me that I did NOT belong.) But for most, it is indeed a happy and uplifting experience. I suspect that the meetings work best for drunks who liked to drink in bars.

One size does not fit all, and your original questions assume that something works or doesn't. Maybe it would be more revealing to ask people what worked for them and what did not. One thing that I do admire about 12-step programs is the emphasis on personal experience. Abstract or general statements are discouraged and sharing of ones own personal experience is valued as a clearer guide.