Can AA can keep them sick?
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Join Date: Oct 2006
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I don't know about AA. I know that Al-Anon *meetings* often (at least where I'm at) seems to often bring up SCB - Stupid Codie Behavior - and in my experience, it's the only place where you can do that and not have people state at you like you have two heads. I imagine it's similar in AA, that someone tells a story about how they in their head rationalized a certain behavior... And instead of people in the room being shocked, they'll be nodding in recognition or even howling with laughter because they recognize it from themselves and recognize through someone else telling the story how totally nutty it is...
As for digging in the past... that's sort of the difference between psychoanalysis and newer treatment forms like DBT. Psychoanalysis claims that if you can understand WHY, then your behavior will change. I understand why you question that - I think understanding WHY is only the first phase of changing your behavior. I've spent three years in therapy and only the first... Couple of months focused on the WHY. The rest of the time has focused on the HOW DO I STOP DOING THAT? which is a much more stubborn nut to crack.
I hear a lot if frustration in your post but I think... well, I tend to agree with Anvil when it comes to Tony Robbins but I also think that...
...true recovery has to come from the inside. Hammer said in another post that he could see a shift in his posts that mirrored a shift in his thinking - when he started posting about himself instead of her I've felt like an idiot often in the years I've been in Al-Anon because so many times it's just sounded like WORDS to me. And then one day it just made sense and I understood it from the inside. Not unlike learning how to rise a bike.
So all of a sudden you GET something and then you can't un-get it. And then you can continue building on that.
It's an excruciatingly slow process if you're just looking at the goal. But when you're in the middle of it, it's an experience of growth and discovery. I can imagine that people on the outside, if I described my insights, would go "well DUH!" But I think that's where the spirituality of these programs come in. You trust that it will work even when you don't see or feel progress. And when you really understand something about yourself or your addiction, it is like a religious experience in that it does have transforming powers.
But that still leaves you with the responsibility to determine how you will act based on the new discoveries.
Sorry that got long but thank you for giving me reason to type it out.
As for digging in the past... that's sort of the difference between psychoanalysis and newer treatment forms like DBT. Psychoanalysis claims that if you can understand WHY, then your behavior will change. I understand why you question that - I think understanding WHY is only the first phase of changing your behavior. I've spent three years in therapy and only the first... Couple of months focused on the WHY. The rest of the time has focused on the HOW DO I STOP DOING THAT? which is a much more stubborn nut to crack.
I hear a lot if frustration in your post but I think... well, I tend to agree with Anvil when it comes to Tony Robbins but I also think that...
...true recovery has to come from the inside. Hammer said in another post that he could see a shift in his posts that mirrored a shift in his thinking - when he started posting about himself instead of her I've felt like an idiot often in the years I've been in Al-Anon because so many times it's just sounded like WORDS to me. And then one day it just made sense and I understood it from the inside. Not unlike learning how to rise a bike.
So all of a sudden you GET something and then you can't un-get it. And then you can continue building on that.
It's an excruciatingly slow process if you're just looking at the goal. But when you're in the middle of it, it's an experience of growth and discovery. I can imagine that people on the outside, if I described my insights, would go "well DUH!" But I think that's where the spirituality of these programs come in. You trust that it will work even when you don't see or feel progress. And when you really understand something about yourself or your addiction, it is like a religious experience in that it does have transforming powers.
But that still leaves you with the responsibility to determine how you will act based on the new discoveries.
Sorry that got long but thank you for giving me reason to type it out.
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Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The Deep South
Posts: 14,636
Originally Posted by lillamy 
And then one day it just made sense and I understood it from the inside. Not unlike learning how to rise a bike.
So all of a sudden you GET something and then you can't un-get it. And then you can continue building on that.
It's an excruciatingly slow process if you're just looking at the goal. But when you're in the middle of it, it's an experience of growth and discovery. I can imagine that people on the outside, if I described my insights, would go "well DUH!" But I think that's where the spirituality of these programs come in. You trust that it will work even when you don't see or feel progress. And when you really understand something about yourself or your addiction, it is like a religious experience in that it does have transforming powers.
So all of a sudden you GET something and then you can't un-get it. And then you can continue building on that.
It's an excruciatingly slow process if you're just looking at the goal. But when you're in the middle of it, it's an experience of growth and discovery. I can imagine that people on the outside, if I described my insights, would go "well DUH!" But I think that's where the spirituality of these programs come in. You trust that it will work even when you don't see or feel progress. And when you really understand something about yourself or your addiction, it is like a religious experience in that it does have transforming powers.
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Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Posts: 104
recovery
For me, it's not the philosophy but being and talking with others which are like you.
I resisted but I love my groups and feel connected. My fourth step took forever.
Take what you need. All your journey.
Good luck
gigi
I resisted but I love my groups and feel connected. My fourth step took forever.
Take what you need. All your journey.
Good luck
gigi
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Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 16,246
Dear Crazed---I think it is a good thing to ask any question if you want to learn or to understand anything better.
Personally, I am glad that you asked this question---look at what good discussion has come from it---some interesting and informative perspectives. There is always something new that can be learned. Many people will read this thread who have the same questions and curiosity---and will come away with information or food for their own thought.
I certainly am no authority on AA, but I have dealt with many, many alcoholics and I have seen many, many alcoholics in long-term recovery. I know, empirically, that AA can and does help people to regain (or realize) a meaningful and rewarding existence after having been in the pits of despair and self-destruction. I'd say that is pretty good.
I do think that there are a lot of inaccurate assumptions about AA in the general population. It is very discouraging to hear those who are suffering from alcoholism spout these false assumptions as their rationalizations for not giving AA a fair try. (I know that it is their desire to not give up drinking). "I am not going to join a cult"; "I'm not religious"; "Those people make me want to drink more", etc......
Thus, I am glad when I see any fair discussion as to the actual nature of AA.
Crazed, I am glad that you ask questions. I am also very glad to hear that your girlfriend is sober (Ex or not)!
And, this is my 2 cents.
dandylion
Personally, I am glad that you asked this question---look at what good discussion has come from it---some interesting and informative perspectives. There is always something new that can be learned. Many people will read this thread who have the same questions and curiosity---and will come away with information or food for their own thought.
I certainly am no authority on AA, but I have dealt with many, many alcoholics and I have seen many, many alcoholics in long-term recovery. I know, empirically, that AA can and does help people to regain (or realize) a meaningful and rewarding existence after having been in the pits of despair and self-destruction. I'd say that is pretty good.
I do think that there are a lot of inaccurate assumptions about AA in the general population. It is very discouraging to hear those who are suffering from alcoholism spout these false assumptions as their rationalizations for not giving AA a fair try. (I know that it is their desire to not give up drinking). "I am not going to join a cult"; "I'm not religious"; "Those people make me want to drink more", etc......
Thus, I am glad when I see any fair discussion as to the actual nature of AA.
Crazed, I am glad that you ask questions. I am also very glad to hear that your girlfriend is sober (Ex or not)!
And, this is my 2 cents.
dandylion
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Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: NE Wisconsin USA
Posts: 6,223
Hey crazed If she is earnestly working through the 12 steps of AA then she needs to have help from an AA sponsor.
The 4th step is very important.
I would suggest you do your own 4th and 5th step in Alanon.
I know it's odd for you to do the steps....
Since you have been affected with the illness of alcoholism/addiction I would take a quick look why you might be attracted to an alcoholic or addict....
You know if she gets clean and you get comfortable under your skin you and her might have a decent relationship
The 4th step is very important.
I would suggest you do your own 4th and 5th step in Alanon.
I know it's odd for you to do the steps....
Since you have been affected with the illness of alcoholism/addiction I would take a quick look why you might be attracted to an alcoholic or addict....
You know if she gets clean and you get comfortable under your skin you and her might have a decent relationship
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 321
I say keep it simple. I'm sure nothing I'm about to say will be new to this thread, but you never know. I won't know what I type until it's all out, just the type of person I am. I get an idea and run with it..
In keeping it simple, I look at the results of the programs which use the 12 steps as a basis. For the most part, people don't stay. Just being honest. There is a lot of turnover in 12 step meetings. But then I have to look at the reasons why. Many people go to AA or NA or any other "a" meetings because they were sent there. Friends, family, courts etc. I've seen many walk through the door in my two years in the program, and very few have stayed. A few have come back, but not all. Many other people come to the program because they want help. And that is all and good, but the 12 steps are not designed to create meetings where people go to get help and then go on their merry way. It just doesn't work like that.
There are several other reasons, but I'll focus on those two. I came into the program the 1st time for the 2nd reason. I wanted help. I have been a drug addict and alcoholic since before I was a teenager and life finally got bad enough for me to want to find another way out. So I went to a meeting, as I had been introduced to the program through reason 1, a friend. When I started going to meetings after that, I was going to be fixed. I wanted to attain some immediate results for just going, because going is an action and I was told I had to take action. Needless to say, I went back to my old ways before long. I was there for the right reason, I had hit bottom, but I was looking for the wrong thing. I stayed the same person.
Since I actually started working the 12 steps in my life I have learned a bit and changed a bit. The change part was not of my doing, though it was a product of my actions. Kinda like a voluntary brainwashing, if you will. I am not the same person I was when I walked in that 1st meeting all on my own in 2011.
My opinion and experience shows that going to any 12 step meeting can keep you as sick as you would be if you were in a bar. The meetings in and of themselves are not a cure all, nor does that do anything whatsoever to treat alcoholism or addiction. They are a means to attain information, to feel less unique, special and lonely in this world. And those who do service in the meeting and for the fellowship involved with the meeting get gifts that go beyond what any human can provide. Sobriety. Those who leave the meeting and move into action get the same. Sobriety.
I am not sitting here typing this with the little time I have because I go to meetings, or because I can tell you what the steps are, or because I know what is on pages 86-88 of the BB. I am sitting here with a little time because I have learned how to apply the 12 steps in my daily life and try to live on a spiritual basis.
Oh, and powerless is only mentioned once in the first 164 pages of the BB, that's in the 1st step. The BB is all about finding a power by which I can live, for my own power was never enough to keep me from picking up one more time, or lying one more time, or sleeping for days in a depressed stupor one more time. The program of AA starts with having no power, but that isn't what it's all about by any means.
Anything stated above that sounds like an opinion.... is an opinion. Didn't say what I said so someone can quote it and pick it apart and tell me how wrong I am or anything like that. Just hoping that my 2 cents helps the OP and anyone else is whatever way.
In keeping it simple, I look at the results of the programs which use the 12 steps as a basis. For the most part, people don't stay. Just being honest. There is a lot of turnover in 12 step meetings. But then I have to look at the reasons why. Many people go to AA or NA or any other "a" meetings because they were sent there. Friends, family, courts etc. I've seen many walk through the door in my two years in the program, and very few have stayed. A few have come back, but not all. Many other people come to the program because they want help. And that is all and good, but the 12 steps are not designed to create meetings where people go to get help and then go on their merry way. It just doesn't work like that.
There are several other reasons, but I'll focus on those two. I came into the program the 1st time for the 2nd reason. I wanted help. I have been a drug addict and alcoholic since before I was a teenager and life finally got bad enough for me to want to find another way out. So I went to a meeting, as I had been introduced to the program through reason 1, a friend. When I started going to meetings after that, I was going to be fixed. I wanted to attain some immediate results for just going, because going is an action and I was told I had to take action. Needless to say, I went back to my old ways before long. I was there for the right reason, I had hit bottom, but I was looking for the wrong thing. I stayed the same person.
Since I actually started working the 12 steps in my life I have learned a bit and changed a bit. The change part was not of my doing, though it was a product of my actions. Kinda like a voluntary brainwashing, if you will. I am not the same person I was when I walked in that 1st meeting all on my own in 2011.
My opinion and experience shows that going to any 12 step meeting can keep you as sick as you would be if you were in a bar. The meetings in and of themselves are not a cure all, nor does that do anything whatsoever to treat alcoholism or addiction. They are a means to attain information, to feel less unique, special and lonely in this world. And those who do service in the meeting and for the fellowship involved with the meeting get gifts that go beyond what any human can provide. Sobriety. Those who leave the meeting and move into action get the same. Sobriety.
I am not sitting here typing this with the little time I have because I go to meetings, or because I can tell you what the steps are, or because I know what is on pages 86-88 of the BB. I am sitting here with a little time because I have learned how to apply the 12 steps in my daily life and try to live on a spiritual basis.
Oh, and powerless is only mentioned once in the first 164 pages of the BB, that's in the 1st step. The BB is all about finding a power by which I can live, for my own power was never enough to keep me from picking up one more time, or lying one more time, or sleeping for days in a depressed stupor one more time. The program of AA starts with having no power, but that isn't what it's all about by any means.
Anything stated above that sounds like an opinion.... is an opinion. Didn't say what I said so someone can quote it and pick it apart and tell me how wrong I am or anything like that. Just hoping that my 2 cents helps the OP and anyone else is whatever way.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Chicago
Posts: 577
The steps help to identify things in ourselves that are repeatedly causing us problems. First, the obvious substance abuse, then the "character defects" that will drive us back to use if we don't lose or at least try to soften them. Step 4 is crucial in identifying these defects once we're clean for a while. It can be worked once, or repeatedly...there is no right way.
I needed to change myself because the world didn't work the way I wanted it to. Working the steps effects that change.
I identify in meetings as an alcoholic so that I don't forget that it will beat my a$$ again if I let it. And as a means of ego deflation so I don't again start thinking I can make the world spin my way.
I needed to change myself because the world didn't work the way I wanted it to. Working the steps effects that change.
I identify in meetings as an alcoholic so that I don't forget that it will beat my a$$ again if I let it. And as a means of ego deflation so I don't again start thinking I can make the world spin my way.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,243
I once disparaged AA because I didn't understand it either and there is a lot of disinformation about "how it works". My XA hated it and he had all the typical excuses and criticisms that active alcoholics parrot when they are drinking!
However, when my XA had periods of recovery (authentic recovery with personal growth and ability to develop meaningful relationships with loved ones, hold a job and perform it well, support himself financially and keep himself out of handcuffs and hospital beds) it was ALWAYS when living an AA inspired lifestyle.
Meeting attendance is not the heart of AA but in life you become who you surround yourself with and that goes for all of us. You can flock with eagles or peck around with the chickens and both Zig Zigler and Tony Robbins would agree with that premise.
The heart of AA is the steps and they are universal and useful to all... and I believe that we are all addicted to something! While alcoholism doesn't just run in my family it flows through it like Niagara Falls I somehow escaped the substance abuse addiction but instead have other deep issues from the family disease. Severe codependency, workaholism, inability to trust and develop deep relationships with others, complete loss of a fear or flight reflex (can be dangerous in my job) as well as anger issues are my legacy and cross from a childhood of alcoholism and abuse.
Years of therapy and minoring in psychology kept me functioning but it was AA (open meetings with the XA) that got me on the path to true recovery, peace and serenity.
The XA didn't make it (loves the bottle and gambling too much to give it up even thought he is PERFECTLY able to live sober through AA!)... life is a series of choices and he has made that choice... his first love is booze. period.
Sounds like your XAGF is choosing life... choosing recovery and that is wonderful and I hope she stays on the path for her sake.
My suggestion for you is to check it out first hand... attend some open AA meetings (not all are created equal and have different "cultures" so try a few) and I strongly recommend attending some alanon meetings too... it will be interesting from a scientific position as well as a personal.
It's no accident when we fall in love with severely broken people... the magnets are deep within us and we are attracted for a reason. My magnet for alcoholics is still there but I am so much wiser, so much stronger and completely empowered to understand my psyche to avoid them like the plague!!!
And that my friend is what AA and Alanon is all about... life...figuring out who we are and what we believe to be true, to have meaning and purpose and to live a life that brings us joy and peace!
It works if you work it and the planet would be a better place if everyone did the steps!
However, when my XA had periods of recovery (authentic recovery with personal growth and ability to develop meaningful relationships with loved ones, hold a job and perform it well, support himself financially and keep himself out of handcuffs and hospital beds) it was ALWAYS when living an AA inspired lifestyle.
Meeting attendance is not the heart of AA but in life you become who you surround yourself with and that goes for all of us. You can flock with eagles or peck around with the chickens and both Zig Zigler and Tony Robbins would agree with that premise.
The heart of AA is the steps and they are universal and useful to all... and I believe that we are all addicted to something! While alcoholism doesn't just run in my family it flows through it like Niagara Falls I somehow escaped the substance abuse addiction but instead have other deep issues from the family disease. Severe codependency, workaholism, inability to trust and develop deep relationships with others, complete loss of a fear or flight reflex (can be dangerous in my job) as well as anger issues are my legacy and cross from a childhood of alcoholism and abuse.
Years of therapy and minoring in psychology kept me functioning but it was AA (open meetings with the XA) that got me on the path to true recovery, peace and serenity.
The XA didn't make it (loves the bottle and gambling too much to give it up even thought he is PERFECTLY able to live sober through AA!)... life is a series of choices and he has made that choice... his first love is booze. period.
Sounds like your XAGF is choosing life... choosing recovery and that is wonderful and I hope she stays on the path for her sake.
My suggestion for you is to check it out first hand... attend some open AA meetings (not all are created equal and have different "cultures" so try a few) and I strongly recommend attending some alanon meetings too... it will be interesting from a scientific position as well as a personal.
It's no accident when we fall in love with severely broken people... the magnets are deep within us and we are attracted for a reason. My magnet for alcoholics is still there but I am so much wiser, so much stronger and completely empowered to understand my psyche to avoid them like the plague!!!
And that my friend is what AA and Alanon is all about... life...figuring out who we are and what we believe to be true, to have meaning and purpose and to live a life that brings us joy and peace!
It works if you work it and the planet would be a better place if everyone did the steps!
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Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: FL
Posts: 76
Originally Posted by Hopeworks
I once disparaged AA because I didn't understand it either and there is a lot of disinformation about "how it works". My XA hated it and he had all the typical excuses and criticisms that active alcoholics parrot when they are drinking!
However, when my XA had periods of recovery (authentic recovery with personal growth and ability to develop meaningful relationships with loved ones, hold a job and perform it well, support himself financially and keep himself out of handcuffs and hospital beds) it was ALWAYS when living an AA inspired lifestyle.
However, when my XA had periods of recovery (authentic recovery with personal growth and ability to develop meaningful relationships with loved ones, hold a job and perform it well, support himself financially and keep himself out of handcuffs and hospital beds) it was ALWAYS when living an AA inspired lifestyle.
This time around, his recovery is much much different. He's doing his fourth step and has been working on it the entire month since his disastrous bender. He's stepped up - at work, at home, in his life. For him, at the first meeting he attended, on the Monday after his weekend where he'd been probably purging some alcohol poisoning from his system, someone at the meeting said "If all you change is your drinking, the same man will go back out and drink again." And that was his choir of angels/lightbulb/clue by four moment where it all suddenly made sense to him. And why the steps and the messages of AA are worded the way they are.
I don't think it's about powerlessness at all. It's freeing, even with my own experience, to know I CANNOT change someone else. I can only change how I am and how I react. And then I alone am responsible for my feelings, my reactions, my actions. No one else.
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 1,295
Crazed, seems to me you are talking the difference of what works for you, or me, and what works for someone else who can't put down the drink.
We can't wrap our head around it. I so get that.
When I was drinking too much, I realized I was drinking too much. Stop drinking for awhile, and never drink that much again.
Problem solved. In otherwords, alcoholism was not my problem. My problem was other things.
I do understand what you are saying. It works the same for those who choose al-anon, and those who it doesn't work for them, like me.
For me, getting out to something else, something that doesn't have anything to do even remotely with alcohol, works much better, be it a motivational class, a hobby, anything that removes me from the "nonsense" of alcoholism. To not have it be a focus in the back of my mind is far more healing for me then to have it there, in my head, in an al-anon setting. For me, it feels like a big black cloud hanging over the head of the meetings. That's for me, others differ. It doesn't feel uplifting and motivational, I instead feel depressed by going to meetings.
Yet SR does work for me, as long as I stick to the threads that talk psychology, and don't ring the AA bell too much.
So I think the question is what works for you? You don't appear to like the al-anon approach. You appear to like doing something else that feels uplifting. Yes, do what works for you!
And I can see where you might think the same would be true for some drinkers. I think that is true. Many people who turn away from drinking too much do so without AA, in fact, studies state most.
They don't work the program because they reject that angle of recovery, or they tried it before and didn't succeed with that method.
I think with your exgf, it's her choice which approach to use, and since she's chosen AA as her approach at this time, what else can you do but be supportive?
If she could approach the whole thing from the "drinking too much is nonsense" angle, she would have done so already.
On the question of whether AA could keep her sick...seems only she can keep herself sick. Remember who has the power here, it's her. If she stumbles and falls and doesn't recover, it's not the fault of AA. From what I've read, those that do recover in AA, were ready to recover no matter what program they embraced. They were simply ready.
We can't wrap our head around it. I so get that.
When I was drinking too much, I realized I was drinking too much. Stop drinking for awhile, and never drink that much again.
Problem solved. In otherwords, alcoholism was not my problem. My problem was other things.
I do understand what you are saying. It works the same for those who choose al-anon, and those who it doesn't work for them, like me.
For me, getting out to something else, something that doesn't have anything to do even remotely with alcohol, works much better, be it a motivational class, a hobby, anything that removes me from the "nonsense" of alcoholism. To not have it be a focus in the back of my mind is far more healing for me then to have it there, in my head, in an al-anon setting. For me, it feels like a big black cloud hanging over the head of the meetings. That's for me, others differ. It doesn't feel uplifting and motivational, I instead feel depressed by going to meetings.
Yet SR does work for me, as long as I stick to the threads that talk psychology, and don't ring the AA bell too much.
So I think the question is what works for you? You don't appear to like the al-anon approach. You appear to like doing something else that feels uplifting. Yes, do what works for you!
And I can see where you might think the same would be true for some drinkers. I think that is true. Many people who turn away from drinking too much do so without AA, in fact, studies state most.
They don't work the program because they reject that angle of recovery, or they tried it before and didn't succeed with that method.
I think with your exgf, it's her choice which approach to use, and since she's chosen AA as her approach at this time, what else can you do but be supportive?
If she could approach the whole thing from the "drinking too much is nonsense" angle, she would have done so already.
On the question of whether AA could keep her sick...seems only she can keep herself sick. Remember who has the power here, it's her. If she stumbles and falls and doesn't recover, it's not the fault of AA. From what I've read, those that do recover in AA, were ready to recover no matter what program they embraced. They were simply ready.
Peace, Love, Sobriety
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Wilmington, DE
Posts: 1,549
Originally Posted by Dee74
I think drinking and not working on my recovery keeps me sick - and I say that as a non AA member.
I did get a lot out of the Big Book tho - I recommend you read it to get some idea of what AA is about
D
I did get a lot out of the Big Book tho - I recommend you read it to get some idea of what AA is about
D
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