CAgirl9

Tuffgirl - thanks - I do need to decide what I can live with regarding RAH. Just to clarify - I'm not wondering what he's thinking/feeling. I'm just trying to look at the situation realistically. He told me he's gone through the steps and I haven't seem any real change in behavior other than no drinking.

I agree wholeheartedly with with jmartin just posted. These are a few statements that stood out for me.
It seems I need to be able to evaluate my situation so I can make a decision that is best for ME and DD. I'm not judging RAH -I hope it hasn't come across like that.
I have been trying to focus on what Tuffgirl said - figure out what I need, what,must have.
It feels like a lot of pressure becuase my gut keeps telling divorce is inevitable and it's a lot of pressure because it will not just affect me but DD14. I know I don't need to make a decision right now. I know more will be revealed and I'm just trying to trust in God.

choublak

At the risk of opening up another can of worms, there are other ways to find sobriety besides working the steps. It's really about living a healthy, sober lifestyle. The OP's husband who said that he didn't think he needed AA meetings anymore because "they're for people with cravings" doesn't seem to understand that alcoholism doesn't work that way. An A doesn't necessarily have to have cravings all the time.

In terms of "amends", I honestly could care less. Maybe it's because I don't even know what an "amend" is supposed to look like. Personally I'd gotten so annoyed with my RABF I was like, "I don't care what you do, just don't come around me drunk out of your skull and expect me to spend any time with you." One thing he did tell me back when he was still drinking was, "it's not you or anybody else, that's making me drink...it's a chemical thing" which made me realize that most of the addiction/recovery "stuff" is mostly going on inside the person's head. He has been sober for about a year (a rough estimate) and we don't discuss recovery - his, mine, or anybody else's. There's no real need to. I don't know his "regimen" but it's really not for me to know. I know that, for me at least, knowing someone else's recovery business is equivalent to trying to get inside that person's head. I have no desire to get inside anyone's head. Caution, I'm not accusing anyone else of doing that so nobody jump on here and try to get defensive about it. I'm only speaking for myself.

AnvilheadII

I know the steps, and know what is supposed to happen.

do you? do you know this thru empirical knowledge or theory? cuz i wasn't aware HOW an individual recovers was that predictable, or that there was a specific timetable and check off list to be adhered to. that sounds suspiciously like expectations....

i don't think ANYONE can really get it unless they themselves have worked the steps. be it addict, alcoholic, codependent - whatever 12 step program applies. take a gander down at the 12 steps for F&F below this forum. it was created in 2010 - notice how many threads there are from Step 5 onward. 2 and a couple 3's. in fact for Steps 8 and 9 there are a TOTAL of 13 VIEWS. an entire section devoted to working the steps for the friends, family and loved ones and yet how many have taken the time to really try to grasp what the program is about, it's intentions and hopeful outcomes?

how many of US have dug deeply and taken our own inventory, detailed our own shortcomings, named our defects of character? how many of us became humble enough to TELL those same things, those secrets that were never to see the light of day again, to another human being. how many of us became willing to have those same defects removed so that WE could become of use for the greater good? how many have made that list of everyone we have harmed and became willing to make amends, except when to do so would injure them or others? or continue to monitor our own thoughts and actions, and when we mess up, promptly admit it? or seek better contact with the Higher Power of our understanding...not that HE will listen to US better, but that WE may be of service to others, and then set about carrying the message of hope and healing to others, by sharing our own experience, and by having had our own spiritual awakening - carrying the message that recovery IS possible, and being a living example of that recovery???

the BEST and most thorough description of the 12 steps as they were originally intended and written will be found in the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous - How it Works, Into Action and Working with Others. should be noted that the Promises are not mentioned until AFTER Step 9.

it's said so often here - if s/he would JUST quit drinking, all would well. or conditions are set up, you must quit drinking and you must be working a program, without truly grasping what that means and what a daunting undertaking that is!!! we say go to meetings. so then they go, and they go alot, and we say, you're never home! or you are spending all your time with your sponsor or those other AA people.

or you ARE home but you aren't doing anything. except not drinking. wait. isn't that what you wanted? but now that they aren't drinking but aren't "working the program" to your satisfaction, they are just Dry Drunks and White Knuckling?? it seems NOTHING is good enough.


looping this back around....i think the Lord's Prayer holds the key...

And forgive us our trespasses,
As we forgive them that trespass against us.

as we sit there can we honestly say that there is no one in the world to whom WE owe amends? is our own side of the street THAT spiffy clean? if we put as much into Trusting God (HP), Cleaning House and Being of Service to Others as we insist THEY do, perhaps that "need" for the Amends of Our Own Understanding will fade just a little in importance.

i am NOT defending any specific individual, referenced herein or elsewhere, only speaking from what i've experienced and witnessed, tons of meetings, tons of members, tons of stories, learning to discern Talking the Talk from Walking the Walk.

choublak

But why is he telling you this? What's the point of him telling you that he's gone through the steps?

I'm thinking maybe he read through the steps and that's his idea of "going through the steps".

LaughAway

I feel like my AH's way of compromising/scarifying/making amends was to become sober. Fantastic woohoo glad he did that...But what about the other issues that arise in our relationship? Like, his total disregard to sharing financial responsibility. Yes, he pays 50% of the monthly bills including rent. But rarely pays for any groceries, pet food, toiletries, or laundry detergent (and does about 10% of the household work). He sleeps A LOT. But hey, as long as he's sober that should be good enough. I think not.

Dublin

This is clearly a huge issue for so many people and it is great to read so many opinions and stories. For the first time I have to admit to myself that I expect my RA to work to a higher standard than I demand of myself because I see my self as the 'victim'. I have to admit now reading this that while I attend meetings and read books I've been waiting for him to work the steps and make amends before I would because he needs them more than me and I won't unless he does first. Thank you all for this thread and from today I am going to stop measuring his recovery and conducting mine based on where he is at. I am going to work the steps and honestly face the harm I have caused. I am glad my RA is working a programme and I admire his progress and from today I am going to try to not have my recovery dependent on his progress I honestly didn't realise I was doing that until I read all that is here. I will be very glad if he decides to make amends and if I am no longer blamed but I won't let a lack of those things hold me back from finding my own peace. Thanks all.

CAgirl9

Choublak - I'm not sure why he told me this. I simply asked if he had gone to his meeting before he went dirt bike riding. Kind of like what did you do today...? He usually attends meetings Sat and Sunday am's. I wasn't trying to check up on him, just asking about his day. Hope that's okay to ask how his meeting went? I'm trying to show care/concern but don't wan't it to seem like I"m checking up on him.
Anyway, now that I think about the conversation it seems he was trying to defend why he doesn't need to go to meetings. I did not ask him why he doesn't feel the need to go to meetings.
I do know I want to have a relationship with my spouse that has intimate and open communication. I don't have that right now and not sure if I will be able to have it with current RAH.

jmartin

Whoa, hold on.

I would never imply I know everything (or even anything) about the steps, that there is any timetable, or what specifically is supposed to happen, and I think I was quite clear in my post about this. Are you deliberately misunderstanding me? Anyone who has read them sees that the steps specifically require acknowledging our behavior and making amends to those we have wronged.

Are you suggesting that all this can be done without the awareness of those involved? Is it sufficient for me to make all of my amends in my own mind? By the same token, is it wrong of me to notice that my AW does not seem to be there yet? I am just noting that I am not seeing any significant change in behavior, including but not limited to something I might recognize as simple acknowledgment or amends, let alone sobriety!

You say there is no timetable, and while that is of course true for the alcoholic, all of us have limits to our patience and what we are willing to endure. I think allowing someone to work their program for ten years is not setting the bar too high - we can quibble about whether I have enabled, been codependent, on and on if we want. She might need twenty years, or even thirty - I have no idea, all I can do is make my own decisions about what I need to do today for myself.

After ten years, I think I am allowed to notice that behavior is not materially different, despite her protestations that she is in AA and working her steps. If after, this amount of time, she claims to have worked the steps, but has made no attempts that I can discern to acknowledge or make amends to me or her family, it certainly is my right to decide if I am okay with that, isn't it?

AnvilheadII

YES jmartin, you absolutely retain the right (and always have!) to decide if what your are getting from your wife is enough to merit staying longer. i'm sorry if you took it that i implied otherwise. program or not, YOU have to live with her! you've had ten years now to assess if what she deems sobriety/recovery/no longer drinking is enough of a satisfactory change FOR YOU. no one ever said you had to accept the unacceptable.

LexieCat

There are really two separate issues going on here. One is, has the alcoholic "worked the Steps," and, further, has s/he worked them the "right way." That, it seems to me, is nobody's business but the alcoholic's. It IS a personal journey that only the alcoholic, God, and a sponsor or maybe a couple of other trusted fellow recovering alcoholics are in any position to judge.

Many sponsors urge that certain amends not be made until the time is right. Maybe the alcoholic has not yet become "willing" to make the amends. Maybe he or she hasn't yet fully comprehended that harm was done, or exactly what that harm was, or the depth of it. There's also the issue that amends should not be made when they might do more harm than good. An empty-sounding or insincere "apology" could hurt another person more than waiting until the alcoholic is really ready to take full responsibility for what he or she did, and to take some action to try to make it right. Many people also do the Steps over, to deal with issues that they may not have recognized or might not have been ready to address before.

Moreover, some people do recover without completely following the 12-Step program (or not using it at all). Such a person might "mend his or her ways" without doing a formal "amends" as described in Step 9.

The separate issue is what the partner (or parent or other person affected by alcoholism) needs. And those needs are THAT person's issues. You can communicate what those needs are, including your need for an apology or to put something right that was done to harm you during the time the alcoholic was drinking. And maybe you will get it, maybe you won't. That isn't exactly the same thing as an amends, though in some cases it might amount to the same thing. The point is, you don't get the right to judge someone else's program based on whether you have gotten the action you want. You CAN, however, decide that you cannot continue the relationship without the action, or let go of the issue so it isn't the basis for a resentment--which is likely to hurt you even more than the original wrong did.

Making an amends is really about the alcoholic's WILLINGNESS to step up and do the right thing, on his or her own. It is intended to benefit both parties, but it can be effective for the alcoholic even if the intended recipient rejects the gesture. But it doesn't affect the right of the injured party to take whatever action is needed to address his or her own needs.

wicked

I am sorry jmartin. I was sharing my experience about having a conversation like yours with my ex husband. maybe more than one conversation.

I understood you to mean in your first post that she uses this (excuse) as a reason she does not tell you important things about your life together, things that would affect you.
I used to do the same thing when I was drinking. I would say, "oh, i didn't tell you we have orders to go to Germany?" I am sure i did, yeah I did. what? maybe I just had the conversation in my head (I did a lot of drunk ruminating ) and I just THOUGHT I told you.

I was agreeing about being in that position, both as an alcoholic and as a codependent. (my ex continued to drink after rehab, he said i was the one with the problem)

I should have chosen my pronouns more carefully. We, I was talking about we as a group of friends and family.

I did not mean that giving credence was a bad thing to do, because I have done it. I was not judging you for expecting to hear important information from your wife. I was identifying and commiserating and missed the mark completely.

So, I hope that I will get some clarity for myself. I am looking.


Beth

dandylion

Thanx, Lexi. You answered my question.

Judging from the very passionate posts from so many--emotions run very high on this issue. Speaking for myself--and perhaps others like myself--the wounding has been so deep that mere words seem inadequate to give full description. It is a savage disease.


In gratitude,
dandylion

wicked

Lexie, you explained it so well.

and thank you too AnvilheadII. (say it in your head hehehehehe)

Brilliant.