CAgirl9

I'm not really sure what title to use. I'm really in disbelief. RAH (15 months no drinking) and I actually sat down to eat dinner together tonight. That in itself was a big deal. He's been pretty detached - doesn't really speak to me, acknowledge me, etc.
So we were eatting dinner and starting to talk about his dirt bike riding today. I asked if he went to his AA meeting this am and he said he didn't. He went on to tell me he doesn't really need to go to meetings because its for people who really crave alcohol and he doesn't. Said he's been through the Steps twice and I was thinking "WHAT? You've been through the steps not just once but twice and I haven't received an apology/amends for all the crap/verbal abuse/name calling, etc. I have received all these years"
I didn't say a word - I held my tongue.
My therapist told me it can take RAH 4-5 years to get through recovery if you are really working the steps.
It just seems to me he's still in denial.
I was thinking when he got to making amends I would hear some apologies, etc. and I haven't heard anything close to that from him.
I know I need to focus on me and I'm trying not to let this affect me too much but I'm just
Thanks!

LexieCat

A lot of people think if they've gone to Step meetings they've "worked the Steps."

I don't want to be a pessimist, but I see more drinking in his future.

CAgirl9

Thanks Lexie - my therapist thinks he's going to relapse. I need to prepare myself for that and decide what my boundary is when that happens.

This is such a terrible disease. It's sad to think about what could have been - we used to be a great couple, cooked together and had lots of fun. My DD doesn't remember any of those times- she was too small. I wish she had those memories but I keep trying to do fun things with her so we have good memories together.

Thanks for your input!

AnvilheadII

it could be that his "amends" to you have been 15 months of sobriety. it could be him being present at the dinner table tonite. amends are not simply saying the words "I'm Sorry" - they are a change in attitude and action. I am not saying he has actually ever worked Step 9, but what I am saying is that it's futile for you to sit and wait for an apology as YOU think it should be.

CAgirl9

AnvilheadII - thanks for the different perspective! I"m not sure what amends look like - I was guessing that they may be an apology. A change in attitude would be great but RAH's attitude has not improved. If anything he's become a little more short tempered. I've just given him some space.

Is it okay to ask RAH if he thinks he's made amends to me?

Hopeworks

Expecting too much from an A is usually a sure letdown but amends aa style is about actual restoritution as well as genuine remorse/acknowledgment of pain and harm caused. Going through the motions or no one noticing change is a bad sign... An about face and noticeable change in attitude and action and amends that actually are recognizable as amends is a better sign of authentic recovery and step work. Inmo

AnvilheadII

it's OK to ask whatever you want....however you have to ask what is it REALLY you are asking, what ANSWER are you hoping to hear and can you DEAL with a response that is not what you want to hear???

to me, maybe cuz I've done the steps, multiple times, to me it's a VERY personal journey and very much like "the confessional" from my catholic days...a protected space in which only ONE person was allowed...my sponsor. the steps were in large part between me, sponsor bob and God (HP/Universe). I did not feel the need to explain or defend HOW I worked and then lived the steps. it wasn't up for discussion. how I approached life would be the reflection of how I approached the steps.

CAgirl9

Hopeworks - thanks - that is kind of what I was thinking amends would be about.

wicked

I think if you continue to work on you, and focus on you then you will not need to ask this question.
That has just been my experience.

Based on what you have said he has no idea what working the steps is about.
Even if he had done a ninth step, it might not have included you this time.

It is so hard to explain how the amends work, and it is not really walking up to you and saying "I am sorry for what I did while drinking."
He has to know deep down how specifically his actions (what he did) affected you in order to make a proper amends.

And this is just my experience of working my program.

Plus, do you want an apology or amends that he does not mean? Do you have enough of those?
Wait and more shall be revealed. Waiting for him to do something is not working for you right now is it?

Someone who has done the 12 steps (twice yet!) knows that the statement about craving is untrue.

Step number 1. We are powerless. Our lives had become unmanageable.

I am not sure he has step one down yet.

Yeah, I am with Lexie. He is already talking drunk. Not too far from being drunk.

Beth

wicked

Sorry,

Unless he is one of "we" he is not getting it cagirl.
that is what I am trying to say.

Beth

jmartin

This sounds very familiar. My AW has been going to AA for ten years or so, and has hardly made any apologies other than when one seemed like the next logical thing in a conversation, like when I say, I was disappointed that we had to cancel those plans because of your relapse. Oh. Sorry, I know you wanted to go.

Not once has she ever initiated a conversation with the subject being her drinking, how it has affected me and us, and how sorry she is for her behavior - I.e. in a way that I find convincing that she truly gets it. To be fair, I don't know what it would mean to make amends as implied by the steps, but I certainly do not feel that any have been made to me.

I believe she is so inwardly focused that this does not seem very important to her. Her feelings of remorse are there, THAT is what counts, there is no need to actually articulate them to me. She has even told me several times that she doesn't think her relapsing is "all that bad."

She also has a way (she says) of planning conversations in her head, then slipping into some sort of deluded belief that the she actually had that conversation with me, even though it only took place in her mind. A little too convenient, but what do I do with that?

CAgirl9

Wicked/Beth - thank you so much - I understand what you are saying. I certainly do not want an apology that is not heartfelt. I attend Al Anon so I know the steps and knew I figured I would be on RAH amends list. I guess I was waiting but didn't really have a specific time frame in mind - just knew it was sometime in the future.

I was just so shocked when he told me he's done the steps twice. First of all, he's only been going to AA for 15 months. I'm not sure what the average time it takes to go through the steps but that seems pretty quick to me - especially this early in his "recovery."

There have been too many signs that he really is not working a program. I think I was hoping for the best but it is very clear to me now that relapse is highly likely. I need to prepare for my mind for that - really need to focus on me and taking care myself and DD.

Thanks for the comment on cravings- that's helpful for me to understand.

I'm really trying to get out of God's way (my HP) and trust in Him.

Thanks for all the feedback/support!!

wicked

<nodding>
I certainly don't know a time either. LOL I don't even have an average time for me!
The first time, took a long time. But it was not a complete excavation of my life.
I was not ready for that.
The second time, I spent a long time on 4 and 5.
Now, I am looking at the codependent side of me. Well, the part of me that responds co-dependently.
Because it is about my response to life.
I have to say that once I open up to learning, the message is coming thru loud and clear.

Time for some detachment reading.
Back to the work on me.

Beth

wicked

1. We admitted we were powerless over our addiction, our lives can be unmanageable.

The fact you that give even this small amount of credence, do you see that you are powerless? The idea that she should be given some sort of "credit" for mistaking a real conversation with you versus the one she has in her drunken head.

You have described in exquisite detail exactly things I thought and said to my ex husband. He has told me many times "I know you think this, or I know you think that"
We have become mindreaders and we start to think we know what the other person is saying to themselves and when.

I am so powerless, and unmanageable. (other peoples thoughts)

Beth

dandylion

Dear AnvilHead11---Can you please clarify for me??----What/Who is the amends for---the alcoholic or for the victim?

From your explanation, it sounds like it is ALL about making the alcoholic feel better and the victim is just sort of like a player on the stage.

Is the victim out-of-line in desiring to hear that the abuser/alcoholic has regret or remorse for cruel or abusive acts. I guess I just can't wrap my head around your statements that seem to say---the way of amends must be in the style that satisfy the alcoholic but that the desires of the victim are insignificant.

I should clarify that in my case I am the victim--so you might see where I have my dog in the fight.

I REALLY DO understand what the recipients of abuse from their own loved ones mean when they speak about wanting to hear that the alcoholic is sorry for what they have done. It seems that many have the opinion that the alcoholic getting sober for themselves is good enough and that how they have treated others should be "forgotten" by the victims as soon as the bottle is gone.

My heart and head just cant come to peace with this concept. I've tried, but, I just can't.

sincerely, dandylion

dandylion

I APOLOGIZE TO CaGirl FOR HIJACKING HER THREAD--BUT, I DO FEEL THAT THE ISSUE OF WANTING AMENDS IS ONE OF HER ISSUES ALSO--SO MAYBE THIS SOMEWHAT STILL APPLIES

THANKS ALL, DANDYLION

wicked

I was never of the opinion that getting sober was good enough for me.
dandylion, i am separating alcoholism from domestic violence, because that is what I thought of when you said victims.

I certainly cannot speak for anvilhead, but I have never ever gotten the idea that anvilhead thought getting sober was "good enough".

I am a recovering alcoholic and an adult child of an alcoholic and the ex spouse of an alcoholic/addict.

I did apologize out loud to my family, more than once. But they had to wait to see me do the work of the program. The results of working that program kept me in my childrens liives and from then on I was there for them as a mother should.

I never received any kind of apology from my late father. I was not expecting one. He drank away anything that means something to a "normal" person. He used to scare and humiliate all 4 of us when we were young. No apology from him.
Oh yeah, this prince took us on a date with one of his women while my mom was in the hospital.

I never received an apology from my ex husband either. He was told to do so, so he did. He has no idea how he hurt me by being unfaithful and sexually aggressive to me.
He thinks there is nothing wrong with telling me he will leave me if I do not have sex with him. I was so sick I gave in.

If either one of these men apologized to me, it would mean nothing. They would not be able to man up to what they did and take responsibility for their bad actions. Continue to make it my fault or worse yet tell me it never happened.

What? Where do you read that? I just went back and read her post.


Now, I am not sure my post is helpful at all.
I was trying to say that I did not wait for them to make amends or apologize because after knowing them, it did not seem likely.
My hardest work was forgiving them and myself for allowing it to take over my life. Just my experience with abusers and apologies.

dandylion, I am sure you deserve an apology.

Beth

CAgirl9

Dandylion - no apology necessary. I dont think you are hijacking my thread.
You are right on target with what I'm thinking. I would like to receive amends/acknowledgement for all the hurtful behavior. I know there is a possibility I may never receive them from RAH but I'm hopeful. Of course at this point it sounds likely he'll relapse.
Thanks to everyone for all the good conversation on this topic!!

fairlyuncertain

I also wonder if the As in my life will 'get it.' Here's my order of priority:
1)the verbal abuse stops (this one is up to me, to get out of the way)
2)the alcoholic stops drinking and gets in recovery, so as to remain alive and a functional person/parent
3) that he goes forward sober, regains health and grows in decency and empathy
4)has an awakening, a realization of the harm he's done, and a true desire to right those wrongs.

I'd settle for one and two, and that he goes forward sober. The rest would be icing on the cake. I almost don't think he's ever going to understand the damage he's done. If he does understand, will he even care?

I think some people deserve a spectacular amends, I imagine it like a deluxe marriage proposal, but asking for forgiveness at sunset instead. I hope you get something like that!

Crazed

Here is the best I would get: "I am really sorry that you interpret my actions as being so hurtful."

What I am realizing is that apologies from an alcoholic really mean nothing (either active or not) unless they back them up with actions. I too, as all of my family members that were close to EXAG, here never received any amends. Although she will say she has made them to me...

CAGirl9- I hope at least the last 15 months have been more peaceful. Good luck, and I hope he does start to get true recovery.