CentralOhioDad

Sorry to have to read that you are going through all this. Hugs and prayers are with you.

C-OH Dad

Florence

This was one of the best things that helped me define my boundaries in the beginning:

10 Ways Family Members Can Help a Loved One with a Drug or Alcohol Problem
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...l-problem.html

Good luck. I'm sorry you're dealing with this.

wolfpackfan45

You're not alone. Our sons sound a lot alike, but mine is a 22 year old alcoholic. I know exactly how frustrated you feel. My son has supposedly been sober for almost 6 months, but am starting to wonder if he's relapsed. He's away at college so it's difficult for us to really know whether he's telling us the truth or not. When he was drinking he lost clothes, cellphones, wallets, etc. He lied over and over to us about his classes, his life, etc. He ended up in the hospital and when we went to his college town to get him I was appalled at his living conditions. I could barely keep from crying it was so hideous. He dropped out of college for a semester and came to live with us while he saw a counselor and attended AA meetings constantly. He gained some of the weight he'd lost back and was becoming the young man we knew before. He went back to college and I'm now seeing signs of old behaviors . As a parent it's so difficult to watch your son throw his life away. All you were hoping for them going down the drain with the liquor. Hang in there with your son. I attend Al Anon and see a counselor myself just to be able to cope with all this. I never imagined we'd be dealing with this at our age. I've learned not to enable but I think the hardest thing to accept is the fact that he doesn't seem to care too much how all this has worried us. Addiction is a very selfish and cunning disease.

pravchaw

Thank you very much for your messages and words of wisdom. To wolfpackfan45 - I know exactly what you are going through - my son has continued to relapse continuously over the last 3 years and each time he is in a worse position.

I had breakfast today with my son's AA sponsor and worked out a rough plan. He has to take many concrete steps to start to repair all the things he has wrecked. Once I can see he is acting in the right way, I can start helping him. First he has to get a job and start to repay his debt to the university. Second, he has to get treatment - see a Councillor or psychiatrist and attend AA. Once I see some action I can help him - but we need to see some Action.

pravchaw

Last week my "A" son hit bottom hard. He stole his grandmothers ATM card and withdrew $100 to buy marijuana. Fortunately she quickly noticed the card missing and we called the bank to cancel the card before he could do much damage.

His younger brother (who was home from college) drove over to his place late at night (without us knowing) and forced him to surrender his marijuana and remaining stolen money.

Next day he came home extremely remorseful and distraught. He talked to his sponsor and his AA sponsor advised us to let him stay at home as his emotional condition was fragile. For the last week he has been home, sober and attending AA meetings regularly. Next week he will be looking for a job. He has also seen a psychiatrist and seems to be serious about his recovery. Hope this lasts long enough to become self sustaining.

LexieCat

I'm sorry, but I'm not clear on a few things. Why is he going to AA and having an AA sponsor? Unless I've missed it, you've never mentioned that he is an alcoholic, as well. Why not NA? Alcoholism is a form of addiction, but he might do much better in NA, which is designed to address addiction to other kinds of drugs. While some of the issues are similar, most addicts do not relate as directly to the experiences of alcoholics and vice-versa. I'm not suggesting that you should steer him in a different direction--after all, it's HIS recovery, but I don't know why he isn't involved in NA instead.

I'm also not sure why his sponsor is telling you what you should do. Sponsors generally work with the alcoholic, not with the family. It seems inappropriate for him to be giving YOU guidance on what you should or should not do. That kind of guidance would be better from your own Al-Anon sponsor.

And I hate to be negative, but what makes you think this event has been a "bottom" for him? Hasn't he been stealing to support his habit all along?

I know you and your family are suffering greatly, as all loved ones of addicts do. I hope you are getting help for yourselves. Your son does not sound like he has any commitment to getting clean--it looks to me like he is just going through the motions to try to placate everyone.

pravchaw

for you comments and great questions. He got referred to AA after his rehab last year - and he continued with that - and his sponsor is an AA guy. I guess in the suburbs NA meetings are not that common and AA meetings are more accessible.
His sponsor is quite a bit older than him. He is 21 and sponsor is 49. (sober for 6 years). He & his family have become a family friends over the last year. Our communication with our AS had completely broken down. He has helped us start communicating again but without bitterness, anger or guilt.

Al-anon philosophy of detachment has not resonated with us . While I accept that we cannot cure him or control him, I prefer creative engagement to encourage him to seek treatment and recovery as long as he accepts our boundaries. He knows that if he steals from us once more or comes home intoxicated or we find drugs in the house he will be out again back to his room in the slum.

You may be right. I think we will know very soon. We are hopeful but keeping our expectations very low. I know he will lapse or relapse but I understand this is part of recovery. Even if he does not totally quit - can harm reduction be an alternative for the short or medium term?

Thank you for your understanding of our suffering - we have had several session with an addiction family counselor. You may be right that he is feigning recovery. My reasoning is as follows:

I think he really wants to be with his family and even though he may be placating us - his action may benefit him. I read an AA slogan - if you bring your body - your mind will follow. We hope his mind will follow. In any event we will know soon.

Please keep on sharing your honest view point. It will keep in on my toes and open to a contrary view which may be the correct one. At times I feel I am in dark room feeling my way around.

LexieCat

I know ALLLL about "harm reduction"--I got much, much worse in my own alcoholism while attempting to practice it. If someone is, indeed, addicted, the harm is going to progress as long as the addictive substance is being consumed.

OK, I do understand why you are getting input from his sponsor, but I still think he would relate much more to the NA crowd. Since you are close with his AA sponsor, maybe he could explain to you why he thinks AA is a good fit for him. Because, frankly, people in AA meetings are actively discouraged from discussing their drug use. Any mention is usually very brief, and people are specifically told, quite often, to confine their shares to their problems with ALCOHOL. Our Third Tradition says the only requirement for membership in AA is a desire to stop DRINKING. So basically, he is going to be hearing all about alcohol, and alcoholism, and not being in a position to share much with the group. He will be in the position of being something of an outsider in a group where close relationships are encouraged.

So "bringing the body" to AA may not be providing what his mind needs to hear.

I'm speaking as someone sober in AA for close to five years, and someone who has been around it for 33 years (when my first husband got sober). I just don't see how he is going to be able to relate to the AA program when his addiction is to marijuana.

pravchaw

I will talk to his sponsor again to see why NA might be better. He told me once my son did not want to go since he associated NA with much harder drugs that marijuana. I was not aware that .

Re: Harm reduction - is really only to meet him where he is. I know longer term abstinence is the only viable solution.

Justfor1

[QUOTE=pravchaw;3962774]I will talk to his sponsor again to see why NA might be better. He told me once my son did not want to go since he associated NA with much harder drugs that marijuana. I was not aware that .

If he stole his grandmothers ATM card than he is doing exactly what heroin/cocaine addicts do. Marijuana can be a very serious drug.

Archangelesk

I am so sorry. My little brother pulled very similar stunts for almost a decade. It has been so hard for my parents to try and determine when and how to support him without enabling him. But, things like failing out of school were actually good things for him in the end. He had to feel the pain enough to decide he wanted something better. He eventually made it through an associate's degree, and got a job he really loved. He managed a few good years and had committed himself to not drinking and quit smoking cigerettes. He always continues the pot, but we cheer for any reduction in substances with him. And then his dog was seriously injured and he had to put her down. And everything spiraled out again. He has no coping skills for grief, because he uses instead. He lost his job.

My parents did not let him move back into their home (he's in his early 30s). They did provide logistical support and some cash assistance moving back (he was out of state), but left him on his own beyond that. He got a minimum wage job and crashed in a friend's basement. My parents had him over regularily and just tried to communicate their support and love. He then got pulled over for drunk driving.

We debated quite a bit over what to do. I am a lawyer and I really pushed that we should get one for my brother (not my area of the law or my state, so I could not help). We ended up hiring someone I found and my dad went with my brother for the whole ordeal. My brother was crushed. Just so hopeless about his life and his future. But for once he seemed geniunely engaged. No one was after him to get to his hearing or figure out what he needed to do. He hit the bottom and he was clearly just devastated, but also determined somehow. I'd hate for it to take that long for your son, but I do feel like my brother needed a certain threshold of misery before he could decide to make a better set of choices.

It is not all good news. He is not in treatment or AA. He is not sober, just keeping it very, very moderate. So, I don't expect this to last forever. But, the attorney's got his DUI down to a failure to control. My brother then decided he needed to begin a serious job search for a job with a future and benefits (he was also racking up medical bills becuase he was uninsured and had a series of unfortunate incidents - broken wrist falling off of his bike when he had no driver's liscence, gall stones out of the blue). He put a lot of effort into his job search and finally, once his got his license back he got hired by a company that pays him a respectable wage and benefits. He decided not to get a place and to stay in the friend's basement so he could attack his debt. He paid back my parents for the attorney (which was so very worthwhile on the cost front - if he had gotten a DUI instead of what they plead him down to, he never would have been hired by this company). I had sent him a thousand bucks as a loan to cover court fee's. I never expected to see it again. But I just got a check last week for the whole amount.

Now, I am well aware that some of these choices were enabling. Heck, maybe if he had been left to go it alone, and probably to jail, he would have turned it around more completely and entered real recovery. Or maybe he would have committed suicide (which is what I truly thought he would do if we did not try to preserve a lifeline of hope for him).

I can't really say. But, I think my parents did the best job they could of picking when and where to throw their support in and when to step back and let him crash. I swear to god, my father lost five years of his life in worry over this. It eats him up especially. But my brother has only every made steps forward when things became intolerable.

So I guess I wrote all that to say that maybe this college failure is a step that needed to happen for yoru son. And because reading other people's stories on this forum helps me so much. I am here because of my husband, and it is funny, I can read other people's stories about their significant others and have such a clear sense of what they should do (which is typically, in the case of a spouse or girlfriend or boyfriend to get the hell out of dodge. With a kid, well, let's just say my heart aches for you and with worry about my little ones someday having the same issues. I can't tell you what I would do, because it is too hard for me to even contemplate). But anyway, I think it is like a muscle that needs to be flexed. I read enough on this forum and suddenly I can look at my own life and apply the cold logic that is so easy for me to apply to strangers.

My heart goes out to you.

wicked

Yes, this is excellent. A muscle to be flexed.

I am the mother of two addicted children. One to heroin and maintaining (pffft only word I have for it now)with methadone and the other successfully attending and just finishing her first two year college.

That muscle I have, the one that says no went dormant somewhere between my ex-husbands departure and my children starting their addictions.
I need practice, that is why I am going to meetings and coming here.

No, you cannot have any of MY money. Get a job. NO you cannot live with me.
NO I do not have any ideas to save you, you have been in a program, you know what you need to do.

Stay out of my recovery, because again, NO, it is not your business.
NO is a complete sentence.
NO.

Thank you. Just did some lifting there.

Beth

I am going to bed to read my newly acquired Al Anon, How it Works book.
Oh yes, I have a library full of books, especially about my alcoholism and my issues as an Adult Child of an Alcoholic.
They are the same, but they are different.
I control nothing but me.<<<< this stays true through everything.

"No" and "nothing" will open a whole world of yays to my life!

wicked

And he has to be able to relate,
realize he is one of them,
instead of different from them
in order to accept they know what they are talking about.
As long as he is "different" and "special" he will not get the help he needs.
My opinion as a recovering alcoholic and with two kids going thru or having been through it.

AlAnon is just for people like me, who have an addicted love one.
Pravchaw, do you have an addicted loved one?
Or, are you "special" and "different" from those people.
Just a question to ask yourself.

Beth

LexieCat

Yeah, it sort of sounds as if your son is thinking of himself as somehow "above" the others in NA because he is "only" addicted to marijuana. The thing is, there are professional people in NA, too--I know nurses and other professionals who became seriously addicted to prescription medications or pricy powder cocaine. The dynamics of OBTAINING illegal drugs is different, too--alcoholics don't have their bartender's number in their cell phones, the way street drug addicts have their dealer's number on speed dial. They don't have to go into risky places to obtain their substance of choice. The language is different. The "highs" are different from being drunk, too, as are the situations that bring on temptations in the beginning.

So I think your son is trying to fit in with the alcoholics (on the theory that pot is no "worse" than alcohol), because he doesn't see himself as "one of THEM" (those addicted to other drugs). Again, as Beth points out, to the extent we see ourselves as "special" or "different" we are cutting ourselves out of opportunities to benefit from what programs have to offer us. There is a saying in AA (and I'm sure it is used in NA, too): "Identify, don't compare." Look for how other members FELT about their drinking or using--how important it was to them, how they felt about anticipating the drunk/high, experiencing it, what it did for them--rather than comparing how your external life looks ("I never went to jail, I never even got a DUI, I'm not as bad off as these people.").

Archangelesk

This is such good advice, and works for codependents too. When I compare Mr. Arch's drinking to others, I can tell myself, it is not so much or so bad. When I compare his behaviors to those described by others on this forum, I know that I have a very serious problem on my hands, and I cannot downplay it.

dandylion

Yeah, I have know several people who attended AA when their primary drug of choice was other than alcohol. When I would ask them why--their reasons were similar as above. As I recall, none of them actually seemed to be working the steps--just attending a couple of open meetings per week. It seemed to me that they were trying to stay in that "sweet spot". Attending AA enough that they could rationalize that they were in treatment--And not having to be identified as a drug user--thus leaving the back door open to use drugs if and when they wanted to. The ones that I knew still smoked pot and took the occassional prescription drugs--at least, that is what they shared with me.

Having been through the parent of adult children issue---it seems to me that a well-meaning parent who wants with every fiber in their body for their child to turn their back on addiction and pursue the activities that ensure a solid and productive future life---is at a clear disadvantage against an adult child whose main goal is to preserve their ability to drink/use. The one child can turn several adults on their head "trying to help them". The manipulation skills of the addicted child make the parent look like a piker. The parent and the child are basically using two different rule books. The child knows where all the parents hot buttons (achilles heels) are and pushes them with impunity. The child knows that the parent has no "real" control---the parent does not yet know this about the child. The child gets high and "comfortable while the parent is loosing their ever-lovin' mind.

I have sooo been there and done that.

I just thought I would share my experience in case it m ight help...

sincerely, dandylion

pravchaw

Thanks for the great advise. I have set up some time this evening with my son's AA sponsor to discuss AA vs NA over coffee. Ultimately of course my son has to follow through, but the boundary I had set with him was that he could stay in our home as long as he is actively in recovery and getting treatment. He has been attending AA, and has gone to see a psychiatrist - which is better than nothing. He has been sober for a week now. I am reluctant to push NA on him as I am aware he has to want it (not just need it). His sponsor believes that he is getting ready for the 4th step.

Recovering2

I don't know, and please don't be offended, but I'm uncomfortable with the idea that YOU are meeting with HIS sponsor to discuss AA vs NA. I see "helicoptering" going on, when you hover above and monitor his recovery. Your son is an adult, he should be having the conversation with his sponsor, if he's interested in having the conversation at all. What if the sponsor says NA would be better? Then what? Your son has already made it clear he isn't interested in NA. It's really his decision. I think the take away from these posts might be that he may not be successful long term if he doesn't get real and face that he isn't really addressing HIS issues in AA. But it's his path, he has to learn those lessons.

I would treat him as an adult, respect the sponsor/sponsee relationship, and lovingly step out of their way.

pravchaw

I agree. Now that I have set up the time, I will invite my son as well to join the conversation. He can absorb the information and then He can then decide to act either way ... is fine with me.
My bottom line is he has to continue to take positive action if he wants our support. Smoking pot and watching video's on his computer in our house is not an option.

pravchaw

Unfortunately the kid relapsed. He barely made it for a week. I am not feeling too bad - probably will hit me tomorrow.

Lather, rinse, repeat.