Update and progress...
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Location: Midwest, USA
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I've read more than once in your posts about how attractive, sexy & wonderful your AW is & that it's "just" her "drunk evil twin" that is ugly. I think you are still failing to acknowledge that she IS that drunk evil twin, even if she hides her well most of the time. There isn't a separation.
The question is whether or not you can live like this and raise your children in this environment indefinitely. Boundaries are about deciding when to draw the line in the sand, and they're really not something you negotiate *with* the alcoholic. They're for you and about you.
Your boundary about her going to rehab if she drinks was a step in the right direction. However, you can't make her go into rehab. She knows that. Clearly you've had that discussion a few times and she has won. The boundary could be, the next time you find her drinking while caring for your children, you will ask her politely to leave the house, and if she does not, you will have to call the police to remove her. Then it's your decision to make regarding how many times you have to call the police before you realize how insane this is and pull out altogether. Whatever. But boundaries aren't something you negotiate with her. Ideally, you don't need to run them past her either. They're for you, about you, to protect you from the insanity.
I wish more than anything that you could put a little distance between you and your wife and recognize that her sobriety isn't your call to make. It's hers. You can't make her do anything. That's the acceptance part of this, the "life on life's terms." You can, however, decide how much insanity to maintain in yours and your kid's lives. That may mean lovingly pulling away from her to give her the dignity of her own choices and consequences, whatever that means.
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Join Date: Nov 2011
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Thanks Sprite.
I'm obsessing, she's driving her recovery with her sponsor and I stay out of that part. I try not to ask too many questions now.
But.... Damn. If we did not have a kid I think I know how I would handle this - I'd be able to stand aside and hope and pray but leave it to her. With the baby it changes things. I can't simply follow the normal play book because well, when she was unable to keep from drinking she abdicated her responsibility. The playbook says you can't take responsibility for preventing or cleaning up a mistake that an alcoholic makes because that is enabling. ...but the playbook doesn't cover what to do if anything but strict sobriety puts a life other than the alcoholics in danger. You can't leave someone to the natural consequences of their actions if that consequence is a child's well being.
Hence I need to chat with a professional about how to ensure his safety without enabling.
I do get that the evil twin is part of my wife. I have to seperate it out in my head to stay sane right now, otherwise there is just no way to get over things like the risk she took when she drank. All the same angry, indignant and appalled reactions you are feeling, multiply by 1000. But... I had to set that aside because what's the other option?
I hear the concern and appreciate it and agree that it's recovery with us or alcohol away from us. I see her doing te right things but as you all know, the scary part is that only she can know if she's going to drink again and whether she is or isn't going to her answer will be "no" so why ask?
So... Today is a good day. I love my wife, she went to a meeting and not to a bar today. Son is well, I'm holding up. Not expecting that things are solved, a win for me right now would be one quiet and peaceful month.
Whichever way it goes, I have to be ok and keep my head. That's my job, recovery is wife's job and I'm getting better at detaching from it... Not there yet but I am a baby in alanon years and just trying to crawl through tone day at a time
I'm obsessing, she's driving her recovery with her sponsor and I stay out of that part. I try not to ask too many questions now.
But.... Damn. If we did not have a kid I think I know how I would handle this - I'd be able to stand aside and hope and pray but leave it to her. With the baby it changes things. I can't simply follow the normal play book because well, when she was unable to keep from drinking she abdicated her responsibility. The playbook says you can't take responsibility for preventing or cleaning up a mistake that an alcoholic makes because that is enabling. ...but the playbook doesn't cover what to do if anything but strict sobriety puts a life other than the alcoholics in danger. You can't leave someone to the natural consequences of their actions if that consequence is a child's well being.
Hence I need to chat with a professional about how to ensure his safety without enabling.
I do get that the evil twin is part of my wife. I have to seperate it out in my head to stay sane right now, otherwise there is just no way to get over things like the risk she took when she drank. All the same angry, indignant and appalled reactions you are feeling, multiply by 1000. But... I had to set that aside because what's the other option?
I hear the concern and appreciate it and agree that it's recovery with us or alcohol away from us. I see her doing te right things but as you all know, the scary part is that only she can know if she's going to drink again and whether she is or isn't going to her answer will be "no" so why ask?
So... Today is a good day. I love my wife, she went to a meeting and not to a bar today. Son is well, I'm holding up. Not expecting that things are solved, a win for me right now would be one quiet and peaceful month.
Whichever way it goes, I have to be ok and keep my head. That's my job, recovery is wife's job and I'm getting better at detaching from it... Not there yet but I am a baby in alanon years and just trying to crawl through tone day at a time
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Join Date: Jun 2012
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Just like some of the other posters here, I have been mulling this over, rereading your posts, starting to respond, then erasing it and mulling it over some more. I am leaning more and more toward the ideas that Central Ohio Dad, Florence, Tuffgirl, and Firesprite have expressed.
Here's what's concerning me. You wrote:
What I am hearing is a real vacillation in your decision making. I think you are way deep into the daily details of what is happening, what may be happening, what you can know and what you can't know, and so on.
And you are, (as we all are, more or less for each of us), bereft with hope that you can salvage the marriage and joint parenting and life you want so much with your wife. As we all do at one point or another, you have a real bias toward getting the life of your dreams to appear.
Somehow, POH'sFriend, I think that because of your hopes, and because of your persistent lack of clarity, you are pulling your punches and not getting to the root of the problem. And if one does not acknowledge the heart of an issue, there is little that one can do to fix the problem.
You could, for example, eliminate all the risk to your son with one decision: remove your wife as primary caretaker of the child and end her breast feeding until SHE proves to YOU that she is consistently sober and committed to recovery. I am not saying to do that. I am saying that you could choose that, so you do have a clear solution to taking care of your son that doesn't require more input.
So, as I imagine you do daily in your business life, you need to cut through the equivocation and get to the meat of the matter.
Here are some thoughts that come to my mind; I don't know if they fit or not, that's up to you.
Part of the question I'd be asking myself, if I were you, is "How do I get rid of these d*mn blinders of what I want it to be, and get down to brass tacks about what the facts really are?
Then I'd ask myself "As a husband of a new wife, as a husband of an alcoholic wive, as a father of a newborn, and as a father of a teenage daughter, what are my responsibilities and accountabilities in EACH of those roles, each one separate from the other?"
So, there would be 4 different examinations of your various relationships and what they require of you.
Then, having done that, I would start, across the board, to prioritize which responsibility/obligation comes first, second, and so forth.
Then I would, across the board, list the facts of what is happening in each of the four relationships, without any feelings or editing. Just the facts, ma'am.
I think by the end of this, you will have focused yourself on what results you want to create, and I think your decision making will be done with far greater clarity.
POH'sFriend, I hope this doesn't sound too tough or intrusive. I think you are in a terribly difficult situation ethically, and it is a bear to sort out. I have a whole lot of respect for you and your honesty and willingness and ability to come to SR and ask for the candor you've asked for.
One more thought. I don't think we know much about your wife, and we don't need to. However, her age, her lifestyle, her past, all these factors will make a difference in her and your future. In my experience in interviewing executives in business, I found that people tend to create similar results throughout the various roles and experiences in their lives. This might be something to think about, too. What results has she tended to create in her life?
Way too much, sorry for the overload. Please, take what you want, leave the rest. This is all said in great support of you and yours.
ShootingStar1
Here's what's concerning me. You wrote:
- "Main problem is still not knowing what the right approach is.
- If I follow the advice of a pro and he's wrong I can get my head around it. ...
- but I keep finding myself forced to make decisions I am not trained to make and then brutalizing myself when i am wrong.
- I could have prevented the drinking after the first time or at worst caught the first day of it
- I goofed, I don't know what the cost of that was yet.
- Fortunately, little guy seems perfect but it pains me to know that he is OK in spite of me, not because of me.
- For 17 years I have defined myself in terms of what kind of Dad I am and this has dented that self-image ...badly."
What I am hearing is a real vacillation in your decision making. I think you are way deep into the daily details of what is happening, what may be happening, what you can know and what you can't know, and so on.
And you are, (as we all are, more or less for each of us), bereft with hope that you can salvage the marriage and joint parenting and life you want so much with your wife. As we all do at one point or another, you have a real bias toward getting the life of your dreams to appear.
Somehow, POH'sFriend, I think that because of your hopes, and because of your persistent lack of clarity, you are pulling your punches and not getting to the root of the problem. And if one does not acknowledge the heart of an issue, there is little that one can do to fix the problem.
You could, for example, eliminate all the risk to your son with one decision: remove your wife as primary caretaker of the child and end her breast feeding until SHE proves to YOU that she is consistently sober and committed to recovery. I am not saying to do that. I am saying that you could choose that, so you do have a clear solution to taking care of your son that doesn't require more input.
So, as I imagine you do daily in your business life, you need to cut through the equivocation and get to the meat of the matter.
Here are some thoughts that come to my mind; I don't know if they fit or not, that's up to you.
- You are valuing the potential of your wife's bond with your son very highly.
- You are hopeful that you can find a solution to guarantee your son's well-being and safety THROUGH how you deal with your wife's alcoholism.
- You are trying to finesse getting the life you expected to have, (the life most of us here on SR expected, wanted) by seeing what is really happening through the lens of your vision of what you'd like it to be.
Part of the question I'd be asking myself, if I were you, is "How do I get rid of these d*mn blinders of what I want it to be, and get down to brass tacks about what the facts really are?
Then I'd ask myself "As a husband of a new wife, as a husband of an alcoholic wive, as a father of a newborn, and as a father of a teenage daughter, what are my responsibilities and accountabilities in EACH of those roles, each one separate from the other?"
So, there would be 4 different examinations of your various relationships and what they require of you.
Then, having done that, I would start, across the board, to prioritize which responsibility/obligation comes first, second, and so forth.
Then I would, across the board, list the facts of what is happening in each of the four relationships, without any feelings or editing. Just the facts, ma'am.
I think by the end of this, you will have focused yourself on what results you want to create, and I think your decision making will be done with far greater clarity.
POH'sFriend, I hope this doesn't sound too tough or intrusive. I think you are in a terribly difficult situation ethically, and it is a bear to sort out. I have a whole lot of respect for you and your honesty and willingness and ability to come to SR and ask for the candor you've asked for.
One more thought. I don't think we know much about your wife, and we don't need to. However, her age, her lifestyle, her past, all these factors will make a difference in her and your future. In my experience in interviewing executives in business, I found that people tend to create similar results throughout the various roles and experiences in their lives. This might be something to think about, too. What results has she tended to create in her life?
Way too much, sorry for the overload. Please, take what you want, leave the rest. This is all said in great support of you and yours.
ShootingStar1
RIP Sweet Suki
Join Date: Apr 2008
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Well, since you said you don't mind bluntness, I'll just come out and say what I've been thinking the past two days about this situation.
She has proven to you that you cannot trust her. There is an innocent infant involved here, so since you cannot trust her, I would not allow her to be alone with the baby until she has proven, for a long period of time, that she can again be trusted.
If there weren't a baby involved, I would say do whatever you want. But that baby is the MOST important piece of this puzzle.
She has proven to you that you cannot trust her. There is an innocent infant involved here, so since you cannot trust her, I would not allow her to be alone with the baby until she has proven, for a long period of time, that she can again be trusted.
If there weren't a baby involved, I would say do whatever you want. But that baby is the MOST important piece of this puzzle.
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Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: atlanta, ga
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[QUOTE=PohsFriend;3695764]Thanks guys and the bluntness doesn't bother me. I've never been around addiction and alcoholism until the past two years so I don't know what I am dealing with by any means.
I'm also scratching my head wondering about whether she's had other 'slips'. The first one I knew of was a slip - took a few sips and puked it up. The next event a couple weeks later that I did not discover for a few months was a different story. Three days where she made the decision to drink, drank and hid it.
One thing I don't have a good grasp on yet is what you can reasonably expect to hold an alcoholic accountable for.
Example: I know that once she starts, left to her own devices she winds up circling the drain. Once an alcoholic starts drinking, I wouldn't expect that they could stop.[QUOTE]
You and I are the same until 2 years ago I never knew anything about alcoholism. Mine was sober 10 years until this past summer. Here's what I can tell you about what you expect, or what you think per your post......its progressive they don't just become an incorrigible drunk in one night, or days, or a couple of weeks and this pertains to those relapsing as well. There are exceptions to this; however, you will read and probably have read on many occasions the term "progression" . Its how they trick themselves to believe that they can handle it - simply because they didn't end up in a black out drunk or where they were when they quit before the first time they drank again.
My RAH when he was drinking in front of me never finished a bottle, passed out, threw up, got sick, or any of the things I imagined initially. He was pleasant. Not a problem until ONE NIGHT. Anyway - not about me - but I saw over the short period of time he was drinking definite progression in the amount he was drinking until he stopped.
Like your wife my AH almost died from alcoholism and has chronic illness from it in the form of pancreatitis and type 1 diabetes. For ***** and giggles I just pulled out his medical records that are stored in boxes we have them dating back to 2004 so missing 2 years - it measures 17.5 inches high. And yet, he drank again. Sober 10 years, drank again. Happiest time of his life and he f'ing drank again. In the hospital last August for a pancreatitis flare up and yup....guess what. He drank again.
So I wish that the birth of your son is a miracle motivation for her to stay sober. For me I realized that if my A's illness would not keep him sober that there isn't a particular thing or action or situation that keeps them sober no matter how wonderful or how dangerous. Only active recovery keeps them sober. I will never ask him if he will drink again or believe that sobriety is forever because there is no guarantee that he will actively treat his disease forever. I continue to treat my own codependency so that next time (I prefer to think there will be) I am prepared.
Your situation is so complicated - we all think what we would do but what would we do? We don't walk in your shoes. Professional advice is a good way to handle it.
Glad you had a peaceful day.
I'm also scratching my head wondering about whether she's had other 'slips'. The first one I knew of was a slip - took a few sips and puked it up. The next event a couple weeks later that I did not discover for a few months was a different story. Three days where she made the decision to drink, drank and hid it.
One thing I don't have a good grasp on yet is what you can reasonably expect to hold an alcoholic accountable for.
Example: I know that once she starts, left to her own devices she winds up circling the drain. Once an alcoholic starts drinking, I wouldn't expect that they could stop.[QUOTE]
You and I are the same until 2 years ago I never knew anything about alcoholism. Mine was sober 10 years until this past summer. Here's what I can tell you about what you expect, or what you think per your post......its progressive they don't just become an incorrigible drunk in one night, or days, or a couple of weeks and this pertains to those relapsing as well. There are exceptions to this; however, you will read and probably have read on many occasions the term "progression" . Its how they trick themselves to believe that they can handle it - simply because they didn't end up in a black out drunk or where they were when they quit before the first time they drank again.
My RAH when he was drinking in front of me never finished a bottle, passed out, threw up, got sick, or any of the things I imagined initially. He was pleasant. Not a problem until ONE NIGHT. Anyway - not about me - but I saw over the short period of time he was drinking definite progression in the amount he was drinking until he stopped.
Like your wife my AH almost died from alcoholism and has chronic illness from it in the form of pancreatitis and type 1 diabetes. For ***** and giggles I just pulled out his medical records that are stored in boxes we have them dating back to 2004 so missing 2 years - it measures 17.5 inches high. And yet, he drank again. Sober 10 years, drank again. Happiest time of his life and he f'ing drank again. In the hospital last August for a pancreatitis flare up and yup....guess what. He drank again.
So I wish that the birth of your son is a miracle motivation for her to stay sober. For me I realized that if my A's illness would not keep him sober that there isn't a particular thing or action or situation that keeps them sober no matter how wonderful or how dangerous. Only active recovery keeps them sober. I will never ask him if he will drink again or believe that sobriety is forever because there is no guarantee that he will actively treat his disease forever. I continue to treat my own codependency so that next time (I prefer to think there will be) I am prepared.
Your situation is so complicated - we all think what we would do but what would we do? We don't walk in your shoes. Professional advice is a good way to handle it.
Glad you had a peaceful day.
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Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Real World
Posts: 729
You all have good points and I needed it so thank you.
It's my nature to put my best spin on things and I use humor as a defense mechanism and frankly it's just hard sometimes to know what to do next. I am in way over my head with no real idea what I am dealing with.
I just wrote and erased about ten pages - too much detail.
The summary is that I am scared to death and way over my head. To use a quacker reference you are seeing the duck - calm and serene on the surface, paddling like hell to stay above water underneath. My counselor says I'm holding up pretty well but that between this and pain I am exhausted and a little depressed.
Tuffgirl, Florence and shootinstar hit home with some really good points that are right on target.
Not sure what to do because I just spent a few months learning the playbook and it did not cover this. You shouldn't police an alcoholic or monitor their recovery or make it easier for them... let them decide and deal with the consequences. Well, that's horseshit when there is a baby in or out of the womb at stake.
So for his good and hers and mine I think we need to meet with someone who does assessments at the rehab center. We really do need to do testing - it's demeaning and sure to cause resentment but life's a bitch. I don't see another option.
I love my wife. I understand that the same woman I love and adore and who I know would die for that little baby is so powerless over alcohol that for three straight days she was able to make the decision to have a first drink and then another, I know she stole then lied about and took my Adderall which makes zero sense - she is not addicted to amphetamines. I know that if anyone else put my son at risk that way I would need to be jailed until they had time to get out of the state for their own protection. So in order to cope I have to make that split - the person, the disease... I had cancer once and had it gotten to my brain before they got all of it then it is entirely possible that it would make me unsafe around the baby. I would expect her to protect him but not to codemn or hate me and I feel as bad for her as I do angry about what she did because she hs to carry this and it has to suck. I'm torn every day - what is enabling and excusing versus what is supportive and understanding without condoning or excusing. What things, if any, should make me furious? When we are betrayed we think that the other person did something heinous with no regard for us and that they must not care... but that just isn't true.They do it in spite of caring and that s more frightening, it shows the power of the disease.
I know a lot of things, what to do, what to believe, how to respond... those just arent on the 'known' list. Did the best I could today, will try that same thing tomorrow and keep praying that she finds whatever it is she needs to treat her sobriety as life and death.
Today was a good day, We took turns with son and momma went to AA and gym and we held each other with him in between us. Tomorrow I guess it is time to make that appointment to speak to someone at the rehab place. They might have some ideas, I'm all out. Not sure any of mine have been worth a damn ;-)
Need your prayers guys. Thankful for friends like you.
One last conundrum for tonight. You guys 'heard' the explosion during our honeymoon when my illusions were shattered. I'm guessing you can imagine that sitting across from me on the receiving end of that anger would suck, right? So if you drank again and did not get caught you would probably make sure I never found out, right?
From the WTF department: She had two months to refill the bottle or fess up, that whole time she knew that any time I might find it... Heck, she could have even told me she found it and dumped it out because she did not want the temptation. I don't get it... that's like playing Russian Roulette with a semi-auto
It's my nature to put my best spin on things and I use humor as a defense mechanism and frankly it's just hard sometimes to know what to do next. I am in way over my head with no real idea what I am dealing with.
I just wrote and erased about ten pages - too much detail.
The summary is that I am scared to death and way over my head. To use a quacker reference you are seeing the duck - calm and serene on the surface, paddling like hell to stay above water underneath. My counselor says I'm holding up pretty well but that between this and pain I am exhausted and a little depressed.
Tuffgirl, Florence and shootinstar hit home with some really good points that are right on target.
Not sure what to do because I just spent a few months learning the playbook and it did not cover this. You shouldn't police an alcoholic or monitor their recovery or make it easier for them... let them decide and deal with the consequences. Well, that's horseshit when there is a baby in or out of the womb at stake.
So for his good and hers and mine I think we need to meet with someone who does assessments at the rehab center. We really do need to do testing - it's demeaning and sure to cause resentment but life's a bitch. I don't see another option.
I love my wife. I understand that the same woman I love and adore and who I know would die for that little baby is so powerless over alcohol that for three straight days she was able to make the decision to have a first drink and then another, I know she stole then lied about and took my Adderall which makes zero sense - she is not addicted to amphetamines. I know that if anyone else put my son at risk that way I would need to be jailed until they had time to get out of the state for their own protection. So in order to cope I have to make that split - the person, the disease... I had cancer once and had it gotten to my brain before they got all of it then it is entirely possible that it would make me unsafe around the baby. I would expect her to protect him but not to codemn or hate me and I feel as bad for her as I do angry about what she did because she hs to carry this and it has to suck. I'm torn every day - what is enabling and excusing versus what is supportive and understanding without condoning or excusing. What things, if any, should make me furious? When we are betrayed we think that the other person did something heinous with no regard for us and that they must not care... but that just isn't true.They do it in spite of caring and that s more frightening, it shows the power of the disease.
I know a lot of things, what to do, what to believe, how to respond... those just arent on the 'known' list. Did the best I could today, will try that same thing tomorrow and keep praying that she finds whatever it is she needs to treat her sobriety as life and death.
Today was a good day, We took turns with son and momma went to AA and gym and we held each other with him in between us. Tomorrow I guess it is time to make that appointment to speak to someone at the rehab place. They might have some ideas, I'm all out. Not sure any of mine have been worth a damn ;-)
Need your prayers guys. Thankful for friends like you.
One last conundrum for tonight. You guys 'heard' the explosion during our honeymoon when my illusions were shattered. I'm guessing you can imagine that sitting across from me on the receiving end of that anger would suck, right? So if you drank again and did not get caught you would probably make sure I never found out, right?
From the WTF department: She had two months to refill the bottle or fess up, that whole time she knew that any time I might find it... Heck, she could have even told me she found it and dumped it out because she did not want the temptation. I don't get it... that's like playing Russian Roulette with a semi-auto
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Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 378
Worried for your beautiful new baby! Many words of wisdom here, and most with the same gut instinct.
Please protect him - your wife has a disease, one that has her in its grips. Your son must not have to pay the price for that.
One day at a time, stay in the moment - and keep him safe. #1.
Please protect him - your wife has a disease, one that has her in its grips. Your son must not have to pay the price for that.
One day at a time, stay in the moment - and keep him safe. #1.
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Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Real World
Posts: 729
[QUOTE=redatlanta;3696238] Thanks Red.
And it's a good point. Before getting to this forum I'm guessing most of us have done or accepted some things we would never expect.
The last few days I realized that I need the rollercoaster to level out now. I really am exhausted and this just isn't like any experience I can draw from in my past. Ironically, at work I'm a pretty senior executive and the guy they call for the really touchy and sensitive crises because finding a way out of messes and making everyone think it was their idea and they got what they want is a sick gift I was born with.
...but I've hit a block on this one, not sure which end is up or what is worse: the next 'event' or holding my breath waiting for it.
Sigh. Well, that first week was really hard, got off to a slow start with my son but my chest is his favorite sleeping place now and I'm hooked. Won't let anything hurt him.
Originally Posted by PohsFriend 
Your situation is so complicated - we all think what we would do but what would we do? We don't walk in your shoes. Professional advice is a good way to handle it.
Glad you had a peaceful day.
Glad you had a peaceful day.
And it's a good point. Before getting to this forum I'm guessing most of us have done or accepted some things we would never expect.
The last few days I realized that I need the rollercoaster to level out now. I really am exhausted and this just isn't like any experience I can draw from in my past. Ironically, at work I'm a pretty senior executive and the guy they call for the really touchy and sensitive crises because finding a way out of messes and making everyone think it was their idea and they got what they want is a sick gift I was born with.
...but I've hit a block on this one, not sure which end is up or what is worse: the next 'event' or holding my breath waiting for it.
Sigh. Well, that first week was really hard, got off to a slow start with my son but my chest is his favorite sleeping place now and I'm hooked. Won't let anything hurt him.
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Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: atlanta, ga
Posts: 3,581
Originally Posted by PohsFriend
You all have good points and I needed it so thank you.
One last conundrum for tonight. You guys 'heard' the explosion during our honeymoon when my illusions were shattered. I'm guessing you can imagine that sitting across from me on the receiving end of that anger would suck, right? So if you drank again and did not get caught you would probably make sure I never found out, right?
From the WTF department: She had two months to refill the bottle or fess up, that whole time she knew that any time I might find it... Heck, she could have even told me she found it and dumped it out because she did not want the temptation. I don't get it... that's like playing Russian Roulette with a semi-auto
One last conundrum for tonight. You guys 'heard' the explosion during our honeymoon when my illusions were shattered. I'm guessing you can imagine that sitting across from me on the receiving end of that anger would suck, right? So if you drank again and did not get caught you would probably make sure I never found out, right?
From the WTF department: She had two months to refill the bottle or fess up, that whole time she knew that any time I might find it... Heck, she could have even told me she found it and dumped it out because she did not want the temptation. I don't get it... that's like playing Russian Roulette with a semi-auto
I am a fixer too, in my job and in life people come to me to fix, figure out and advise. I am logical. Alcoholism is illogical. This does not compute in my world. Why, why, why, why why if you read my posts I have used that word more than any other. There is no why. It just is what it is.
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Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,452
Three quick thoughts -
First, I think I speak for the other posters here, we truly care about you and your family
Second, you are the mother ship of this operation, so to speak, and your job success is key to keeping all afloat, so you need to get to a place where you can concentrate on work.
Third, is it possible that losing access to her baby might be your AW's bottom? Right now you may be protecting her from that; she has her cake and eats it too, being able to care for and nurse her baby and still consider drinking.
Take care,
ShootingStar1
First, I think I speak for the other posters here, we truly care about you and your family
Second, you are the mother ship of this operation, so to speak, and your job success is key to keeping all afloat, so you need to get to a place where you can concentrate on work.
Third, is it possible that losing access to her baby might be your AW's bottom? Right now you may be protecting her from that; she has her cake and eats it too, being able to care for and nurse her baby and still consider drinking.
Take care,
ShootingStar1
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It has nothing to do with punishment. It is called setting boundaries and they aren't necessary because of what she is considering, they are necessary because of what she has done.
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Originally Posted by suki44883
It has nothing to do with punishment. It is called setting boundaries and they aren't necessary because of what she is considering, they are necessary because of what she has done.
So the boundary is that she can't drink and be here or take care of a baby. If she starts drinking it's rehab until she gets to ...the state she is in right now.
Look guys, I'm not defending what she did and I am just as afraid of what she might do but it's not so simple as send her away and remove the potential for her to do something. A mother going away for a month from a 4 week old? That has a huge impact on the baby - like potentially lifelong impacts when you look up root causes of some type A personality disorders.
Meeting with the folks at the rehab center and getting their opinion on how to effectively monitor the situation seems like the best approach - it keeps mom and baby together as long as she is doing all she appears to be doing and seems to be doing. Knowing that a test is coming like clockwork should overrule the fuzzy thinking of alcoholism. An alcoholic can rationalize that one drink won't hurt, but can't rationalize that it won't show up.
For the past 4 weeks things have gone exceedingly well, I am not naive enough (any more) to believe they will stay that way if we do what we have done before. But... the cure should not be worse than the illness. Seperating a baby from mom suddenly is a huge deal, it would harm the baby and my wife and create a dilemma for me - I need to get my focus on work and I am about to get surgery. Baby needs 24/7 care and she is providing that very well with help from me.
So... I don't see the logic here. Putting her in rehab because she drank ten weeks ago is punishment, not treatment. Putting her in rehab if she drinks again and finding some way to get testing done so I don't get fooled again is in everyone's best interest. The best case is that she can continue doing precisely what she is doing with the safety net of some form of monitoring in place rather than ripping the family apart when everything is going well.
This is not as simple as just remove the alcoholic from the situation and everything gets fixed. That solution has ramifications for the baby's emotional well-being and sense of security, mom's mental health, my sanity...
If she were drinking I'd agree completely. If after all that has happened if she can't control it despite knowing that it will be caught (plus knowing it would harm him and make things between us very bad) then it would be very clear - rehab would suck but be the safe and sane solution to a catch-22.
We aren't there. I have to deal with what is happening and be realistic and wary about what may happen but I missed the window ten weeks ago, that would be the time for rehab. Sending her there now would be like shutting the barn door after the horses are out and then shooting the horses while I am at it. This is a time when I need to block out emotions and react calmly and logically and cautiously.
Am I missing something? Setting boundaries is about if X occurs, then Y will happen. Making them retroactive defeats the purpose and would introduce new risks and problems. First do no harm applies here. ...I can't afford emotional reactions right now, I've messed this up enough already. The key now would seem to be esuring that I don't miss another dangerous event. What rehab program addresses our current situation? Right now she has ten weeks of going to AA, working the steps and not drinking. That's where a rehab center hopes to have someone when they leave, not when they enter.
I appreciate the concerna nd genuinely know that you all are concerned with nothing but the best interests of my family. I just don't see that solution providing a benefit that justifies the side effects.
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Originally Posted by PohsFriend
Am I missing something? Setting boundaries is about if X occurs, then Y will happen.
No one here is saying you must DO something right now. What I read is everyone saying to you that you need to be prepared to follow through on your boundaries next time, and chances are highly likely there will be a next time. I hope I am wrong, and I hope she reads this thread so she can hear words from other Mother's here that her behavior as a Mother is not looked upon kindly.
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Suggestion--you could have a counseling session with the rehab that does her testing. You could voice your real concern that your greatest fear is that she falls off the wagon while alone with the newborn.
I think an open discussion between the counselor, you, and your wife on this topic may help the management of averting this problem.
Your wife too will need this discussion held for her to understand that you want to avoid this situation occurring in the future, and that although you are willing to forgive the consumption while pregnant, you need much assurance that she will not relapse while caring for the child.
Really I think this subject could be over several meetings, or what I would call "maintenance" therapy for the two of you.
An addiction counselor whether at this rehab or not would be the obvious choice.
Why not? Maintenance counseling on this issue, to insure that the two of you stay on the same page with the serious harm that could happen. It would keep it in the forefront of your wife's mind too...I must not drink around the baby...I must not drink around the baby...over and over again.
Not to chastise her. Simply to have maintenance meetings on the subject of how important this one thing is.
It is said to let go and let the addict handle their recovery, but I think this situation is one in which you should be involved because of the child.
I think an open discussion between the counselor, you, and your wife on this topic may help the management of averting this problem.
Your wife too will need this discussion held for her to understand that you want to avoid this situation occurring in the future, and that although you are willing to forgive the consumption while pregnant, you need much assurance that she will not relapse while caring for the child.
Really I think this subject could be over several meetings, or what I would call "maintenance" therapy for the two of you.
An addiction counselor whether at this rehab or not would be the obvious choice.
Why not? Maintenance counseling on this issue, to insure that the two of you stay on the same page with the serious harm that could happen. It would keep it in the forefront of your wife's mind too...I must not drink around the baby...I must not drink around the baby...over and over again.
Not to chastise her. Simply to have maintenance meetings on the subject of how important this one thing is.
It is said to let go and let the addict handle their recovery, but I think this situation is one in which you should be involved because of the child.
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OK - we are saying the same thing. I 'heard' that I should insist on rehab now because the boundary was broken in September. Had i caught it then it would have been simple - she would have been somewhere getting help from that moment until the baby was born.
and the addiction counselor suggestion is what I said but must have said less than clearly - rather than have her go into a full inpatient treatment plan right now when the circumstances don't appear to call for it would be counterproductive.
Having it crystal clear that there will be testing and that if she is unable to control it then she will need to get help and that would mean inpatient treatment and that would suck for everyone in the short term but it is for her benefit and most importantly for our son's benefit.
So that's precisely the approach i have in mind. It isn't that I just ignored the boundary being broken, it is that by the time I learned of it the circumstances had changed.
...the key now is to ensure that I don't miss it again and that means taking me out of the equation since I am a big part of the problem. The rehab counselor and staff doesn't have the same conflicts I have - for them it is an objective problem they know how to deal with and they presumably can make better decisions. It isn't that I want to abdicate my responsibility, it's more that I realize I can't do this. It's just not possible given my personal biases and lack of objectivity I am too easy to deceive or manipulate.
I'm so tired.
and the addiction counselor suggestion is what I said but must have said less than clearly - rather than have her go into a full inpatient treatment plan right now when the circumstances don't appear to call for it would be counterproductive.
Having it crystal clear that there will be testing and that if she is unable to control it then she will need to get help and that would mean inpatient treatment and that would suck for everyone in the short term but it is for her benefit and most importantly for our son's benefit.
So that's precisely the approach i have in mind. It isn't that I just ignored the boundary being broken, it is that by the time I learned of it the circumstances had changed.
...the key now is to ensure that I don't miss it again and that means taking me out of the equation since I am a big part of the problem. The rehab counselor and staff doesn't have the same conflicts I have - for them it is an objective problem they know how to deal with and they presumably can make better decisions. It isn't that I want to abdicate my responsibility, it's more that I realize I can't do this. It's just not possible given my personal biases and lack of objectivity I am too easy to deceive or manipulate.
I'm so tired.
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Originally Posted by PohsFriend
It isn't that I want to abdicate my responsibility, it's more that I realize I can't do this. It's just not possible given my personal biases and lack of objectivity I am too easy to deceive or manipulate.
But once I set a hard line, I had to follow through with it or it meant nothing. It broke my heart, but I moved out. It broke my heart, but I let the divorce happen without trying to do anything to salvage things. It broke my heart, but I am moving on with a good life without the man I love. I was inconvenienced in many ways, also heartbreaking, but over time we overcome those.
I know how badly you want to keep this family intact. Just don't let your hope cloud reality anymore. Addiction is way bigger than you, or any of us here. The only thing you can do is protect yourself and your children. The rest really is up to her.
Prayers to you today,
~T
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PohsFriend:
........................Your wife in NOT in recovery. Your wife is NOT sober. You wife does Not have a sobriety date. Sobriety is as follows, no booze, no pills (especially other peoples) no Nyquil, no vanilla extract, no alcohol based mouthwash (used to be at meetings they had two guys standing by the door, peoples thought they were greeters, we called them "scopers" as they were shaking your hand and smelling your breath) ya know that clear gel you see in bathrooms, I think it's called "Germx" to spread on your hands??.........It's 100 proof booze. People cut it with H2o and drink it.In short, no mood or mind altering chemicals or substances ever. Your wife is a drunk & a junkie. Now when dealing with drunks & junkies only the names and faces change. The principles remain the same.
#1 You cannot believe a word she says, PERIOD, NO EXCEPTIONS, END OF STORY.
#2 She may be crazy, but she ain't stupid. She will lie, con, steal, manipulate, obfuscate, confuse, abuse, cheat, to get what she needs to get high. Every bone in her body is SCREAMING to get high all the time. She sounds like she needs to be locked up in a bank vault. As far as the kids are concerned that's a given, she's unfit. Right now this is not a ........"work on this together type of thing"............she needs to be detoxed
........................Your wife in NOT in recovery. Your wife is NOT sober. You wife does Not have a sobriety date. Sobriety is as follows, no booze, no pills (especially other peoples) no Nyquil, no vanilla extract, no alcohol based mouthwash (used to be at meetings they had two guys standing by the door, peoples thought they were greeters, we called them "scopers" as they were shaking your hand and smelling your breath) ya know that clear gel you see in bathrooms, I think it's called "Germx" to spread on your hands??.........It's 100 proof booze. People cut it with H2o and drink it.In short, no mood or mind altering chemicals or substances ever. Your wife is a drunk & a junkie. Now when dealing with drunks & junkies only the names and faces change. The principles remain the same.
#1 You cannot believe a word she says, PERIOD, NO EXCEPTIONS, END OF STORY.
#2 She may be crazy, but she ain't stupid. She will lie, con, steal, manipulate, obfuscate, confuse, abuse, cheat, to get what she needs to get high. Every bone in her body is SCREAMING to get high all the time. She sounds like she needs to be locked up in a bank vault. As far as the kids are concerned that's a given, she's unfit. Right now this is not a ........"work on this together type of thing"............she needs to be detoxed
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CFM - thanks for dropping in after I PM'd you. Input from a longterm AA sponsor helps clarify what needs to be done more.
Last time I was so sure that the one slip was 'it' and everyone here rolled their eyes. This time I think there have probably been things I've missed but that she's generally been abstaining and folks roll their eyes... and it occurs to me that something is obvious to everyone in the room other than me.
In hindsight I see a lot of flashing lights that got my spidey senses to perk up but I was afraid that following them would be wrong. In MC last week when I finally explained that the once per week upheaval, the drinking and lying was just wearing me out and I need it to stop... she said maybe we just should not be together because she doesn't want to be the cause of that sort of pain for anyone. I asked her if that was sarcasm - frankly it made me angry - but she said it was sincere.
I still don't know how to take it. ...but coupled with 3-4 occasions where she's mentioned how it would be easier if she were with another alcoholic who could understand so she would not feel so beat up. Well, my first thought was an angry one - something along the lines of "Who would handle the crises then?".
But as I think it over it might have been very sincere. It might be that she is not ready to stay clean and she knows that I am not buying it and she's making plans to find a replacement who is willing to accept it. There would be plenty, men get stupid when she walks into a room - I am proof of that.
I hear the response before it gets typed here "Hey buddy, either you accept that this is as good as it will ever be while she is on best behavior or else you put your foot down and force her to choose between getting well and leaving you but it's pretty damned clear that you are falling apart trying to be Mr. Understanding and Mr. Responsiible at the same time - pick one".
I really do wonder if she has any concept whatsoever of how much I care about her and how much I love her. I think the only way left to show that is to put the spotlight on full blast and lay all of the facts out in front of a professional and she'll either cave and get help or get defiant and run.
Last time I was so sure that the one slip was 'it' and everyone here rolled their eyes. This time I think there have probably been things I've missed but that she's generally been abstaining and folks roll their eyes... and it occurs to me that something is obvious to everyone in the room other than me.
In hindsight I see a lot of flashing lights that got my spidey senses to perk up but I was afraid that following them would be wrong. In MC last week when I finally explained that the once per week upheaval, the drinking and lying was just wearing me out and I need it to stop... she said maybe we just should not be together because she doesn't want to be the cause of that sort of pain for anyone. I asked her if that was sarcasm - frankly it made me angry - but she said it was sincere.
I still don't know how to take it. ...but coupled with 3-4 occasions where she's mentioned how it would be easier if she were with another alcoholic who could understand so she would not feel so beat up. Well, my first thought was an angry one - something along the lines of "Who would handle the crises then?".
But as I think it over it might have been very sincere. It might be that she is not ready to stay clean and she knows that I am not buying it and she's making plans to find a replacement who is willing to accept it. There would be plenty, men get stupid when she walks into a room - I am proof of that.
I hear the response before it gets typed here "Hey buddy, either you accept that this is as good as it will ever be while she is on best behavior or else you put your foot down and force her to choose between getting well and leaving you but it's pretty damned clear that you are falling apart trying to be Mr. Understanding and Mr. Responsiible at the same time - pick one".
I really do wonder if she has any concept whatsoever of how much I care about her and how much I love her. I think the only way left to show that is to put the spotlight on full blast and lay all of the facts out in front of a professional and she'll either cave and get help or get defiant and run.
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