Has anyone here ever been Step Nined?
Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 326
Originally Posted by Programmatic 
... if my child were killed by an alcoholic's actions it remains my choice and my responsibility for classifying my life as "ruined" or not. No one gets to do that for me unless I let them.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 326
Originally Posted by Programmatic
What purpose is served by holding onto the notion that a debt remains outstanding?
Wrong. The debt was created by the alcoholic and will remain standing until s/he uncreates it. It remains standing even after my death as long as the alcoholic is alive because it is the alcoholic's creation and the alcoholic's responsibility. The debt belongs to the alkie, not to me. And as long as s/he's alive s/he has the debt until and not before s/he discharges it.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 326
Originally Posted by Programmatic
If I knowingly stand to gain from another's amends then I have chosen to put my fullest experience on hold subject to another person's ability to provide it for me.
Premise A can stand without Premise B.
I know A doesn't lead to B, because that's my experience.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 696
I have struggled and struggled with this one myself
I alway's go back and read Alanon Step Number ONE.
That seem's to alway's help me.
Reading Step 9 in Big Blue Book, alway's seem's to help me
And I also wonder: If my XAH made his amends with me...Would it really change anything? - He is who he is. I'm learning to accept that. Somedays are easier
than others.
I have awesome NA/AA friends, who have followed their steps and who have
wanted change and who have a burning desire to live life again. They made amends
and are honest with themselves and others. For me, I may not forget, or completely forgiven, but I have gained respect. That makes it very hard for me, not to compare
them to my XAH and what I expect from him.....Accept and Expect, (two words)
that I constantly remind myself of....
I alway's go back and read Alanon Step Number ONE.
That seem's to alway's help me.
Reading Step 9 in Big Blue Book, alway's seem's to help me
And I also wonder: If my XAH made his amends with me...Would it really change anything? - He is who he is. I'm learning to accept that. Somedays are easier
than others.
I have awesome NA/AA friends, who have followed their steps and who have
wanted change and who have a burning desire to live life again. They made amends
and are honest with themselves and others. For me, I may not forget, or completely forgiven, but I have gained respect. That makes it very hard for me, not to compare
them to my XAH and what I expect from him.....Accept and Expect, (two words)
that I constantly remind myself of....
Member
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Right here, right now!
Posts: 3,424
This has been a really thought provoking thread for me.
This is not directly related, but I was thinking about this thread all last night while listening to Fresh Air on NPR.
The topic was about a Marine how early in the Iraq war was involved in a situation that killed a number of family members of a group of civilians. Many years later he was able to meet with surviving family members and how this went.
I would not have thought that Step 9 and this topic on Fresh Air were comparable prior to this thread, but it discussed themes of forgiveness, expectations and how the soldier would never know if his bullet caused a death, but what an awful experience it was just to be a part of it. How he did not feel as awful at the moment he happened (because he was in denial about it) but after he got some distance he really struggled, developed PTSD etc. I do not want to compare my experiences to the atrocities soldiers are facing (in addition to everyone in war torn or poverty stricken places), but this thread in addition to hearing that expanded my horizons significantly.
Just thanks for opening my eyes and allowing the reality of the world we live in a place. It helped me realize how much more present I am (even when I don't like it).
That for me is what my recovery is for. I am going to ponder on if it would be improve with an apology/amend. More later.
This is not directly related, but I was thinking about this thread all last night while listening to Fresh Air on NPR.
The topic was about a Marine how early in the Iraq war was involved in a situation that killed a number of family members of a group of civilians. Many years later he was able to meet with surviving family members and how this went.
I would not have thought that Step 9 and this topic on Fresh Air were comparable prior to this thread, but it discussed themes of forgiveness, expectations and how the soldier would never know if his bullet caused a death, but what an awful experience it was just to be a part of it. How he did not feel as awful at the moment he happened (because he was in denial about it) but after he got some distance he really struggled, developed PTSD etc. I do not want to compare my experiences to the atrocities soldiers are facing (in addition to everyone in war torn or poverty stricken places), but this thread in addition to hearing that expanded my horizons significantly.
Just thanks for opening my eyes and allowing the reality of the world we live in a place. It helped me realize how much more present I am (even when I don't like it).
That for me is what my recovery is for. I am going to ponder on if it would be improve with an apology/amend. More later.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: right here, right now
Posts: 6,516
I know my truth. I don't need him to validate that for me. And sometimes, I think the 9th step becomes that for many people - being validated. But instead of looking for others for that - find it in yourself. It is much more meaningful that way, anyway.
A jug fills drop by drop
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 6,784
After XABF , I know better now, I won't put my life on hold for anyone, certainly not waiting for amends. I expect not to know anything about XABF and I hope it remains this way.
I read something about death and it helped me move on. I don't remember where I read this, but I decided to believe it. There it says that when you die,
1 You see your life as if it was a movie.
2 You feel your feelings all over again.
3 -And here is the catch- You feel what you made others feel.
So, I imagine him feeling my soul in shreds, crying alone at a park, walking downtown totally confused and heart broken. All those hellish months, the pain, the confusion, the sadness. Yes, if at one moment he feels what he made me feel- THAT would be justice for me...
My gain, thinking XABF has a 'debt with me', is to remember that his abusive behavior towards me, was not something I deserved. I feel this is important, at least for me with a history of abandonment, low self worth and recipient of all kinds of abusive behaviors. It is important for me to remember what he did was wrong. And that my life was not meant to be spent in misery.
I read something about death and it helped me move on. I don't remember where I read this, but I decided to believe it. There it says that when you die,
1 You see your life as if it was a movie.
2 You feel your feelings all over again.
3 -And here is the catch- You feel what you made others feel.
So, I imagine him feeling my soul in shreds, crying alone at a park, walking downtown totally confused and heart broken. All those hellish months, the pain, the confusion, the sadness. Yes, if at one moment he feels what he made me feel- THAT would be justice for me...
My gain, thinking XABF has a 'debt with me', is to remember that his abusive behavior towards me, was not something I deserved. I feel this is important, at least for me with a history of abandonment, low self worth and recipient of all kinds of abusive behaviors. It is important for me to remember what he did was wrong. And that my life was not meant to be spent in misery.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 588
Growing up (non-alcoholic home) we were taught, and it seemed to be supported in media, church, etc. that if you messed up, consciously or unconsciously, you fessed up, apologized and fixed it best you could. It was not a "step", it was just what was expected; the "right" thing to do.
It did not mean I kept tallies of who owed me apologies, or that I judged people, or that I was incomplete in some way for lack of them. I usually never even think about apologies or amends, but I am now because of this thread.
We were also taught not to hold grudges and that to note other people's bad manners was in itself bad manners.
I feel that if I completely release the alcoholics in my life from their obligation in the "mess up/ fess up/ apology & or amend" formula, I am exerting my old codie behaviour of me trying to fix their mess and the notion that I am somehow undeserving.
I am not stating this well. Gosh, it is hard to put emotions down in black and white.
It did not mean I kept tallies of who owed me apologies, or that I judged people, or that I was incomplete in some way for lack of them. I usually never even think about apologies or amends, but I am now because of this thread.
We were also taught not to hold grudges and that to note other people's bad manners was in itself bad manners.
I feel that if I completely release the alcoholics in my life from their obligation in the "mess up/ fess up/ apology & or amend" formula, I am exerting my old codie behaviour of me trying to fix their mess and the notion that I am somehow undeserving.
I am not stating this well. Gosh, it is hard to put emotions down in black and white.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 602
Thanks for all the insights on this thread. I've really found it good reading. (Except stop feeding the codie-troll!)
I like what wellnowwhat's concept of amends just being sort of decent behaviour. As a reserved New England person I have a real aversion to theatrical apologies anyway. Better to do something to make it right.
So for instance if I run over someone's bike--whether I do it because I'm drunk or just out of carelessness--I don't go and whine and cry about how sorry I am. I give them money or a gift certificate for a new bike. And then I leave them alone.
If someone's assaulted me and wants to make amends, they can turn themselves in to the police. If someone's spent my paycheck on booze, they can give me a refund.
But there are some things that can't be made right, like they've just been a total a** to me or wasted years of my life, or (again, for instance) killed a loved one of mine. That can't be amended, it can't be made right. The person isn't worth my mental energy and I'll just get on with being awesome, but amends are not possible. And that's *their* problem. They'd better not expect to contact me to shoot the breeze about how they can make themselves feel better.
I like what wellnowwhat's concept of amends just being sort of decent behaviour. As a reserved New England person I have a real aversion to theatrical apologies anyway. Better to do something to make it right.
So for instance if I run over someone's bike--whether I do it because I'm drunk or just out of carelessness--I don't go and whine and cry about how sorry I am. I give them money or a gift certificate for a new bike. And then I leave them alone.
If someone's assaulted me and wants to make amends, they can turn themselves in to the police. If someone's spent my paycheck on booze, they can give me a refund.
But there are some things that can't be made right, like they've just been a total a** to me or wasted years of my life, or (again, for instance) killed a loved one of mine. That can't be amended, it can't be made right. The person isn't worth my mental energy and I'll just get on with being awesome, but amends are not possible. And that's *their* problem. They'd better not expect to contact me to shoot the breeze about how they can make themselves feel better.
Iceberg Ahead!
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Out at Sea
Posts: 1,177
Some great stuff in this thread from every direction! Amends clearly is hard stuff. Timing is important.
It just seems to me that the person making or thinking of making the amends ought to:
For that other person to have any expectations of amends is a resentment waiting to happen. That doesn't mean that an amend isn't legally or justly due, that it is only for the amender's benefit, that it might not be healing to or welcomed by the other person, or that it would not be appropriate.
It just seems to me that the person making or thinking of making the amends ought to:
* do everything possible to understand how the other person might feel and what it would take to make things right for that other person
* change his or her behavior ("living amends")
* do nothing that knowingly would harm the other person or others (and if further harm is done, that must be amended)
* be as sensitive as possible in making the other appropriate amends, including restitution and mitigating harm
* include no "buts" or finger pointing in the amends (because the other person has already been forgiven, and because it would dilute or destroy the amends)
* listen to the other person and respect the other person (e.g., if they say I am not prepared to forgive you right now, let me think about what would make things right, please leave, or don't contact me again, etc.)
Bear in mind that the person receiving the amends may not be in recovery. That person may be in recovery but not yet have dealt with resentments in Step 4 and/or forgiveness in Step 8. That person may still be suffering the harm caused by the A. That person may be traumatized by the A's resuscitating buried harm. That person does not know if or when amends will be made, or may be totally oblivious.* change his or her behavior ("living amends")
* do nothing that knowingly would harm the other person or others (and if further harm is done, that must be amended)
* be as sensitive as possible in making the other appropriate amends, including restitution and mitigating harm
* include no "buts" or finger pointing in the amends (because the other person has already been forgiven, and because it would dilute or destroy the amends)
* listen to the other person and respect the other person (e.g., if they say I am not prepared to forgive you right now, let me think about what would make things right, please leave, or don't contact me again, etc.)
For that other person to have any expectations of amends is a resentment waiting to happen. That doesn't mean that an amend isn't legally or justly due, that it is only for the amender's benefit, that it might not be healing to or welcomed by the other person, or that it would not be appropriate.
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