dandylion

4my2girls. I am going to ask of you one thing. PLEASE, PLEASE, keep an open mind until you have at least examined the suggestions that are being offered. Consider each piece a POTENTIALLY valid idea for at least 15min. before completely rejecting it.

Truly, I get what you are saying about the courts having bias. About protective service getting the wrong angle and running with it. These things have happened--we have all seen it in the media or heard of some personal experience.

HOWEVER, do consider how much lack of accurate information, poor legal representation, LACK OF DOCUMENTATION, not knowing how to become proactive, etc... may have played into these unfortunate cases. Not all cases turn out like this!!!
Don't cut off all your potential solutions just because this or that happened in somebody else's situation.

Please get advice, before you go any further, from a family lawyer with a bunch of experience and a solid reputation. This is so key---you don't know everything there is to know about the way to manuever. Even lawyers get lawyers---and, they always get the best.

Second, go to some consultations with a CHILD or FAMILY therapist/psychologist and discuss your ideas of how this is impacting the kids. Find out which ones are helpful and which ones need to be modified in light of this very obvious abuse. Don't ever have to look back and say "I didn't realize".

I hear that you love your girls---so please do these things for their sake.

For your sake---keep posting. This community is pretty straight shooting. Collectively, we have seen or experienced it all. Our only motive is to help you. Many have lived in homes with what you described, and have a debth of understanding that you will not find anywhere else. Same goes for alanon/alateen.

Start journaling every event in great detail. Get lawyers advice about how to do it. Those with the best documentation do the best in court---I don't have to be a lawyer to know this!

I is a blessing that you have come here. Hang on, baby!

dandylion

Katiekate

Beating up on a 14 year old is a far more important issue than what a freaking alcoholic may or may not do or think.

Who cares, your daughter is in her sights, not sure why this is not the major issue here.

Not very eloquently written, sorry, but really???? You are worried what your wife may think if you go to al anon. This is not a game, your daughter is not a punching bag for an alcoholic.

It only gets worse from here.

GettingBy

I grew up in an alcoholic home where the standard method of dealing with anger was to explode... verbally and physically. Shouting and throwing the nearest object let people know that you were pissed off. Slapping and hair pulling - a given.

That was my norm growing up. That was the lesson my parents behavior taught me. My dad would fly off the handle and mom stood by doing nothing... And vice versa.

As I got older, I saw myself acting out my anger as well. It was horrible.... But even worse when I saw my own children now doing the same thing. Both my ex and I were ragers... So why wouldnt they? I wanted it to stop. I started changing my behavior but my x didn't. Life got a little better - but the kids still raged bc they had a daily model to learn from.

Maybe you are not comfortable with CPS, I understand that feeling. It took me a Long time to get to that boundary. We take recovery one step at a time.... Maybe the first step is thinking about different choices that could be made when your wife is in rage mode? Can you take the girls and go some place away from her? Anything you do to protect them, will show them you care and that the raging behvior is unacceptable.

Lulu39

My eldest son is 14. His drunken father has recently decided that he can speak to the child as if they are both drunken drug addicted men.

My 14 year old son has started to speak up and tell his father that he does not agree. It's only a matter of time until drunken drug addicted daddy tries to do something else rather than verbally biffo with my kids. He keeps on saying: "I'm better, stronger, faster". Thing is, he isn't. LOL!

My kids train at martial arts 3 times a week. If "daddy" tries to go them physically when he is drunk they will beat his arse.

Take your girls with you to martial arts training as a start. Martial arts is not only physical, it's mental strength.

Which martial art do you train in? We are partial to Kyokushin Karate - it's the best

m1k3

4my2girls, I am going to address just this one point. The answer is, you can't. The only person who can is your wife. She will either choose to get better or she won't.

This is based on my experience going through almost exactly the same thing as you. I can't tell you what to do as each situation is unique. I can tell you that I was powerless to control my wife, her drinking, her pill abuse or any of that. As for your wife's condition someone posted this earlier but I am going to repeat it. It is the 3 c's.

I didn't cause it.
I can't control it.
I can't cure it.

Simply as that. I found the only thing I could control was how I choose to react to the situation. I'm glad you have decided to go to Al-anon. I found it was a life saver for me. I know from experience that these are terrible times you are going through right now.

((((hugs))))

Your friend,

Florence

You're maintaining a household where your children are in danger of being physically attacked at any given time, and they have no way of escaping from you and your wife's dysfunction OTHER than to get the government involved via CPS. It's a matter of time.

Men end up with custody from unfit mothers ALL THE TIME. All the time. Drug courts have seen it all. I think you've blown up these exceptional stories to have a reason not to leave, but by doing so, you're keeping your girls in danger. This will affect them FAR more than a divorce ever could.

AlwaysGrowing

4my2girls

Situations like this hit home. It just sucks to have to be in that position of picking a side when it is your wife on one side and kids on the other.. As you already know the kids safety should come first. Your wife is old enough to make choices. You can not and will not be able to make her sober. You can try and maybe influence a day here, a week here but reality it is just YOU trying to CONTROL another.

I understand you don't want a divorce. I get that. I would get advice from one of video taping, audio recording (smart phone), and journaling to document all this. Doesn't mean you will HAVE to use it but when it comes down to the court we men have an 80% uphill battle. We become the reason and the person who will be the enemy of the drinker. Just how this thing progresses.

Alanon will help you understand and educate you. At that point with enough info you can have more peace (yourself). The situation may get worse or better. Alanon helps with a way to cope.

The percent of people in recovery who don't ever drink again is small. Being generous from what I have experienced in my 20 years and read is less than 7%. That being said she maybe one of those 7%.. The real question is if she is when will that be.. Could be 6 months, could be 20 years.

My wife died from addiction. My kids about your kids age. He going after my oldest did have issues which affected him. Being bullied by one who is to protect you is.... well... you get the idea. Take care of 1) You, 2) kids, 3) Her by taking care of number 1 and 2 as she is unable to.

Praying for you!
AG

marie1960

I did not imply that YOU call CPS. I stated that if your daughter confides in a friend, this could be a possible outcome, kids are taught in our Michigan schools to report abuse at an early age.

Presently, you are living in fear. Fear is not logic. I have to agree, video tape these outbursts of rage. I believe your wife's actions will provide you with enough evidence to sink her battleship.

Kids are a product of their enviroment, do you want your girls to grow up thinking this is an acceptable way to live? We lead by example.

Dr. Phil says it best: " Kids would rather come from a broken home than live in one."

I know you have your kids best interest at heart, now it's time to make a plan to get you and them to a better place.

BlueSkies1

Now wait just a minute, lol...we have Snyder in office.
Ok, back on point. getting the MI view of life as I'm not far from you, let's look at where power really lies.
That 14 year old has power and she doesn't know it. I did too as a 14 year old in MI playing the clarinet...many moons ago, but I had no idea. At 14, if you were to divorce, she simply would tell the courts that her mother hits her, that she wants to live with her dad, that her mother drinks daily, has a horrible temper, etc., and bingo, yes, in MI, she would get to live with the parent she prefers.
talk to a lawyer should you ever consider separation and you will see this is so.
Threatened my dad I would call CPS if he didn't put that belt away when going after my younger siblings, and he did put it away. He knew I was serious.
Point being, 3 people definitely have more power than 1.
You can start empowering each of you, separately, and together, by attending alanon. The 14 year old is definitely old enough for alateen. I wouldn't wait to encourage her to attend meetings, she may need them more than you do. That's a very confused young woman you have on your hands that would really benefit from realizing she has more power in her life.
Your wife may get angry that you two attend meetings. Then again, she might just get embarrassed also, which would be a good kick in the pants without ever having to lift a foot.
Her behavior is unacceptable and she needs to see that you are going to do something about it.
Alanon is perfect because it is for you and your daughter, and your wife will have a hard time making a case against it. calling a spade a spade is just too darn bad for her, she can't win.
take back your power...start doing so with alanon.
p.s. gave up the clarinet and the straight A's because he convinced me that I had no power, and mom did nothing.

Learn2Live

If a complete stranger came off the street, entered your house, and beat the crap out of your daughter, what would you do?

It is your responsibility to call the police when this person assaults you or your children or anyone else for that matter. You allowing her to beat YOU up tells her it is OK to beat people up, including these children. Your refusal to act appropriately regarding this dictates that the child has to physically defend herself in her own home. Nothing changes if nothing changes.

SparkleKitty

Growing up in a home with an alcoholic mother (who went through a hysterectomy when I was 17) and a co-dependent father, I sympathize with your girls. They are learning lessons in your home that will stay with them for the rest of their lives. They need at least one parent who is making the decisions that truly put them and their needs first.

Because I couldn't fix my mother, I grew up believing that I couldn't do anything. That no one could possibly ever love me. It was clear that the priority in our household was to make sure Mom was happy. So anything I needed or wanted had to come second to that. I would give anything to be able to go back in time and tell my father that we needed him to make different choices than the ones he made.

I went through one broken marriage, a relationship with an alcoholic, and 5 years of therapy to come out the other side of my childhood. I am not saying any of that will happen to your girls, but I would consider that even beyond the physical abuse (!!) things may be happening to them that you (and they) are not conscious of at this time.

I wish you strength and courage as you navigate this incredibly difficult time.

Tuffgirl

First, have you already met with an attorney to discuss your options? You've made a lot of definitive statements above as if you know because you have already talked with the courts, the police, and your state's CPS office. But if you haven't, then this is all magical thinking on your part, and that's your own denial at play.

Secondly, to answer the question above, the answer is very simple. One can either remove whatever it is that is causing the family to spin out of control or one can accept and find peace with it, hence bringing some sense of control back to the family.

Lastly, menopause doesn't make people alcoholics, nor does it make otherwise sane women crazy and attack their children.

FireSprite

The other SR members have already given you great advice, I just wanted to point our that men DO manage to get full custody at times when everything is properly documented. One of our own just updated us a few weeks ago that he was able to get full custody. I'm not saying it was easy, but he did it!

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...y-chances.html

PohsFriend

I understand your paranoia and concern regarding the courts. Having had custody of a daughter for 16 years I can tell you that yes, the courts tend to favor women a great deal.

BUT... there are things you should know.

1. Abuse in our society is an overwhelmingly decisive criteria in custody cases. Abuse directed by one parent toward the other is considered the same as abuse by that parent toward the child. Your state lists abuse among it's criteria for determining the best interests of the child.

2. You should consult with a family law attorney regarding the preference of the children, assuming that it would be their preference to be with you. Your state lists this as a criteria if the court deems the children to be of sufficient age.

3. Starting today you must go get a notebook and document all past instances of abuse. I don't give a crap if you are a martial artist - if someone hits you that is not acceptable. You can buy a "spy pen" just google it. For less than $100 you can have that running in your pocket when the addict is beligerent and document everything. YOU MUST. This item is around $100 for a really good one with audio in HD for crying out loud. YOU MUST DO THIS. Defending yourself against false allegations of abuse is around $50-100K.

4. Setup an individual bank account right now and have your checks deposited there. Transfer money to the joint account and an account for her. I am not saying to control her with money but if she is bouncing checks then you must to protect yourself, the kids and her from her disease.

5. If there is another incident of violence you need to record it and once you do then you need to file charges and seek a protective order immediately. Not a restraining order, these are very different. Violating a restraining order is often ignored and the police can't enforce it - it is a matter for the judge. A protective order has teeth, violate it and the police can and will arrest the violater on the spot.

OK so context.... I was a single dad for many years with custody of a daughter. I dealt with an ex who was belligerent and had an uncontrollable temper and did everything you can think of. She withheld the child across state lines claiming abuse, she was arrested for assaulting me after trying to go through me to get to the child, she had a divorce attorney as her roomie in mental hospital....

I will not tell you that the system is fair, ties go to mom, 60-40 goes to mom and the parasitic court culture (IE, the court appointed ad-litems, the social workers who do social study, many of the shrinks who do the psych evals, the counselors and mediators... these tend to be people who lean the way you are afraid of and you cannot change their bias but you need to understand that bias will not overcome clear and compelling evidence. The professionals in the system have a bias but most do not wake up looking for a man to go Bobbit on. Most are well meaning and they hate abuse and hate the ravages of addiction. They may hold their nose while recommending that your girls be with you but they will recommend it.

You need to start documenting everything right now and you need to talk to an attorney. If you can't afford one then you need to talk to Fathers for Equal Rights. They will point you to local resources. I won pro-se more than once. It sucks, my kid is fine.

Now a note of caution.... OK, Mom's addiction is violent and irrational. One thing I have had to admit and accept since arriving here to better understand my wife's addiction is that if you are married to an addict who behaves as you describe then you have issues too. Al-Anon will help you understand them and help you overcome them. I just started. So - what could mom say about you? What would your daughters say about the situation? I am not asking what is true, I am asking what they would say if asked.

So I did not say your wife is violent and irrational, I said that her addiction is. I have to seperate the two because I hate the disease and love the host. Food for thought.

You are angry and indignant and frightened and you should be, that is all normal. I suspect that you are also fearful of what taking action would do to her. Your fear that she will be outraged if you seek help is clear evidence that you have issues too. Me too, not dogging you :-)

But you are not responsible for her actions. You did not cause, cannot cure and cannot control her addiction or her emotions. Be kind, be respectful, be honest and speak from you heart and do what you know to be the right thing and if she is outraged then that is on her, not you. It is not your problem.

A side note.... I did not enjoy building a case against my daughter's mom. I did not enjoy having to take her apart in the courtroom. I was very much afraid that in doing so I would break whatever sanity was left in her and that bothered me. My ex was not an addict, she had/has mental issues. Today they are better and she gets to spend time with our daughter.

So, do not misinterpret my suggestions to mean that I think you should go punish your wife. My suggestion to you is that you are in an intolerable situation that is harming you and training your daughters to lead a similar life and it is your responsibility as a man, husband, and father to put an end to that insanity. The current situation is untenable, having her take the girls and go shack up with another actively using addict would be untenable. If you are sober and capable of taking care of the girls then you need to wrap your head around the fact that the truth needs to come out and you need to document the truth.

So say that she does assault you or the children again. While your state has a presumption that joint custody is preferable, abuse trumps all. Domestic Violence is not tolerated anywhere in the US in 2012. You will almost surely 'win'. Now what does that mean? does it mean that mom loses her kids? No. It means that you would have some control over the situation and be able to protect your children. Mom would likely be ordered to undergo a psych eval (as would you) and if she is violent and actively addicted then it is likely that she would have supervised or strictly defined conditions for her time with the children. Things like no men, no booze, breathalyzer switch on the car etcetera. Your 14 year old is old enough to call 911 if things are not going the way they are supposed to. She would need to, not you.

A final thought: Once I 'won' I handed my ex what was effectively a tie. I have never sought child support or even asked her to pay her half of bills she should. I have never enforced the conditions of our custody agreement. I have almost always said yes when she has requested a change to the schedule in her favor.

...but if she breaks down again and is unstable then I can pull the plug and take over immediately. My daughter is old enough now that while still subject to the courts, the courts don't tell a 17 year old what to do absent good cause if they prefer to be in one home over the other and my 17 year old found her voice when she was 13 and explained to the judge and assorted court appointed lackeys who feed off the multi-billion dollar divorce industry "Hey, I love my mom but she is not well, I asked my dad to help. Dad is the one I have always counted on and is the one who is always there and I asked for this, he is just doing what I asked and getting punished and lied about for helping me!" That was that.

I'll say it a last time. You can no longer afford to stay in this situation. You need that camera. Your inclination is likely true - she is provoking you. You may nbot have spoken to an attorney and your fear/ignorance of family law may not be shared by her. She may have consulted an attorney and may know that hitting DD was a huge mistake. If you hit her, or if she hits you and then whacks her face against the doorjam and calls 911 then your fears are dead on - she will get the kids, your 401K will be a 200.5 and you will be paying child support and alimony from a crappy apartment while she drinks and wrecks the kids.

...Your call. Hope you don't take offense to my direct and blunt and bossy warning but I have been there and done that for 16 years. Go to al-anon and talk to Fathers for Equal Rights. If you have issues, fix them. Get the camera and a notebook and document eveything. Protect yourself financially by opening an account she can't simply sweep. Do it today, not tomorrow.

4my2girls

My gratitude goes out to all of you especially Posfriend, great advice!

Woke up with a wonderfull headache this morning, yeah!

I dont know why I never thought of busting out the video camera to document her foolishness. You can bet I will have that baby at the ready from now on.

Update, this morning she tells me that its over! The drinking that is. She says shes tired of all the problems that come from it. She says she does it like a rebellious teenager just to **** me off. HA! Hows that for a logical reason. Says she wants to get a job too! Wonders never cease! So I am encouraging her on this path but not expecting much to come of it. Maybe she jumped on here and read what is going on this morning after hearing me type it up last night.

I now am making a log of her actions using a calander and have the video camera at the ready!

Also someone asked why I hate women? cmon thats crazy. I knew something like that would eventually fly at me. I have a wife, 2 girls, 2 female cats and 9 hens. Thats 14 to 1. I love women period! I just dont agree with all the emotional baggage that seems to come pre loaded with their operating system lol

Also someone asked what kind of martial arts do I practice, That would be Jeet Kune Do. Which is basically a mix of what works in the real world.

Again my thanks goes out to all of you. you all rock! Will be providing updates and checking in daily. This is a great place!

steve11694

I recall my AW also becoming tough like a man, actually learning to speak like the low level drunks in the bars she hung out in. Its an unbelievable thing to go through. Whatever you do, dont try to analyze it searching for logic. There is none, the brain is fried.

m1k3

JKD, good stuff. I did Brazilian Jiu Jitsu for about six years until age finally caught up with me. It was the submission grappling side of it, I hate wearing gi's. Got to the low end of the intermediate level. Good fun but just too hard on the joints.

I have to admit that nothing focuses your attention better than having someone crawling up your back with the intent to choke you unconscious.

Your friend,

BlueSkies1

Ah, if only men could only the beneficial part of women's hormones...
That's dreaming buddy. LOL

PohsFriend

I bolded a couple things for you to think over.

Let me suggest to you that you read a book by John Gottman called ...what is it, Seven Principles for a Happy Marriage or something like that.

The things I bolded kinda scream CONTEMPT! and that is a normal thing after so much strife, it also causes divorces.

So I totally get the "wonders Never Cease" feeling or your dismissal of her desire to quit drinking until you see some evidence.

But...

Take a breath, think this through. Your response to her right now should not be HA! About time you listened!

If you want to help her and yourself and your kids the right response right now would be to sit down with her and tell her that you are really glad to hear that she wants to quit drinking and get a job. You said her drinking and bouncing checks had hurt the family. She said basically that she knows this and wants to change it.

She probably won't come out and say that and won't tell you that she has been to blame for all of the problems or anything else you'd love to hear but what she is saying is big. Take it at face value, do NOT be sarcastic or roll your eyes and say things like Wonders Never Cease. ...Hopefully that's you being pissed and venting and in front of her you are warm and smushy. We all talk a good game ;-)

Show some gratitude. If you mean it and can say it, how cool would it be if you went home tonight and said "Honey, it meant a lot to me this morning when you said you want to quit drinking and help out with the finances, thank you!. I've been thinking today and there are some things I need to work on like X, Y and Z. I don't like the way we have been fighting and I want things to get better and I care about you so I was thinking maybe we could go find a marriage counselor together and work together on making things better for ourselves and the kids... what do you think?".

I know that is hard. Last night my lovely RAW read all the things I posted here when I was upset and replies from others that stung her and she unloaded on me. I was angry and indignant and felt unjustly accused and I wanted to lash out... instead I took a deep breath, let her know how sorry I was that she was hurting and reiterated my commitment to working harder on MYSELF and spending less time worrying about what she's doing. I will actually do a post on that one but my point is... when someone knows that you could rub their face in something and you have the grace and patience to swallow your pride and apologize instead it can be powerful. I don''t mean as a form of passive aggression where you can say "See, you were a jerk and I was nice, insert judgment and shame here".

Keep breathing, reading, thinking and count to ten before you respond.

Oh, one other thing. The recorder is insurance, it is not for you to set her up so you can nail her with the evidence. Hope and pray that the only thing it records is the beginning of your reconcilliation and not the end of your marriage. Being right is not nearly as satisfying as being happy.

Good luck, go to that al-anon meeting. See if your first one helps as much as mine did.

steve11694

Actually there is a % of men that do indeed benefit from women's hormones.
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Google "transgender"