The Way They Think
To thine own self be true.
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 5,924
The Way They Think
I believe that we often attribute too much of the problems we have with the alcoholics and addicts in our lives to the actual substance they abuse, or the disease of addiction, or to their "mental health issues," or their "horrible childhood." I believe we overlook the fact that so many people are just disturbed and dysfunctional when we search for the reasons, "Why?" Lots of us here often say in response to a poster, "It does not matter why," which I believe is true. I've been reading more of Dr. George Simon's books, and am now reading "Character Disturbance," and have come across my feelings about this topic, in Dr. Simon's words. I'd like to share:
Disturbed characters don't act the way most people do largely because they generally don't think the way others do. They often don't hold the same values, harbor the same attitudes, share the same core beliefs, as most folks. Their way of thinking is marked by a "distorted" view of reality and an impoverished sense of accountability.
How disturbed characters think is always reflected in the ways they act. Their ways of thinking can also be discerned from the things they say, but to a much lesser extent. That's because the things they say don't necessarily reflect beliefs they hold with genuine conviction. This is a very important fact to remember.
...what they say does not necessarily reveal how they really think. Sometimes they say things to make other people believe that they think a certain way, as a manipulation technique. In reality, their behavior is a much more reliable indicator of their true thoughts and attitudes. So, corrective treatment programs largely based on "challenging" strictly verbally espoused beliefs, and then "teaching" alternative ways of thinking (MY NOTE: e.g., marriage counseling), are not likely to be successful.
How disturbed characters think is always reflected in the ways they act. Their ways of thinking can also be discerned from the things they say, but to a much lesser extent. That's because the things they say don't necessarily reflect beliefs they hold with genuine conviction. This is a very important fact to remember.
...what they say does not necessarily reveal how they really think. Sometimes they say things to make other people believe that they think a certain way, as a manipulation technique. In reality, their behavior is a much more reliable indicator of their true thoughts and attitudes. So, corrective treatment programs largely based on "challenging" strictly verbally espoused beliefs, and then "teaching" alternative ways of thinking (MY NOTE: e.g., marriage counseling), are not likely to be successful.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: PA
Posts: 21
Thanks for this. I've been going in circles lately... coming to the conclusion, "well, maybe he's just a jerk (actually that's not the word I used but I don't want to offend anyone!)" It's still hard to accept - how/why would someone just +be+ mean? For so long I thought if I just got him sober, and let him know that he was very mistaken in some areas of how to care for a wife, then he'd be like, oh, thanks! I didn't know that! and everything would be good. Actually, no. Maybe he is just a crappy husband?
Thanks to everybody who posts- I get a lot of comfort reading them.
Thanks to everybody who posts- I get a lot of comfort reading them.
To thine own self be true.
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 5,924
I know what you mean dodecaphonic. I have been hurting some today over the fact that AXBF was just so mean, so cruel. And I did nothing to deserve that kind of treatment. Should I sit around and try to figure out why? Or try to get him into therapy? Or couples counseling? Or dig into his past for all the hurt he must have experienced as a child to cause him to hurt me the way he has? Try to teach him how to be a good BF? I think not. And Dr Simon agrees. We can tell them until we are blue in the face, but they already KNOW what we want them to do. They just don't agree. But will say whatever comes to mind to get us to think that they DO agree and are "working on it." When in reality they just don't give a damn what we want or need.
So, so tired of the hurt.
So, so tired of the hurt.
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Dallas, Texas
Posts: 82
Wow, I wonder which is harder....hoping that AH stops drinking and becomes normal in a way society can recognize and embrace, or realizing AH will never come close to that definition. I have given him the benefit of the doubt, but by reading what you have been posting, my doubt has no benefit now. Thanks for sharing.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: PA
Posts: 21
Sanity2012 - I don't think all hope is necessarily lost. I just know that for a long time I myself ascribed behaviors and attitudes to his drinking that maybe weren't caused by it. A counselor told me about how one of her patients had an elderly alcoholic mother who was just horrible, an intolerably awful person. They finally got the lady into detox and she quit drinking - and she was still just a horrible, awful person. For my AH I think it's not that he's BAD, but he's broken, and part of the brokenness is he has no empathy. In his case I don't think there is any fixing that. Thanks for letting me share!
To thine own self be true.
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 5,924
You're right, no one is saying they are bad people. No moral judgments necessary. What Dr Simon is saying is the same as many folks here say, to pay more attention to their behaviors and not their words. Here at SR we often say, "If you tell them more than once, you're controlling," and it's true. You only need to tell them once. They hear you, they know what you want, they may even agree. But look at their actions, does it seem they care?
But don't get me started about their lack of empathy. I've also been reading about psychopaths and it seems their lack of empathy is a key component of psychopathy! It makes me wonder if alcoholism and drug addiction can actually cause psychopathy!
But don't get me started about their lack of empathy. I've also been reading about psychopaths and it seems their lack of empathy is a key component of psychopathy! It makes me wonder if alcoholism and drug addiction can actually cause psychopathy!
Member
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: rural Germany
Posts: 311
Interesting. I was just thinking that more likely it is people who are born psychopaths who have an increased tendency towards addiction. Since a psychopath doesn't really feel much emotion and has no empathy, then it would seem obvious that they would try drugs and alcohol just to feel something. And without the experience of feeling various degrees of emotion from birth like most people, they would tend to misidentify any feelings or even jump to extreme highs or lows through the use of amplifiers like drugs or alcohol.
I do not accept the theory that simply drinking a whole lot of alcohol over a prolonged time will turn a man (or woman) into an abusive, cheating, lying, manipulative monster. Like the old woman in dodecaphonic's example above, take away the alcohol and you still would have an abusive, cheating, lying and manipulative monster. There would just no longer be the handy excuse of alcohol to blame.
There are two layers to denial. The outer layer is denial of a drinking problem. But the inner layer of denial has to do with recognizing the essential personality beneath the public persona. Alcohol doesn't change the personality. It just strips away the artificial veneer of civilisation which the monster learned to exhibit in childhood in order to fit in. In people who aren't monsters, then it still removes inhibitions and affects judgement.
Either that, or my experience with my husband is some sort of weird and special exception. He was never a monster while sober, and wasn't a monster while drunk. More like a "Rip Van Winkle".
I do not accept the theory that simply drinking a whole lot of alcohol over a prolonged time will turn a man (or woman) into an abusive, cheating, lying, manipulative monster. Like the old woman in dodecaphonic's example above, take away the alcohol and you still would have an abusive, cheating, lying and manipulative monster. There would just no longer be the handy excuse of alcohol to blame.
There are two layers to denial. The outer layer is denial of a drinking problem. But the inner layer of denial has to do with recognizing the essential personality beneath the public persona. Alcohol doesn't change the personality. It just strips away the artificial veneer of civilisation which the monster learned to exhibit in childhood in order to fit in. In people who aren't monsters, then it still removes inhibitions and affects judgement.
Either that, or my experience with my husband is some sort of weird and special exception. He was never a monster while sober, and wasn't a monster while drunk. More like a "Rip Van Winkle".
To thine own self be true.
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 5,924
I don't know whether alcohol can CAUSE someone to become physically abusive or not, but they do seem to go hand in hand. I think it's a moot point though. If you are in a relationship with an alcoholic and he or she is physically abusive, it does not MATTER what causes them to be physically abusive. What matters is that you need to stop looking for the reason WHY and get the hell out of there.
I do know that drinking alcohol lowers a person's inhibitions, and can also make otherwise calm people angry and physically violent. I've witnessed it in my own parent.
Someone here posted an article a few weeks ago, which I read, and copied this from:
And I agree. They DO lose integrity and begin to do things they normally would not do. Otherwise "good" people turn rotten. They become different people. They stop placing importance on things that previously were important to them. There is no doubt in my mind that over time, alcohol CHANGES people. It's the progressive nature of the disease, and it always gets worse, not better.
I do know that drinking alcohol lowers a person's inhibitions, and can also make otherwise calm people angry and physically violent. I've witnessed it in my own parent.
Someone here posted an article a few weeks ago, which I read, and copied this from:
An addict's primary loyalty is not to the relationship, it's to the addiction. Active addicts become cheaper versions of themselves and lose integrity or the ability to do the right thing when it's hard. Those are the very qualities in a partner you need to lean on.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 3,443
Thank you for the thread.
Hypatia, my ex was not a monster either. He wasn't mean or cruel. He was manipulative though and still is. He can be 'mean' in that sense because it hurts me and he knows it but he is not verbally or physically abusive. He is not a psychopath. He has some ethics and morals that he lives by although I do agree with the points made about integrity.
That definition that L2L posted on disturbed character really really fits though. It is so subtle when there are no big flags. There was no yelling, no hitting, no cheating, no verbal abuse in our relationship. We did not argue because we'd talk and he say all the right things. It felt like we were coming together and agreeing on things, sharing goals, building a life/future, etc., but he never ever followed through with any of it. His actions never matched and it took me so long to work all that out.
I'm not even sure he has insight on that. The fact that he simply saw the world through a different lens became more and more clear when things got more serious and we saw a counselor a couple of times. He would make statements that directly contradicted each other. He saw things through a different lens and simply did not have the ability to spin anything to see it from another angle or give consideration to my input. Real conversations (where he didn't just agree with me) were impossible because he'd simply make his statements over and over - he didn't respond to my input. How can there be a conversation if he one person doesn't take in, consider, and respond to the other person's input? I blamed it on the alcoholism at the time but with a little more clarity I really think that is just who he is and how he interacts with/views the world. Impoverished sense of accountability is an understatement....and so extremely self-focused.
L2L the question of empathy is a good one. I'm very resistant to thinking my ex has no empathy but I have to admit that it does seem to be extremely difficult for him to move past his own thoughts/feelings and try and identify someone else's. I don't know if I have many/any examples of where he has done that. He isn't cruel, and thank god for that or he would be a monster.
He loves his kids. I know that. I'm not sure he empathizes with them all that much. His feelings for them seem to always be hinged on how the relationship is affecting him (with no sense of the fact that he is the one with the power to change it). He misses them and is always rambling on about how hard it is on him. He has never once said anything about how it might be affecting them. The only time he's indicated it might be hard on them is if he is using it as a weapon against me. I've ruined their life and all that.
When we lived together and they would get hurt it would scare him. He cares for them and obviously doesn't want them hurt but he felt anxious/afraid when they were hurt and his reaction was about him, not them. He did not rush in to comfort/attend to them. He would scold them. He didn't relate/react to their hurt, he reacted to how it made him feel. He takes them fishing, hunting, and golfing because he likes that. One of them took Taekwondo for a year, which he has no interest in. He did not go to a single event for that. He didn't say anything bad about it, and was encouraging when it was talked about, but his actions did not follow.
Lots to think about. I have two children that are so naturally empathetic and it shows...and two not so much. When you see it through innocent children - it is so stark. I really do think that lots of what I blamed on alcoholism is just who my ex is as a person - and it isn't a good fit for me so I know I made the right decision. Even though he is sober now I have no regrets.
Hypatia, my ex was not a monster either. He wasn't mean or cruel. He was manipulative though and still is. He can be 'mean' in that sense because it hurts me and he knows it but he is not verbally or physically abusive. He is not a psychopath. He has some ethics and morals that he lives by although I do agree with the points made about integrity.
That definition that L2L posted on disturbed character really really fits though. It is so subtle when there are no big flags. There was no yelling, no hitting, no cheating, no verbal abuse in our relationship. We did not argue because we'd talk and he say all the right things. It felt like we were coming together and agreeing on things, sharing goals, building a life/future, etc., but he never ever followed through with any of it. His actions never matched and it took me so long to work all that out.
I'm not even sure he has insight on that. The fact that he simply saw the world through a different lens became more and more clear when things got more serious and we saw a counselor a couple of times. He would make statements that directly contradicted each other. He saw things through a different lens and simply did not have the ability to spin anything to see it from another angle or give consideration to my input. Real conversations (where he didn't just agree with me) were impossible because he'd simply make his statements over and over - he didn't respond to my input. How can there be a conversation if he one person doesn't take in, consider, and respond to the other person's input? I blamed it on the alcoholism at the time but with a little more clarity I really think that is just who he is and how he interacts with/views the world. Impoverished sense of accountability is an understatement....and so extremely self-focused.
L2L the question of empathy is a good one. I'm very resistant to thinking my ex has no empathy but I have to admit that it does seem to be extremely difficult for him to move past his own thoughts/feelings and try and identify someone else's. I don't know if I have many/any examples of where he has done that. He isn't cruel, and thank god for that or he would be a monster.
He loves his kids. I know that. I'm not sure he empathizes with them all that much. His feelings for them seem to always be hinged on how the relationship is affecting him (with no sense of the fact that he is the one with the power to change it). He misses them and is always rambling on about how hard it is on him. He has never once said anything about how it might be affecting them. The only time he's indicated it might be hard on them is if he is using it as a weapon against me. I've ruined their life and all that.
When we lived together and they would get hurt it would scare him. He cares for them and obviously doesn't want them hurt but he felt anxious/afraid when they were hurt and his reaction was about him, not them. He did not rush in to comfort/attend to them. He would scold them. He didn't relate/react to their hurt, he reacted to how it made him feel. He takes them fishing, hunting, and golfing because he likes that. One of them took Taekwondo for a year, which he has no interest in. He did not go to a single event for that. He didn't say anything bad about it, and was encouraging when it was talked about, but his actions did not follow.
Lots to think about. I have two children that are so naturally empathetic and it shows...and two not so much. When you see it through innocent children - it is so stark. I really do think that lots of what I blamed on alcoholism is just who my ex is as a person - and it isn't a good fit for me so I know I made the right decision. Even though he is sober now I have no regrets.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Chicago area
Posts: 4,269
Originally Posted by Learn2Live 
I believe that we often attribute too much of the problems we have with the alcoholics and addicts in our lives to the actual substance they abuse, or the disease of addiction, or to their "mental health issues," or their "horrible childhood."
I believe many of us become expert at rationalizing unacceptable behaviors instead of creating and maintaining boundaries to protect ourselves the chaos.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,349
I think Thumper married my dad, lol. He was just like that. My mom said it was like being married to a mushroom. He loved us(the kids), but wasn't interested in our lives unless it somehow included or affected him. If I was sick, he'd avoid me like the plague. Not because he was germ phobic but because he didn't know how to comfort us. When my sister was diagnosed with leukemia when she was 5, my dad broke down in front of me and it was the start of his slow track through alcohol abuse.
As for my AH, i am finally learning to look at his actions instead of listening to his words. His words will always tell me what I want to hear if I ask for it. For now, I'm not even asking for anything from him verbally and it's killing him because he knows he's stuck with his actions.
As for my AH, i am finally learning to look at his actions instead of listening to his words. His words will always tell me what I want to hear if I ask for it. For now, I'm not even asking for anything from him verbally and it's killing him because he knows he's stuck with his actions.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: right here, right now
Posts: 6,516
I do not accept the theory that simply drinking a whole lot of alcohol over a prolonged time will turn a man (or woman) into an abusive, cheating, lying, manipulative monster.
But all the things that could be explained by "people with certain dysfunctions becoming addicts" can also be explained by "addiction causing brain damage that leads to certain dysfunctions"...
I think the problem we run into when we're trying to understand and explain the behaviors of addicts is that we're applying rational thinking to an irrational phenomenon. And what is the cause and what the effect matters less.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 6,262
Terrific post! I'm a recovering alcoholic in my 21st year. The big mistake people make is assuming all alcoholics are alike. No more than codependents. A lot depends on how long and how much someone drank alcoholically. There are characteristics of active alcoholics -- grandiosity, enormous ego with low self esteem, self-will, and a bunch of other things. What happens is when people drink daily for a while, their honesty and character go out the window. They stop taking responsibility for themselves, are deluded, full of denial and frequently rage. For an alcoholic booze is their higher power, God, the most important thing in their lives. Enablers are critical because it's very tough to function without them and allows them to continue. Personally I don't think active alcoholics are capable of love, the reason why the majority of shrinks and therapists won't treat them until they become sober.
In AA literature it says "drinking was but a symptom. Another way of saying it "if you take the alcohol away from a drunken horse thief you have a horse thief". I also love "you can't turn a pickle back into a cucumber" -- the recovering alcoholic will never go back to being the person he was before drinking.
So alcoholics stop drinking and they are very screwed up. By working the 12 Steps and therapy a great deal changes. They learn that they are responsible for everything they have ever done or said; to make amends; to lead an honest life. Those who are willing to let go of ego and very motivated do change.
In AA literature it says "drinking was but a symptom. Another way of saying it "if you take the alcohol away from a drunken horse thief you have a horse thief". I also love "you can't turn a pickle back into a cucumber" -- the recovering alcoholic will never go back to being the person he was before drinking.
So alcoholics stop drinking and they are very screwed up. By working the 12 Steps and therapy a great deal changes. They learn that they are responsible for everything they have ever done or said; to make amends; to lead an honest life. Those who are willing to let go of ego and very motivated do change.
Bunnies!
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,905
My mother (by all accounts-- she was already 11 years into drinking before I came along) has always been sort of helpless, needy, whiny, self-important, etc. She's vicious when she's drinking, but she's not all that much better when you get her sobered up. The only difference now is that her helplessness is more physically and mentally REAL because of the damage she's done to herself with alcohol. Her mental and physical health is failing rapidly. I really don't think she was ever "normal" in the sense of being happy or well-adjusted at any point in her life. She seriously believes that all of these wrongs and whatnot have been committed against her, and that she really is a victim of who-knows-what. We all know better, but she doesn't. It's come from all stages of her life, so it's hard to tell what's specifically part of the drinking, what's mental illness, what has just been ingrained in her since birth.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Right here, right now!
Posts: 3,424
I have been learning from reading Dr. Simon's stuff not because I think my ex was a pyschopath, but because of my reaction to him was similar to what he talks about as the other person involved.
My guess is that if he was a pyschopath, alcoholic, cheater, or any combination of the above, but what I do with it (and for me it all felt similar and I acted/reacted similarly).
I kept attributing meaning to his behavior "Oh he does this because he was adopted, had a bad day at work, (fill in the blank)."
It gave me an excuse to hear what I wanted to hear and not pay attention to his actions which were pretty clear from about two months in.
I had not considered the empathy part before but I do think that my ex struggled to "put himself in someone else's shoes." When we were seperating he stayed in the house, but then I bought the house. He ended up "renting" the house from me for a bit until he bought his own. During one conversation about this he said "but I don't want to move twice...." I had to remind him that I already had, and that was not a reasonable excuse.
Thanks again.
My guess is that if he was a pyschopath, alcoholic, cheater, or any combination of the above, but what I do with it (and for me it all felt similar and I acted/reacted similarly).
I kept attributing meaning to his behavior "Oh he does this because he was adopted, had a bad day at work, (fill in the blank)."
It gave me an excuse to hear what I wanted to hear and not pay attention to his actions which were pretty clear from about two months in.
I had not considered the empathy part before but I do think that my ex struggled to "put himself in someone else's shoes." When we were seperating he stayed in the house, but then I bought the house. He ended up "renting" the house from me for a bit until he bought his own. During one conversation about this he said "but I don't want to move twice...." I had to remind him that I already had, and that was not a reasonable excuse.
Thanks again.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Richland Center, WI
Posts: 38
Lilamy,
I think that is EXACTLY my problem! I'm trying to rationalize unrational behavior. It has been very hard for me to try and understand my AH and the choices he has made over the past few years.
I need to work through my frustration and anger somehow.
I think that is EXACTLY my problem! I'm trying to rationalize unrational behavior. It has been very hard for me to try and understand my AH and the choices he has made over the past few years.
I need to work through my frustration and anger somehow.
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Dallas, Texas
Posts: 82
Yes, I am one too that is trying to understand the insanity. And herein lies the problem. I will never understand fully what AH is going through. And in part, I am glad because to truly understand would be walking his same journey. I asked my therapist why people become "someone else" while/during/after drinking. He said they were always that person. When sober you can contain those personality traits which may not be acceptable to a sober society. Throw alcohol into the mix, and those boundaries are gone. It does not matter how old you are, how educated you are, how long you may have been sober in the past. As AH did, spent the last 26 years working with recovering addicts/alcoholics. He was arrested 2 weekends ago. Possession of a controlled substance. For a man that used to counsel inmates, I can only imagine his world now.
Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
