The Way They Think

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Old 08-28-2012, 09:48 PM
  # 21 (permalink)  
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Great post L2L and all. I think I'm becoming crazy trying reason through all things alcoholics do.

Ditto on the "So, so tired of he hurt" my brain hurts analyzing it all.
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Old 08-29-2012, 07:15 AM
  # 22 (permalink)  
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I want to reply to everyone's responses, I just haven't had time yet. In the meantime, I wanted to share this post from Dr. Simon's website on manipulative people, and how when we think they don't know what they're doing, despite being told a million times what we want or wish they would do, they KNOW what they're doing but they just don't WANT to do what we ask. I know that I personally have often thought, "If he loved me he would just ..." when love really has nothing to do with it. I take their behavior personally, and think it is a reflection of my worth, when in actuality, it is ONLY a reflection of THEIR attitudes and dysfunctions. Anyway, here's the post from Dr. Simon's site:

During my many years working with victims in abusive relationships, I heard the same types of questions asked over and over again: ”Why can’t they see what they’re doing?”; “Do you think they really meant to hurt me?”; “Don’t they probably have ‘issues’ they’re unaware of and that they’ve never really faced before?”; and, “How do I get them to recognize the harm they do?” And because I had broad-based training as a therapist, including training in all the traditional approaches, at first even I believed that my role in helping disturbed characters change would be to assist them in getting in touch with the unconscious underpinnings of their behavior (e.g., early childhood trauma, mistrust of others, fear of intimacy, etc.). What a surprise it was to learn how very different in every respect the disturbed characters were from their victims in relationships, especially with respect to their levels of awareness.

A couple of years ago I posted an article titled: “Confessions of a Covert-Aggressive Personality.” It featured the testimony of someone who acknowledged many of the things I had been saying for years about certain personalities. And it quickly became by far the most widely-read post on this blog. I think that’s largely because it validated for a lot of folks what they had suspected in their hearts about their dysfunctional partners but still couldn’t bring themselves to believe.

At the present time, readers trying to access the original article are being re-directed to another article. The other article has some great information in it to be sure, but it lacks the focus of the original article with respect to the disturbed character’s awareness. The original article also featured the testimony of one person (though slightly altered and embellished with material from a few other sources to assure anonymity). So it seemed important to fashion another article on the original topic, but this time blending the testimonies of no fewer than 7 individuals who have contacted me directly through the blog and several others with whom I’ve come into contact via other means. Many have read one or both of my books and found themselves described accurately in them. And, as is often the case, some had finally reached a point in their lives when they decided it was time to take a serious look at their character and to begin the process of character re-construction. Their testimonies are remarkably similar, and in the “confession” that follows, I’ve taken great pains to borrow small passages and phrases from different testimonies, to edit the text so as to preserve gender neutrality, and to assemble the testimonies in such a way so as to make it impossible to identify any one individual while still illustrating the most notable characteristics these impaired characters have in common. The text of this “confession” will read as one person’s self-admissions. But it is actually a composite of many, fashioned in a way to drive the point home about the disturbed character’s level of awareness:

“Dr. Simon,
I have read your book In Sheep’s Clothing and have to admit that I am the “covert-aggressive personality” you describe. Every description you give fits me like a glove. I have all the thinking errors you talk about. I’ve always known I had them, but it was weird to see them laid out in black and white. And I think I could illuminate you a bit on some manipulation “tactics” I’ve used that you don’t mention in your book. I’ve always been a person determined to win and I’ve learned lots of ways to eventually get what I want or to get others to see things my way. But that’s beside the point. I’m now at the point in my life where I’m tired of all the trouble I’ve caused and I want to change the person I am. That wasn’t always the case. When my partner first gave me your book to read, I wanted to turn things around on them and make them think everything was all their fault. My pride was getting the better of me and I didn’t want them to think they had my number. So, I acted all offended, pretended I didn’t know what they were talking about, and tried to find as many examples as I could where I thought I could prove they were just as guilty, or maybe even more so, of many of the things they were confronting me about (guilting is one of my favorite “weapons”). But I’ve had to admit that I’ve made quite a mess of things over the years and I’m really wanting to face some things about myself and to make some changes.
Dr. Simon, I’ve been in many types of counseling over the years. And when I was younger, my parents put me into a hospital program. But back then, I liked the person I was and didn’t want to change. And it felt good to think I’d figured out how to get just about anything I wanted in life. So I played the game, gave “lip service” to everything, but in my heart I was determined to be the same person I’d always been. And I always knew what I was doing when I was manipulating others. I also knew what I was doing to them in the process because their reactions were so obvious and clear. The fact is I simply didn’t care. The only thing that really mattered to me was getting what I wanted and saving face. But I’m realizing more and more how much I have lost over the years because of that attitude. The big question I have now is how to change. I’ve read the “Ten Commandments of Character” you talk about in your other book [Character Disturbance], and I see where a lot of these things apply to me. Still, I wonder what it will take for me to actually put the things you talk about into practice.

There’s a part of me that wishes I could share with you the many other stories that would drive home the point about the disturbed character’s level of awareness. But I think the altered “confession” offered above illustrates matters fairly well. In fact it illustrates quite clearly five of the important differences that characterize folks who are primarily best thought of as “neurotic” to some degree and folks who are primarily impaired in character (these differences are discussed at length on pages 30-58 in Character Disturbance). Suffice it to say that if you’re dealing with someone in your life who fits the description I offer of the disturbed character, despite the fact that you might feel tempted to believe otherwise, they’re probably quite aware of the behavior that’s driving you nuts. This is such a crucial thing to remember, because it’s usually your doubt about whether they really know what they’re doing that leads you to mistrust your gut instincts and to be manipulated. And as to whether disturbed characters can or will change, I think the confession above says it all. They certainly can. The real question is whether time, circumstances, and personal reckonings have helped them acquire the motivation to do so.
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Old 08-29-2012, 12:35 PM
  # 23 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Thumper View Post
I'm not even sure he has insight on that. The fact that he simply saw the world through a different lens became more and more clear when things got more serious and we saw a counselor a couple of times. He would make statements that directly contradicted each other. He saw things through a different lens and simply did not have the ability to spin anything to see it from another angle or give consideration to my input. Real conversations (where he didn't just agree with me) were impossible because he'd simply make his statements over and over - he didn't respond to my input. How can there be a conversation if he one person doesn't take in, consider, and respond to the other person's input? I blamed it on the alcoholism at the time but with a little more clarity I really think that is just who he is and how he interacts with/views the world. Impoverished sense of accountability is an understatement....and so extremely self-focused.

L2L the question of empathy is a good one. I'm very resistant to thinking my ex has no empathy but I have to admit that it does seem to be extremely difficult for him to move past his own thoughts/feelings and try and identify someone else's. I don't know if I have many/any examples of where he has done that. He isn't cruel, and thank god for that or he would be a monster.

He loves his kids. I know that. I'm not sure he empathizes with them all that much. His feelings for them seem to always be hinged on how the relationship is affecting him (with no sense of the fact that he is the one with the power to change it). He misses them and is always rambling on about how hard it is on him. He has never once said anything about how it might be affecting them. The only time he's indicated it might be hard on them is if he is using it as a weapon against me. I've ruined their life and all that.

When we lived together and they would get hurt it would scare him. He cares for them and obviously doesn't want them hurt but he felt anxious/afraid when they were hurt and his reaction was about him, not them. He did not rush in to comfort/attend to them. He would scold them. He didn't relate/react to their hurt, he reacted to how it made him feel. He takes them fishing, hunting, and golfing because he likes that. One of them took Taekwondo for a year, which he has no interest in. He did not go to a single event for that. He didn't say anything bad about it, and was encouraging when it was talked about, but his actions did not follow.

Lots to think about. I have two children that are so naturally empathetic and it shows...and two not so much. When you see it through innocent children - it is so stark. I really do think that lots of what I blamed on alcoholism is just who my ex is as a person - and it isn't a good fit for me so I know I made the right decision. Even though he is sober now I have no regrets.
AXBF is the same way. He sees things the way he sees things and that's pretty much it. I could say what the problems I had were, but he never really understood. Unless I told him directly what I wanted him to do, I don't think he got it. His way of doing things, to me, is just whacked out. I don't think he can understand anything from anybody else's viewpoint. Life, it seems, is just rules and requirements to him. Same thing with his children. He does not seem to have any empathy or even understanding of how they might feel. It was horrible to witness how he would talk to them when he and his XW were going through a divorce. I thought, this man has NO appreciation for how these children must be feeling! Honestly, I'd never seen any parent act like that before.

Yes, I noticed also that EVERYTHING is about HIM. So I totally understand what you are talking about when the child gets hurt and he is all about his OWN feelings, though you know he CARES about the child, HIS feelings seem to be more important. He would say things to the children to scare them into behaving, or lie to them to scare them into being obedient and doing what he said. It was truly weird and dysfunctional. I could not figure out why he would lie to them or scare them, to try to get them to do what he wanted. But now I understand, it's frickin manipulation. I should have seen it then, should have seen it coming, that if he lies to his children, he would lie to me. Boy was I fooled.
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Old 08-29-2012, 12:36 PM
  # 24 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by outtolunch View Post
Thank you for the share.

I believe many of us become expert at rationalizing unacceptable behaviors instead of creating and maintaining boundaries to protect ourselves the chaos.
I agree. In every relationship I have ever been in, I have always searched for the reasons why they act a certain way. I don't know what it is like to be in a relationship where I am not having to do this. Are there such relationships??? Searching = rationalizing. I also buy all the BS people feed me. I am that gullible.
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Old 08-29-2012, 12:42 PM
  # 25 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by LifeRecovery View Post
I have been learning from reading Dr. Simon's stuff not because I think my ex was a pyschopath, but because of my reaction to him was similar to what he talks about as the other person involved.

My guess is that if he was a pyschopath, alcoholic, cheater, or any combination of the above, but what I do with it (and for me it all felt similar and I acted/reacted similarly).

I kept attributing meaning to his behavior "Oh he does this because he was adopted, had a bad day at work, (fill in the blank)."

It gave me an excuse to hear what I wanted to hear and not pay attention to his actions which were pretty clear from about two months in.

I had not considered the empathy part before but I do think that my ex struggled to "put himself in someone else's shoes." When we were seperating he stayed in the house, but then I bought the house. He ended up "renting" the house from me for a bit until he bought his own. During one conversation about this he said "but I don't want to move twice...." I had to remind him that I already had, and that was not a reasonable excuse.

Thanks again.
Dr. Simon is not saying that all these people are psychopaths, and that's not what I'm saying either. He explains it that character disturbance occurs in a spectrum. Some people are more disturbed than others. Those who are the most disturbed are the psychopaths. But there are different "strengths" of character disturbance, if you will. You might not be married to an actual psychopath, but the person may be somewhere else on the spectrum. He basically says that if you are having significant problems in your relationship with them, or if they have significant problems at work or school (basically, if they have problems with normal societal values and expectations), then you are likely dealing with someone who has a character disturbance of some strength. This totally makes sense to me.
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Old 08-29-2012, 12:47 PM
  # 26 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by JustaBloke View Post
Great post L2L and all. I think I'm becoming crazy trying reason through all things alcoholics do.

Ditto on the "So, so tired of he hurt" my brain hurts analyzing it all.
I tell ya', reading his books has really opened my eyes and made me feel stronger. Here I was going insane with the pain of separating from and going NC from AXBF, blaming myself, believing his lies, but after reading these books, I am beginning to understand exactly what I have been dealing with all these years. What he describes completely explains why AXBF would do and say the things he has done and said, and exactly why he lied, cheated on, and betrayed me in the end. No other explanation makes sense to me, and no other explanation brings me any peace.
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