choublak

One of the things my mom said when she first found out my dad was cheating and that she might be faced with getting a divorce. She didn't want to be divorced or alone. She was 24 when she married my father, she married him because she was "ready to be married".

I recall certain comments she made throughout my life that kind of made me raise an eyebrow. One was when I was a teenager, she had seen the mother of a classmate of mine from the Catholic school, at church one Sunday. This mother was sick with liver cancer or something, she had become depressed, then an alcoholic, then got the liver disease. Point being, she didn't look well at all. And I remember my mom saying, "she looks awful, she must have gotten divorced or something". She said this BEFORE she knew that the woman was sick. So, in my mom's eyes, being divorced was equivalent to the kiss of death or something.

Can anyone give me a perspective from that generation? You don't have to if you don't want.

How is this helpful to me and my recovery? Knowledge. The more I know, the more I grow as a person. In my mom's generation, being married was the end-all be-all of life; I grew up in the younger generation of "you don't need a man" and at times talking to my mother feels like culture shock.

Isollae

I'm not so old...but I did grow up in an atmosphere of divorce as a big no-no and have been asking myself why I haven't divorced sooner so I'll respond too.
I've never thought about it really; on the surface I'm fine with divorce and agree theres many who should divorce. When my sister divorced I applauded her. When one of my brothers divorced I thought what an idiot. But I did grow up with an old-fashioned and religious father and an old-fashioned oriental mother who brought her strict culture to our childhoods. Both very firmly believed that divorce was wrong except in a few circumstances. Both never said that divorce was shameful or a failure, yet somehow thats the feeling I grew up with. If its necessary then either you've failed to be what you should be as a spouse or you made a shamefully stupid choice...either way you failed somewhere. And they had such a beautiful relationship themselves. They bent and flexed to each and loved each other so well. Yet they always said that it wasn't easy, especially in the early years. I was the youngest of four so I have no memories of 'hard' years between them and they never said what/why it was hard.
I still remember what it was like to fall asleep listening to my parents nightly bedtime ritual. They would lie in bed holding each other and just talk about their days and their thoughts and gradually the talk would get less and then there'd be silence. I was taught that this beautiful thing they shared doesn't just happen though. Its something you have to work for and sometimes be willing to sacrifice for in order to achieve. I don't recall them ever saying that sometimes it can not be achieved no matter how hard someone tries.

PurpleWilder

I come from a very small Midwestern town and getting a divorce would have been the same as catching leprosy. People would have lost a lot of their friends and especially would have had trouble at church.

However, I sincerely believe that a lot of that sentiment came from jealousy - there were so many bad marriages in that town and most people lacked the courage to get out of them. So---sour grapes! My parents hated each others' guts but my mom was hopelessly narcissistic and staying with my dad always gave her an excuse to be miserable. Out on her own, she would have had to actually try to live.

Tuffgirl

I've had conversations with a lot of older people. I know your Mom's viewpoint, but it is not necessarily a generation thing. You mention Catholic school - is she Catholic? It could be more of a religious perspective she holds. It could also be fear of being on her own. Have you ever asked her directly why she feels that way about marriage?

tabatha

When people got married in the 50's it was common for the man to work and the woman to stay home with the kids. The women worked when the men were off to war in Europe but when the war ended (WWII) and the men came home it reverted back to men go to work and women stayed home. Due to needing someone to work and someone to be home with the house and kids it made sense if there were two of you and not just one. I know, I know- things have really changed in that thinking. You stayed married because it was a practical thing to do and also because the church (ours was Catholic) did not recognize divorce and you could be ex communicated and could not be remarried in the catholic church if you had been divorced. Boy have things changed huh? So- people stayed married for better or worse ( a lot of times for the worse) and there weren't many single people out there after a certain age. If you were single after a certain age you stuck out like a sore thumb for sure, and people wondered what was wrong with you. Ha Ha Ha I am now laughing about all this as I remember it all and I just can't believe it!

Cyranoak

...is the discussion around marrying, or staying in bad relationships, in order to "not be alone," or because "it's time," or because your religion dictates it. And also that being "alone" is even worse than being miserable, abused, or both in your relationship/marriage.

Does alone have to mean lonely? Does marriage bring happiness and serenity? Is it better to be with somebody and miserable than alone and serene? How can I learn to be happy when not in a relationship? How can I learn to be happy in one?

I think this is a great post and it brought up great questions for me to ponder.

Thanks!

Cyranoak

choublak

Is she Catholic? YES. Although she didn't marry a Catholic, my dad doesn't really have a religion. They did get married in a Catholic church, and my dad had to sign some papers stating that he was okay with his kids being raised in the Catholic faith. So, she is Catholic but was willing to marry a non-catholic.

My grandmother, her mother, on the other hand, has pictures of saints hanging everywhere in her house. Including the bathrooms. There is a picture of The Last Supper hanging in the dining room.

Tuffgirl

I would imagine it is a combination of factors - including and probably most strongly related to her upbringing in the Catholic faith during a more traditional society. But I also think of the movie " The Help" and how those southern woman, even in the 60's, were groomed to become wives. I remember some of my older ladies I worked for talking of the "MRS" degree one sought in college during the 50's and 60's.

One of my greatest mentors, who is 93, had a heck of a struggle in North Carolina pursuing her Master's in Social Work in the 1930's. She even waited until her mid-30's to have children, having her last one at 42 (insert gasp here)! She traveled the world during the wars and was in the first medic unit to arrive in Japan after we won the war. She knew she was "bucking the system" but decided to live life on her own terms. That is unusual for that generation.

LaTeeDa

My mother still believes to this day that a woman is "less than" without a man. She doesn't have an identity other than "wife." If I ask her a question about what she likes to do or what kind of food she likes to eat, she answers with "we like....." She signs all her letters and emails with both their names.

What I didn't realize until I got into therapy, was how much these beliefs were ingrained in me. I rejected it all on an intellectual level, but it was imprinted on my personality at an emotional level. I believe this is why the thought of divorce caused such panic and fear in me. Intellectually, I knew I could easily survive and even be better off without a partner. But, omg, the emotions that the word divorce evoked in me.....

My therapist helped me understand how when you grow up with role models who model unhealthy behavior, it takes a lot more than just rejecting their beliefs to overcome that conditioning. It's almost like it's part of my DNA. I still get irrational fears in regard to certain ideas or thoughts, and I can usually trace them back to conditioned behavior from my parents.

Great topic!

L

DesertEyes

Well.... I don't want to admit that I am that old.... if I could I would just claim that I am 17 years old.... but it is a program of "rigorous honesty" so .... <sigh>

Back when I was a kid, a long time ago in a land far, far away, life was very hard for women. As others have pointed out society discriminated against them in awful ways. ( I know that society _still_ discriminates against women, I'm just relating my experience from back then )

There were very few jobs that a woman could have, and none of them were "professions" as we see them today. Society backed women into a corner and they really had no other choices. The few women who did manage to challenge society paid a very high price, and they are admired today for their courage, and because they were so few.

Marriage was not a matter of love. It was a matter of survival. Love was a fringe benefit.

My mother is 98 years old. Will be 99 in a couple months. She has slowed down a lot these last couple years but before that she was seriously feisty. She still has the morals and beliefs that she was brought up with and has never noticed that the world continues to move along. She was a young woman when the first "great depression" hit this country and still remembers the bread lines, the food riots, the soup kitchens. That fear of "financial insecurity" is not a fear in her mind, it is a deep seated terror.

One time we were driving thought town, I don't remember where to, and she saw a pregnant lady on the sidewalk.

Major fit. She believes that pregnant women should remain inside the home and not "show themselves". Of course, underneath that belief is the pre-condition that women who are pregnant should not work for a living. The way my Mom sees it, these values are based on the world she grew up in. Back then people died from starvation. The moral approval of neighbors, churches and employers was about the only source of long term security to be had. A lot of the social support programs we have today did not exist when she was a child, or a teenager.

I respect her beliefs. A lot of them I don't agree with. There is no point to discussing them with her ( I tried, for awhile, then my al-anon recovery reminded me about boundaries and trying to change other people ) I did, however, manage to talk her out of filing a complaint with the police department about that pregnant lady.

Mike

dollydo

I am 64 and have some lady friends whose entire lives rotates around being with, or, seeking a man. That's all they talk and think about...it bores me to death...and, I feel sorry that they are so one dimensional.

Like LaTeeDa said they have no idenity of their own, they are only an apendage of the man.

choublak

My mom does and always has worked though. As a teacher.

But, I remember her always talking about "broken families" and how kids from broken families would probably end up divorced. Which is probably statistically true. It was the way my mother said it, the way she felt the need to frequently point that out. "Her parents are divorced. She's going to end up divorced."

So, someone with divorced parents would later become divorced by default. I remember when I first learned that my father was cheating and that my parents would probably get divorced, I was devastated because I truly believed that with divorced parents, I would marry and then get divorced, by default. And mind you I was in my early twenties at the time (I am now in my late twenties).

For most of my life she viewed divorced people as being "beneath" her, and now she might become one of them. Which, I think has been good for her in a way, because it forced her to open her mind somewhat.

Thumper

Sometimes we are most judgmental about the things we fear the most. We demonize the thing we fear so we can find a way to survive and deny other things.

For instance - I had promised myself that I would give my kids a two parent family. I thought it was one of THE most important things I could do. I must not fail at that. When things began to fall apart for me (years before I left - before my twins were born even) I would research and read all about the terrible fate that awaited children of divorce. I read all the bad statistics and sad emotional trauma over and over. I read about how to make a marriage work. How it was a moral choice and on and on. I did that as a way to convince myself to stay married. I did it to make the alternative so terrible I would find a way to figure it out and make it work. It fueled the denial. I denied my situation, my life, my very reality.. I ignored my inner voice and if she started squawking to loudly I'd start reading.

Until I didn't and then I did the thing I said I'd never do. There is a tipping point. Maybe your mom found hers. I'm not saying your mom had the same thoughts I do - I'm just sharing to say there might be more to it. Also - times have changed. Back in the day single women didn't have near the friends as married women did. I live in a very small town and find that some what true even now. When people get together they invite other couples. Not the single mom with four kids. It must have been very very isolating years ago. You weren't just leaving your husband but all the rest of your social circle behind too.

tabatha

I think in some ways we still have this stigma around that it is better to be married. Movies rarely portray a single person being happy and successful without the ending being that they find their 'soul mate' and live happily ever after. There are still assumptions out there that everyone 'wants' to be married. When I told my hairdresser one day that I was divorced and living alone she says "OMG aren't you depressed? How can you live like that?' Talk shows emphasize the fact that regular sex makes you healthier and happier- Does this mean I'm gonna die young because I don't have a partner? Why do I have to pay extra on a tour trip because I'm single? Why do they try to stick me at a crummy table at a restaurant because it's 'just me'? Why do I get the feeling that my married friends sometimes feel they have 'one up on me' because they have a 'husband!' Being married may be easier at time because you have someone to share the ups and downs of life with but it in no way guarantees any happiness. Sorry for the rant- this is one of my pet peeves still in our society that does not showcase single people in a happy positive way.

dollydo

I agree with Tabatha, sad commentary on the world we live in...IMHO, this mindset has gone on waaaay toooo loooong.

TakingCharge999

tabatha I am also looking for that showcase, not only single people but a WOMAN, everywhere I see men's stories and paths but not a single one that celebrates the spiritual journey of One Woman, that would be so inspiring. Oh wait, I have read a few biographies... but none 'mainstream'. Heck we might need to learn the art and start creating/directing a short film about the subject

TakingCharge999

In the city I live I am officially a loser, more so turning 30 and single, in fact people didn't want to rent an apartment for me as I arrived from the capital and of course No Decent Lady lives alone. They expected for me to be a troublemaker, or God Knows what. My male coworkers had no issues renting. Very unfair. Fortunately this is changing (I hope)...

choublak

That is a very good point, it makes sense. Thank you.

sojourner

Well, I have to get in your mom's court here and imagine my kids taking comments I have made in their lives and putting great stock in them. Because I feel my children (now young adults) have done that more than I can imagine.

Perhaps your mother knew more about that other woman's private life that you realize. We moms know a lot more about the problems that other adults are dealing with (including our children's friend's parents) than we let on. So it could be that your mom knew something about the marriage status of that woman and so the comment was coming from that knowledge.

I can remember my mother making comments like that when I was young (she would be in her late 90s if she were alive). And I remember savoring those comments in a negative way for a long time. Now that I'm around her age when she said them and now that I have adult children who do the same thing I did, I find myself not doing that to her any more.

Hope that helps. If not, "take what you need and leave the rest."

choublak

I understand what you're trying to say, and I appreciate the suggestion. I only wish it were more like that.

Unfortunately, I knew more than I ever cared to because I was living in my parents house at the time. The other "woman" was a girl of barely 20. Married once, at age 18 or 19 for less than a year (this is true). Was raped and impregnated at age 15, had a botched abortion (she might have made this up). She is bipolar. My dad was "attracted" to her because she builds up his ego. She has contacted me and my brother, and my mom, in the past.

As a result of all this, I learned way. too. much. about my parents sex life.