NikNox

Gosh I feel for you. When my stepdaughter was nine years old we took her on holiday, just a caravan park, nothing special, but it had great evening entertainment for kids. To begin with she wouldn't join in with the other kids, despite our encouragement to do so, just kept saying she was 'too old' or 'too mature for kids stuff', that kind of thing. Then one evening my husband and I were sat outside getting some air, and she came out, sat down and folded her arms and said 'you know I can't really get involved with those kids in there. It's because I have so many responsibilities and have to be an adult, I cannot be a child'. She didn't mention her mother, or her life at home but we sure as hell knew what she meant. I had to walk away because tears were falling down my cheek. I'll never forget that, and that was just one of many statements from her from when she was 3 years old.

Awful, these are children, children who deserve a childhood, yet somehow in the addicts mind or demeanour, it's okay to take childhood away from them.

How do they sleep at night?

lillamy

Absolutely. Luckily, I've talked to the kids a lot over the years about keeping secrets -- and that any time an adult asks you to keep a secret, you need to tell another adult that you trust. Doesn't have to be me, it could be your teacher or your Sunday School teacher or aunt Emily -- but whenever an adult asks you to keep a secret (and it's not about Christmas or a birthday present), there's something fishy and you need to check with another adult whether the secret is OK or not.

Nik, I honestly think they sleep at night because they don't know what they're doing. If I could convince myself they are pure evil, it would somehow be easier, because then I could fight evil with all my might. But in this case, it's a generational curse: RAXH is treating his children the way his parents (who don't touch alcohol at all) treated him (and still treat him, even though he's an adult). Dysfunction comes in many forms, not all of them tied to substance abuse.

Codie, she's already textbook codependent, and that's why I really need to get her into counseling. She's agreed to it if I come with her -- and I think that's a good start for easing her into it, but I also agree with you that a sensitive codie kid needs to be able to speak to someone objective without a parent in the room. She's the kid who picks up on if I'm feeling sad even if I'm in another room scrubbing floors. She's the kid who comes home and has been bullied at school and asks me for strategies to help the bully be a nicer person. She's already asking me about professions where you can "help people, because it makes me feel good to help people."

coyote21

If you can, PM Bernadette, she has a lot of wisdom about this stuff, she's helped me often. She and several brothers had an alcoholic dad who actually found sobriety, but she has great insight.

One of her suggestions to me was to be completely open and honest about what is going on. Little kids can misunderstand one thing and then go off on a whole scary tangent fueled by misinformation. I often think LMC has a good understanding of something, then bam, she says something completely mystifying.

As adults we have a tendency to want to shield them from the truth, seems to make it worse in my experience. I've told LMC the truth about this whole mess from the get go. I try not to trash her mom, but I damn sure don't cover for her either.

Also, if theres any way to do it, get her to a counselor. I took LMC for a couple of years, and we may start back. Having a 9yo being made to feel responsible for her dad is way wrong, I would tend to that soon.

Thanks and God bless us all,
Coyote

Codie101

lillamy i think counselling with you at first until she is comfortable on her own is a great idea. I encourage it. My mother took me to counselling with her when I was in my late teens bc her therapist wanted to speak with me. I was told before we went into the session that I was not allowed to speak about certain things, i.e. my mother having an affair with my step-father's friend (oh she told me that when I was about 16 yrs old.). she kept interrupting and answering questions on my behalf. The therapist told her that he was speaking to me and that I was a separate person from her. He also assessed in that one meeting that I was completely different from my mother. She wasn't very happy. When was she ever happy?!

Anyway, the more therapy your daughter gets now the better. I would be afraid that the codependency will lead her down a path similar to mine where I chose relationships in which i am the caretaker and i "fix" the broken people. They are attracted to me. I am now 44 yrs old and have just realized what's been going on for my entire life. Your daughter has a better chance of "fixing" herself before she has serious life choices to make. Therapy is a great idea! You are a wonderful mother to see that! Maybe get involved in things (sports, art, music) something where SHE is the focus and doesn't have to "take care" of anyone but herself.

I too was like your daughter. I could read my mother's mood - in fact I am ultra sensitive and can pick up on things with my BF and really anyone close to me. I am upset and anxious if someone is upset with me and in fact bend over backwards to avoid it - even if it means sacrificing a piece of myself. Yes, codependency drains your independence and minimizes the "real" you.

Well that was a much longer response than I intended! Sorry for being so long-winded!

lillamy

No apology needed (but we do that a lot, don't we? One of my closest Al-Anon friends can't say a full sentence without apologizing... we joke about it... "sorry it's your birthday"... "I'm sorry I have to give you a hug"... ).

Good, good advice here. And I can't believe your mother, Codie. Well, yeah, unfortunately, I can. *sigh*

The complete and utter honesty is hard. I feel like I'm between Scylla and Carybdis here; on the one hand, I'm done covering for him (BTDT), but navigating those waters between "being truthful and honest" and "badmouthing the other parent" is hard. Especially when the other parent's insight is nil. In his mind, if I tell it to the kids straight, I'm talking trash about him. (Which is kind of hilarious if you think of it, and a special kind of A logic... just as he told me it was my fault if he lost his job because I left him and he decided he was going to rehab to try and win me back...) But I digress..

I do tell it straight in these cases, though -- I do tell them it's WRONG for a parent to offload their emotional garbage onto a kid (I put it a bit nicer, but that's the message). The balance is also hard because the kids need to feel like they can continue communicating with me, and if they sense hostility or anger toward RAXH, they immediately step into defense mode and stop talking.

wicked

But, what is great about you, lillamy, you know this.
You are aware and you know.

Yes, Codie, me too. It was hard work reading everyones mood. Now, I am getting better at asking. I found some of the things I thought were happening were not.
Living in reality. A nice change from inside my head. My head contains many wrong messages, and I am trying to push them out with the right ones.


Just a reality check, how many have apologized to inanimate objects?
Or, if someone runs into you, "sorry" is out of your mouth before the next breath is taken?
Not that I would know of such things.

lillamy

My friend and I joke that if we got bitten by a dog, we'd apologize to it.

Oh can I ever relate to this!!! I don't know how many times I've been convinced that my boss was about to fire me... and every time, it's turned out that YES, he was angry and upset and disappointed... once in his auto repair guy; once in the mortgage company; once he was dealing with an addiction problem in his extended family... that's one area where we can be surprisingly similar to addicts: "What? Someone's upset? Well, because I am the center of the universe, it has to be because of me!!!"

NikNox

Goodness this thread is striking some chords. I guess the similarities run through pretty much everywhere on this site, but it's the first time I've visited a support site specifically for alcoholism, so please bear with some of my ignorances such as some of the abbreviations!

Lillamy, you are a wonderful mother, doing the very best for your child, which is what a parent should do isn't it? The thing that I find hardest to get my head around is when a parent clearly isn't doing their best for their child. For me it was easy, sacrificing things for the sake of my 2 adorable boys, without even thinking about it. For them, their childhood was easy, just as it should be, with me and their dad (we separated 10 years ago, when they were 11 and 7) doing the parenting and them being oblivious to the trials and tribulations of life. So, it was therefore a huge shock to become involved with someone whose ex partner was the complete opposite, who seemed not to care at all about her daughter and the child's welfare. In those early days I found myself abhored at the lack of cleanliness in the child, the poorly fitting clothes, the LACK of appropriate clothing, shoes with holes in, constant and continual headlice that were so dreadfully bad they were visible crawling around on top of her head, sometimes over her forehead. This sweet, beautiful child, neglected. Of course we solved all the problems we could, but it's not enough is it? At the end of the day, the child still has to return to that, live with that, and grow up as a co-dependent.

There are no easy answers, for anyone. Whilst I have no doubt whatsoever that my stepdaughter's mother loves her child, I cannot fathom what type of love it is. It's certainly not unconditional, how can it be when at 12 years of age she is still dirty and unkempt at home, still riddled with headlice, is bullied because of the headlice. I know I couldn't sleep if I thought I was subjecting my child to anything less than complete love and utter devotion. I couldn't bear it if my child went to school with headlice and got picked on because of them. The guilt would crucify me.

There is a lot I have learned over the past few years, but there's a hell of a lot I don't know. We have fear of the future, sadness of the past, and I hope that these forums will give me more wisdom and perhaps some understanding of the alcoholic and how they work. Or, is it a place none of us can go without actually going?

Codie101

LOL Wicked...I do that all of the TIME!!! When someone bumps into me I say "sorry" - i am going to have to work on that. I don't think growing up in the South helps!

I have found that my mood-dar is somewhat twisted since the smallest thing can shift me into survival mode/defense mode. So I am trying not to assume - cuz you know what that gets you! It served me well as a kid but not so much as an adult.

lillamy...true about defense mode. I think children feel torn between both parents. children love both of parents, good or bad. Your parents are still your parents - as a kid they are all you have. Thank goodness your children have you. I think being honest about alcoholism is a must without bashing their dad. I think explaining the reasoning and/or the illness behind some of the decisions/behaviors of their dad might be a good way to do it. You aren't really picking on him, but you are explaining why he may do some of the things he does without making excuses for him. Truth is essential. Of course, trying to discuss this with the kids may be hard for you - your anger will show at times...as codependents they probably want to avoid anger from you so they withdraw. They need to learn NOT to be afraid of anger.

PS so now I am NOT sorry for the length of my post! Ha!!

wicked

I can feel it with my mood dar! On to the Batcave, Robin, we have some feelings to soothe!

:rotfxko

Codie101

Wicked - your so funny - the Batcave to sooth feelings? LOLOLOL

Priceless. Thanks I needed that!

wicked

I am a recovering alcoholic, and your stepdaughter's mother will do what she has to to protect her addiction.
My first husband did get my oldest son from me. I was not fit to be a mother and ran away to Italy with my new husband in the Army. (geographic cure). I did not fight it, I was so depressed and drinking, I was nearly non existent.
even though my son was taken from me, he never forgot me, nor did he ever let them talk badly about me.
i would watch very very carefully for her to start using substances to cope.
my oldest started at 11.

bless your hearts for hangin in there.

Beth

pixilation

I thought the apology thing was a midwestern trait, not a codie trait! Well, maybe it's both, and then I'm doomed to spend my life apologizing to everything and anything.

StarCat

Fortunately, rarely, and only certain objects. I talk to my laptop and my car (they both have names), so I automatically apologize to them - nothing else, fortunately.

ALL THE TIME!

Either that, or we're so used to being blamed for everything by the A, we automatically assume everyone else will blame us, too?

With my XABF, it was conditional love. "I love you when you fulfill my needs." Not saying that's true in this case, but that's what happened in my case.

You can understand some of what an alcoholic does, and some of the whys, but you'll never know everything. The most important thing to know regarding how they operate is that their decisions are their own, and while they may blame it upon outside forces (whatever they have available to blame), the true responsibility for their decisions comes back 100% on them.
The more important thing, though, is that each person who comes into contact with her needs to recognize that her shortcomings are not their responsibility, even when the alcoholic says otherwise.

She is lucky to have you to look out for her and care about her. I do not know anything about UK law in these matters, but I wish you (and your stepdaughter) the very best.

lillamy

Haha, I spent considerable time in the Midwest. Maybe the Midwest just gathers codies because we feel right at home there, with everyone else apologizing all the time?

I talk to my laptop and car, too, but I don't apologize to them. I tell my laptop I love it every day, and I ask my car way too often "what's wrong NOW, you great gigantic piece of scrap metal???"

Codie101

Pix...me too. My southern upbringing required consistent "excuse me" "im sorry" "yes ma'am and yes sir" (s) It is hard to stop doing it!!! I know when I lived in New England I was a freak of nature - apologizing and excusing myself all over the place. [sorry - haha - to any New Englanders on here...no offense.] I just had to say it.

On a more serious note, my heart is breaking for NikNox's stepdaughter. The emotional and physical damage she has already suffered in her 12 years pains me deeply. It continues to amaze me how alcoholics are so single-minded. They only care for one thing-feeding their addiction. To neglect your child to that extent? Wow. That's a case for child protective services - the school should report it because of the headlice infestation. I am surprised that they haven't.

I felt physically ill when I read your post NikNox. I wish you all the best with her. My thoughts and prayers are with her. God bless her.

NikNox

Thank you Beth, for your honesty. It cannot have been easy for you, but equally it cannot have been easy for your son either. But, you know that. Is it that an alcoholic is so clouded by their addiction, they fail to see what's truly important in life, such as their children? Why do my husband and I get the blame for everything, and why does she deny not only her alcoholism but the neglect? Small example ... she knows that we are critical of the state my stepdaughter is in when collected for contact by my husband fortnightly - dirty greasy hair full of headlice, dirty smelly clothing - so why doesn't she make an effort, if only on that particular evening, to ensure that the child is clean, both personally and with clothing and that she is headlice free? Why doesn't she even try to placate us, let alone do it for her child? Maybe you haven't got the answers, I don't know, but it's these types of things that I simply cannot understand. What's sadder is that my stepdaughter makes excuses for her state of uncleanliness. By the way, we don't mention it, we just run her a bath when she arrives. But she will get into the car and say, unquestioned 'oh I'm dirty because mummy didn't have time for me to have a bath' or 'my hair is dirty because we didn't have time to wash it' or 'I'm full of nits because mummy hasn't had time to do my hair'. It's like she knows it's not acceptable, but covers up for her mum all the same. That's a constant, the covering up. When she was younger she used to tell us things that were, to be honest, horrific. But, we would react by calling Social Services, who would visit the home and then she'd have to lie to them, so she stopped telling us things. We would ask occasionally, but she would only shrug her shoulders and say everything was okay.

The first time we actually sat her down and talked to her about her mother's illness was just before Christmas, and that was because Social Services had contacted us because they'd had a referral from someone else, so they thought they would ring to see if we had any concerns (we actually gave up reporting concerns to them in 2007 because of their lack of response and investigation). We told them everything, including mum's recent half hearted admission to her neighbour that she was an alcoholic (although it's a step of sorts I guess). Anyway, the Social Worker said she would be visiting after Christmas to speak to my stepdaughter alone, so we thought we had better speak with her. It was an open, honest conversation, where we told her we knew, and had always known, what was going on. She broke down, poor kid, but acknowledged that she knew there was a problem with drinking. She said her mum never appeared drunken, which is true, she's more of a 'functioning' alcoholic whereby she doesn't appear staggering etc., but drinks steadily throughout the day to keep topped up. Anyway, we gave my stepdaughter leaflets we'd been sent from the National Association for Children of Alcoholics, and told her we were there for her, to support HER and give her any help she needed. She said she thought she could cure her mum, but we had to tell her she cannot. We haven't really spoken to her about it since, and hope that she does open up if she needs to. All of this was relayed to the Social Worker, and we asked for advice on how to instigate support for my stepdaughter, through Al-Ateen or other such organisations. It's difficult because we cannot instigate support by ourselves, it would be unwelcomed by her mother, and we wouldn't be able to take her to meetings because that would involve her mother's permission, so we hoped the SW would be able to help in some way. We still haven't heard from the SW, and she still hasn't been round to visit my stepdaughter (my husband asked her last night).

All of these organisations, yet we cannot help her in a way which we believe will give her the strength to cope, and hopefully steer her away from addiction herself. She's not using anything at the moment, we know that, but who knows what the future holds.

NikNox

Thank you Codie, it's a very hard situation to be in. I just want to wrap her up in cotton wool and cuddle her forever. Last Tuesday it was 12th birthday, and for the first time since she was 5, my husband was permitted to see her on her birthday in our home town. So, we planned a party with family and friends for her after school. We both took a half day off work, and my husband collected her from school. The night before, he sent a text message to his ex, politely asking her to ensure their daughter's hair was washed and lice free because we wouldn't have time between her arriving at our home and the start of her party to do it (plus we'd bought her a netbook and figured she'd be much more interested in playing with that than being bathed, hair washed and deloused!). Anyway, he got a short text back ... 'I do NOT need telling to wash her hair thank you, and she has NOT got headlice', and that was it. So, we had fingers crossed for how she appeared the following day. Thankfully, her hair was reasonable, so I just gave her the new outfit I'd bought her to change into and she was okay. We did notice at the party that she was scratching her head, and inconspicuously guided the other girls away if they looked like their heads were getting too close to hers. On Friday last she came for contact again, and her hair was a state and she was scratching fiercely, so she had her hair washed as soon as she arrived and then combed with a lice comb. I got out 20 adult lice and numerous baby ones. Have to admit I was livid, so angry (not in front of my stepdaughter) and I demanded my husband text this woman to ask why she had lied on Tuesday about the lice. He did, and got no reply, of course.

That's a tiny example, but you know what, apparently, in this country, it's acceptable for a child to be dirty and smelly, it's acceptable for a child to have lice (maybe primary school infants, to an extent, but not senior school children), and it's even acceptable for a child to live with an alcoholic parent. I kid you not, that's exactly what the Social Worker told my husband.

lillamy

Nik, my heart is breaking for your stepdaughter also. It must be so hard, being the one-step removed and not having the legal right to intervene...

NikNox

It is Lill, and she has made it clear, so many times in the past, that I have no rights whatsoever in a somewhat vicious way. But, I can kind of understand that, purely from the aspect that I am another woman in her child's life, alcoholism aside. I wish it were just that, just jealousy on her part because that can be ignored and not worried about. I would like to have Parental Responsibility for my stepdaughter also, but alas that would never happen because her mother's permission is required. Still, I can mother her when she's here can't I, spoil her with love and attention. Rather poignantly, she said to my mother in law at Christmas that when she's there, at home, she is 'just a person'. She said she loves her life at home, but when she's with us she is a princess. Says it all really.