Codie101

That is just horrible!!! I know here in the US if kids have lice they are immediately sent home and are not allowed back until there are no lice! The poor girl. At that age she must get bullied terribly about it. Frankly it is not just the fact that she is living with an alcoholic, but the fact that she has been neglected. I can only imagine what's going on with the 7 yr old. Here she could be charged with neglect. I posted on your thread about your situation. I hope that helps.

Learn2Live

Sorry for throwing a temper tantrum on your thread earlier.

Here's my feedback. Hope something here is helpful. Please feel free to completely ignore anything you don't agree with.

The best thing my mother did for me as a kid was insisted I respect my father as my parent, despite the fact that he was not a responsible parent. Looking back now I realize he did the best he could do at the time. What this meant was she expected I treat him a certain way, regardless of how he treated me. Speak respectfully, etc. Which is good because if you don't teach them to do this, the kids will become like HIM!!

Also, she specifically TOLD me this is a disease and it has NOTHING to do with me. Think The Three Cs. Kids need to know this just as much as we do.

She never badmouthed him in front of us, or blamed him for anything in front of us. She never let us badmouth him and whenever we would she would remind us "That is your FATHER." (But remember, my perspective is from a child of an alcoholic who NEVER beat me and NEVER abused me, was a good person with a very good heart who could be a nasty, fall-down drunk. For a parent who abuses their children, IMO, all bets are off!) Even though my Dad was almost always drunk, he was STILL my hero. I still looked up to him, thought he was invincible, nearly worshiped him. Even though he was a drunk. I am half him. THAT is my self-identity. Remember they get their identity from him no matter that he is a drunk.

Mom also directly instructed me how to AVOID him. This meant I spent A LOT of time in my room, reading. Which isn't so bad if you think about it because kids don't read enough nowadays anyway. It also meant I spent a lot of my teen years AWAY from home (not good AT ALL). So, do the best you can to provide them with a place where they can be AWAY from the alcoholic.

Don't expect perfection (HA! Right?) What I mean is, keep it in perspective. I know it's hard but make it a habit of pointing out the GOOD things about him, the good he is capable of doing. You don't have to be obvious about it. You can just, when appropriate, casually say things like, "Oh that was nice of him." **** like that. You don't pretend that the messed up stuff he says and does is OK; you don't ignore it, acknowledge it without judgment in your voice. But point out the good things he does, "Your dad certainly is good at making spaghetti." or "fixing cars" or whatever it is.

I don't recommend having children with alcoholics but there ARE worse things in life than having an alcoholic parent. Most of the "damage" I suffered IMO came from alcoholic thinking. That is, the way the FAMILIES think, not just the way alcoholics think. It's a family dynamic, not just "blame it on the alcoholic." Remember, you are half of the equation, so learn as much as you can about the role you play in the dynamic. Also bad was the unpredictability. Which creates CONSTANT anxiety. You never know whether you're coming or going. Try to be as predictable as possible and create a home life and schedule that is as predictable and regimented as you can.

And for tweens and teens, if there is another adult, preferably the same sex as your child, who you trust to serve as a role model (other than their teachers), ask that person to spend some time with your child. There have been a handful of people in my life who were not my family who made a tremendous difference in my life. Through them, I got to see "normal." Remember, humans learn by watching others. And they automatically compare themselves and their families to others. The best thing about Alateen (IMO) is that it gives them proof that there is NOTHING wrong with them, that they are not the ONLY ones with a parent like this.

And eat as many meals WITH your children as possible.

OK, I'll get off my soapbox now. Thanks for asking my opinion and thanks for listening.

NikNox

In junior school (4-11) headlice are rife. It's a BIG problem, ever since they got rid of the 'nit nurses' (mind you that was back in the 80's!). Schools often send out 'Bug Busting Day' notifications to parents, asking all parents to check their child's hair on the same day and treat accordingly. But, all it takes is a few not to bother and the problem doesn't go away. I am not a nit snob, my own kids had them at school, but only ever for a day or so because they were always treated as soon as the little blighters were discovered. At senior school it isn't usually a problem, and we do know that at my stepdaughters school they have a no headlice policy, and if any child is discovered with headlice they are sent home and a warning letter is sent to the parent. When we told the school my stepdaughter had lice, we felt awful doing so because it meant she could be sent home, but on the other hand we hoped that the embarassment suffered could be the kick up the proverbial her mother needed to finally, after 8 years, get to grips with the lice. Tough love we thought, but it hasn't worked. We have combed out literally hundreds in one go in the past, and they've even been left in the bath water after a hair wash she's had that many. Goodness knows how her mother doesn't catch them, but the little boy has a shaved head - I wonder why. It makes my blood boil, it really does, because it's something that's so easily dealt with. All it takes is time and effort, regularly. It seems even that is too much.

lillamy

L2L, methinks you need to work on your fit-throwing. That was a gentle breeze (I actually had to go back and find your post because I couldn't remember any fit-throwing... )

That I'm part of the equation is very important to remember. I have one child who has copied RAXH's behavior & coping techniques (yell, rant, throw stuff, find someone to blame) and one who has copied mine (apologize, defuse, redirect, give hugs and pretend like nothing is wrong). One's not healthier than the other.

Digesting the other stuff...

NikNox

Learn2Live, your post is wonderful, truly. It has given us hope, because we have been implementing a lot of your suggestions. I would like to think, and hope, that I can be that role model you speak of. Someone who gives this child the 'normal' she doesn't see at home. We think of our home as an oasis for her. Her bedroom is pink and fluffy, and totally hers. She loves it, and because she shares a room at home with her brother, it really is her own space, in which she wallows. We also always eat meals with her, around the table, like a proper family. Her mother doesn't eat (well apart from a piece of fruit and a handful of nuts a day, plus Vitamins), and never eats with the children. My stepdaughter's table manners have been an issue over the years, and I actually got into trouble with her mother for trying to instill manners when I removed food from her after a warning that I would if she didn't close her mouth when eating. But, manners are important, and I wasn't going to have a child sit at my dinner table eating like a pig. I so know it wasn't her fault, but that didn't mean she couldn't learn. Routine is also important, regularity, because I think that's missing in their household.

One of the things we don't have to do however, is discipline her. I have never, ever, known or known of a child who is so well behaved. She never puts a foot wrong, ever. She is overly compliant, but we do know now that that is a symptom of life with an alcoholic, a symptom borne of fear, sadly. We don't encourage her to be naughty, but we actually long for her to answer back one day, mad as that sounds. Can anyone else relate to that? Either a child of an alcoholic or someone who knows one. I'd really be interested to know.

Trouble is, and this really bugs me, is that she sees her life with her mum as 'normal'. I guess we could debate all day what is normal or not, as we all have varying ideas of normality, but hopefully the normality that we regard as normal will rub off on her. We're just standard people, who work hard for a living and as a consequence of that, have things.

Also, would it follow that a child who lives with an alcoholic, who perceives their life with that alcoholic as 'normal', to seek that same 'normality' in their adult life? Does the smidgen of our normality rub off enough? We really worry about that.

lillamy

*waving*
My youngest is like that. I had to subdue a cheer the first time she talked back to me. She never does with her dad, though -- ever. But at least she's getting some practice on me.

As for "normal" -- I think most of us thought of the family we grew up in as "normal." I mean, to some extent, that's what normal is, right -- what you live with every day. And sadly (I worry a lot about my girls, too), I do think they're likely to look for that "normal" in their future, if they don't get help and counseling.

A friend who grew up with A parents was always dating guys I wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole. I asked her how she could time after time end up with addicts, and she said, "I think maybe that when you grow up in an alcoholic family, the only thing you know is he!!. So you choose an addict for your boyfriend because that's a familiar he!!. The idea that life could be anything other than he!! isn't real to me."

(And wouldn't you know it -- I'm the one who ended up marrying an A, and she didn't..)

NikNox

Wow, that's mad isn't it? We've kind of got used to it, strangely, but do long for her to show signs of being a normal child in that kids do play up, ask for things, gripe and moan, huff and puff, ocassionally slam the door. So, when she does answer us back, we'll probably cry tears of joy and hug her!

Normal is certainly our own definition of it, but I think it's safe to say that normal is definitely NOT living in an alcoholic household. But, having said that, these children think that it is normal, and it's probably only when they become adults themselves that they realise it's not. By then though, the damage has already been done hasn't it, and that's why we have to try and get help and support now.

I'm at a loss, truly, but this site is at least making us realise we are by no means lone.

wicked

i speak kindly and smoothly to my cars, especially if they are fussy.
"i know you can do it!"
whrrrr whrrr whrrr
"cmon now."
whrr whrr, turnover start/1
"there ya go"



Beth

Thumper

I'm so sorry to hear the story of your step daughter NikNox.

You can't remove her from the situation and you are doing such a good job of loving her and making her feel like a princess at your home. That is feeding the child in her heart. She'll never forget it.

The literature was a great idea. Information that allows her to self identify and gives her the ability to control her world in small ways - She can ask for things, how she might be able to bring topics up to her dad, get information she needs, how to approach mentors at her school, etc. We need to teach children how to get what they need - especially when they will need so much.

Start gently teaching her some survival skills because it doesn't sounds as if she's leaving her mother's home any time soon. At 12yo she doesn't actually need her mothers help or prompting to take a shower. Help her know that she should shower and wash her hair every other day, or every day, or whatever. If she needs shampoo and deodorant (toothpaste?) send them with her each time she visits. It will help her socially and with her self image to do those things on her own. She has the power to take care of her self (physically and emotionally) and it is essential that she learns it. No it is not ideal and not what we'd wish for a 12yo but the alternative of not being taken care of and not feeling like you can take care of yourself, is even worse IMO. I can tell from your posts that you could approach this in a way that wasn't punishing or degrading but in a way that builds her up.

ETA: And I'd call social services with every single complaint no matter if they did anything about it or not. Every single one.

lillamy

L2L, I struggle with this. I don't speak ill of him (though the desire is overwhelming sometimes), I do talk to them a lot about alcoholism and how hard it is to overcome that addiction. I have a really hard time telling them, though, that they are to always treat him respectfully. I think maybe it's in how you define what respectful is -- it's hard for me to draw the boundary myself between showing respect and keeping your sanity. When he uses them as his own private emotional garbage can, I do tell them that they don't have to take that, that they have the right to say, "I'm going to go to my room now" when he starts talking to them about how unfair the world is to him and how sorry they should feel for him.

NikNox

Thanks Thumper, you've summed it all up very accurately. The personal hygiene is an issue, and we do tell her that she MUST wash her hair every other day, not just because of the lice but also because she does have very greasy hair, but the problem is that there's very limited hot water at home as mum's electricity is on meter which she has to top up. From what we can gather, one bath a week in a couple of inches of water is about the size of it. We have sent home deodorant, shampoo specifically for greasy hair, nit lotion etc., but we suspect it gets thrown away by mum. She probably sees that as a direct dig at her parenting skills (or lack of them), and she would rather throw such things away than allow her daughter to benefit from them. For a long time, my stepdaughter has been complaining about pimples around her hairline. I immediately went out and bought her some anti-bacterial face wipes, aimed at the teenage market, for her to have here and at home. She still hasn't taken the 'home' pack home, and when I asked her why she hadn't, she said 'mummy will get me some'. That was six months ago, and mum still hasn't got her any but she still hasn't taken them home and is in fact using them here. I've offered to buy more for her to take home, but it's the same answer 'mummy will get me some'.

So, we are trying our very best, encouraging her to take care of her own personal hygiene because she is old enough to do that. Sadly, that is all we can do, and ensure that when she's with us she's clean, deloused and wearing decent, clean clothes.

The literature hasn't been looked at since the first time we showed it to her, but she knows where it is and has been told she has the freedom to look at it if she wishes, without us knowing. We've also told her she can confide in a teacher, the pastor at school, her nana, and us of course. But, we do feel as if all of this has come too late, or rather this sudden show of support regarding her mother's alcoholism has. Just before Christmas was the first time we'd spoken to her about it in it's barest form so to speak, so maybe she just needs time to take in what we've said and realise that we are totally on her side and a million per cent there for her.

Thumper

One other thought. Can the school be of help with the hygiene? Where I live the kids shower after PE. They have to bring in their own shampoo and stuff though. It is also not unheard of for the school to support an extreme circumstance (like your step-daughters) by carving out time for them to shower in the lockers at school on a regular basis. If after PE does not work (at a certain age our kids no longer have to take PE) they arrange for it to happen at some other time of day. Some schools are more open to this then others (and you are in another country so I'm really clueless there) and I'm not sure if her dad has the legal right to speak with the school but it might be another avenue I thought I would mention.

It is never to late. Better late then never!

NikNox

Thanks again Thumper, that's actually a very good idea. We haven't looked around the school (weren't informed of the parent's evening, which mum didn't attend either, but that's not the point), which is 20 miles away from us but is a brand new school that only opened last September, so I would hope they ensure the kids shower after PE. Will find out. Thanks, brilliant idea and as she does PE 3 times a week, it could solve some of these issues.

Oh, and in your previous post you mentioned referring to Social Services repeatedly. Well, we did that before, got nowhere and a Social Worker actually told my husband back in 2007 that if he wanted information he should source it from the internet, and not bother them!!! Unbelievable, and completely destroyed our failing faith in a service that is supposed to be there to protect children. But, we will be making a formal complaint this time and I am currently finding out the best way to do that. My ex partner's sister is very high up in Social Services, in a different part of the country, and I emailed her earlier for her advice on how to make a formal complaint.

Learn2Live

Thank you for sharing this thread Lillamy. Because some time after I wrote about that, I realized Holy Cow, My Mom did not do that for HIM! She did that for ME! Teaching me to respect him had nothing to do with him. It taught me to have respect for people even when they do not appear to deserve it. This is so important to me to realize now, because my parents lives are coming to a close and they will not be with me much longer. Thank you for this gift.

But you are right, he shouldn't be talking to them like that. But ask yourself what can you control? It's been my experience that alcoholics THINK that way. They feel sorry for themselves and yes, they want others to feel sorry for them too. It's a really bad habit to get into. I do not know how you teach a child not to feel sorry for their parent. Other than not feeling sorry for him yourself. I still feel sorry for my Dad.

Learn2Live

Thank you. Glad something made sense It sounds like you have provided a nice place for your stepdaughter to come to. That is great.

Yes. You are describing me as a child. Quiet and compliant. Still am for the most part (quiet and don't like to rock the boat). It is pretty well documented in the ACOA literature the "types" of personalities children of alcoholics develop. You can find books at your library I'm sure on ACOA issues by searching on "children of alcoholics."

Yup. That is her normal. I knew my normal was not normal, and always felt bad about myself because of it. I grew up thinking other people and other families were nothing like mine, that they were somehow better. But I learned the truth after I got into Recovery. That many families I thought were better, were actually WORSE. There is a lot of alcoholism and drug addiction in my hometown and surrounding areas and that stuff gets passed down from generation to generation. Most of the people I used to associate with are still drinking and drugging.

Yes. You will read people talking about that here. There is a relationship dynamic formed in the alcoholic/addict family that the child develops and continues. I STILL struggle with it and I am over 40. I was in a relationship with a very healthy man (first one I ever knew, honest) and found myself sabotaging the relationship by acting out in very old, unhealthy ways. Reacting to him out of old patterns of thinking.

I'm sure it does. But let me tell ya', I have read a lot of material about social issues and do you know the most important determinant of health in adult life? EDUCATION. The more educated a person is, the less likely they are to suffer the effects of social disease such as alcoholism. So if I had limited choice on where to devote most of my energies with a child who comes from a dysfunctional home, I would focus those energies on convincing that kid that education is important and set the stage for that kid to go to college. I realize that my mother instilled that in me at a young age: That teachers were to be respected, that education was important, and that my education was my responsibility. Thanks Mom.

Thanks guys for this thread. I can't tell you how much it is helping me through my parent issues this week.

Love ya'