Help?? Detach or Go No Contact from Children?
To thine own self be true.
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 5,924
My kids got very hateful towards me after a very ugly divorce. One was 11, the other 14. Their dad and his mom told them all sorts of inappropriate and wrong things and poisoned their minds about me.
I think people forget just how vulnerable and impressionable children are, even when they are teens. My XSIL took a teen-parenting class and she was taught that the brains of teenagers are not fully developed and that makes sense to me. They look like little adults and they often act like little adults, but they do not have the reasoning and discernment abilities, or the emotional capacities, that adults have.
I do not have children and I have never been married or divorced so I cannot and do not judge people. I just wish that folks could see how strong and dangerous the need to feel right and justified in their thoughts, words, actions and behaviors can be.
My BF is going through what you describe and I feel badly for him. I just keep telling him to be the best possible dad he can be. He may never be Dad of the Year, but that's what I was getting at earlier: That even his best may not ever be "good enough" for what the other adult wants. And when the other adult is still actively using and abusing drugs and alcohol, that makes it even worse
I am trying to figure out how I fit into all this with the children in my life. What not to do and what not to say and how much distance to keep between me and them. It is painful for me because I love children and want to help them because in my mind, they are suffering.
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: PA
Posts: 985
We are all doing the best we can is how I try to look at all kinds of situations. None of us really can honestly say that we know what to do or say etc all the time. (or else someone would be very rich right now having written a book) ha ha
My stance with any children is to listen, help them identify the choices and then help them figure out what they can control in the situation as a next step.
It sounds like you have to determine what works for your sanity in terms of how involved you want to be. What I have read reinforces that positive contact with an adult for a child in a dysfunction situation bolsters their ability to be strong and hopefully come through the situation more or less intact. I hope that made sense.
I would reinforce that last parag from my own life. I had a lot of adults outside the family who gave me positive reinforcement and helped me to acknowledge my strengths. Teachers, ministers and people in the church, the family physician, neighbors, friends of my family, extended family members. I ususally introduce myself as "the child that was raise by a village".
My stance with any children is to listen, help them identify the choices and then help them figure out what they can control in the situation as a next step.
It sounds like you have to determine what works for your sanity in terms of how involved you want to be. What I have read reinforces that positive contact with an adult for a child in a dysfunction situation bolsters their ability to be strong and hopefully come through the situation more or less intact. I hope that made sense.
I would reinforce that last parag from my own life. I had a lot of adults outside the family who gave me positive reinforcement and helped me to acknowledge my strengths. Teachers, ministers and people in the church, the family physician, neighbors, friends of my family, extended family members. I ususally introduce myself as "the child that was raise by a village".
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Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Bristol TN/VA
Posts: 12,431
You know...I do think you have the right to say "I am going to end this conversation now because I do not let people talk ugly to me or around me."...just very calmly and then end it.
That is a powerful lesson!
When I was with the XAABF, he resumed visitation with his children (they were young) after not having seen them for awhile. They were good kids! But one of them liked to ignore me when I told him to do something. and I talked to him just as if he was one of my own. "Don't sit there like you didn't hear me because you did. Now I asked you to do xxx and that is what you are going to do. We are all helping here and I need you to help too. Now get up and xxx."
Just giving all kids involved as much as normal as I could is best, I think.
People do not put up with kids acting like the one in question with you..so, no, I don't think you should tolerate and allow it.
I did let my kids act out their pain in ways I never would have but I knew where it was coming from and just worked to resume our relationship. You case is different.
That is a powerful lesson!
When I was with the XAABF, he resumed visitation with his children (they were young) after not having seen them for awhile. They were good kids! But one of them liked to ignore me when I told him to do something. and I talked to him just as if he was one of my own. "Don't sit there like you didn't hear me because you did. Now I asked you to do xxx and that is what you are going to do. We are all helping here and I need you to help too. Now get up and xxx."
Just giving all kids involved as much as normal as I could is best, I think.
People do not put up with kids acting like the one in question with you..so, no, I don't think you should tolerate and allow it.
I did let my kids act out their pain in ways I never would have but I knew where it was coming from and just worked to resume our relationship. You case is different.
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Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 1,057
L2L, I finally had time to read through this thread. There is a lot of wisdom here.
I'm sorry you're having to deal with the effects of someone else's manipulation on those kids. To answer your original question, I would just say this. Kids need to know that even when we don't love their behaviors, we still love them. Especially kids who are hurting or full of shame because of things (people) that are beyond their control.
Kids learn so much more from our actions than they do our words. You're a good lady with a big heart and it sounds to me like you're doing all the right things. Keep role modeling healthy behavior and don't be afraid to discipline with love and a calm tone. No adult has to accept unreasonable behavior from any child of any age.
Kids need healthy boundaries to make them feel secure. Even when they act like they don't want them, they need them and will come to appreciate them.
One other thought...is Ala-Teen an option for the older one?
I'm sorry you're having to deal with the effects of someone else's manipulation on those kids. To answer your original question, I would just say this. Kids need to know that even when we don't love their behaviors, we still love them. Especially kids who are hurting or full of shame because of things (people) that are beyond their control.
Kids learn so much more from our actions than they do our words. You're a good lady with a big heart and it sounds to me like you're doing all the right things. Keep role modeling healthy behavior and don't be afraid to discipline with love and a calm tone. No adult has to accept unreasonable behavior from any child of any age.
Kids need healthy boundaries to make them feel secure. Even when they act like they don't want them, they need them and will come to appreciate them.
One other thought...is Ala-Teen an option for the older one?
To thine own self be true.
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 5,924
Thank you HWC. I am going to do the best I can do. It is difficult because I have never been despised by a child before. And especially a child who has only met me maybe three times. I can only guess that the other parent feels threatened by me and so she tells the child bad things about me. I am a very maternal person and I just LOVE being with kids, especially little ones, because we have so much fun. But this one is just being manipulated and I feel so bad for him but I know there is nothing I can do. And I have to protect myself from what I know is the alcoholic's toxicity coming through him. I have never seen anything like it in my life. I can only imagine how this is affecting him 
As for AlAteen, there are none in this area at all. There used to be one but it was disbanded.
Thank you again for your feedback and advice.
As for AlAteen, there are none in this area at all. There used to be one but it was disbanded.
Thank you again for your feedback and advice.
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Join Date: May 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 1,149
much of this may well be the normal step parent stuff that goes on, some of it normal parent stuff that goes on. I don't know at what point in/past the divorce your bf is, and this is NOT a moral judgement as I don't happen to think marriage has any special status, but for this very reason I think it wise to make sure someone with kids is very divorced before getting involved with them; things can get ugly around the finances even when the emotions are well and truly sorted out.
his relationship with his kids is none of your business, again this isn't a judgement, just the healthy way to deal with it. What they beleive about the divorce isn't any of your business either, nor what they think of you. How they act towards you is your business, not because you are in a relationship with their dad, but because you are a human being worthy of courtesy and civility.
some other things: they aren't making you feel anything, you are feeling something as a reaction to what they are doing.
very few adults consciously manipulate children in order to harm someone else.
kids draw their own conclusions in situations, from limited information. My son currently believes that I am being nasty to their dad, because I put the phone down on him and won't answer his questions. ex uses supervised visitation as an excuse to interrogate me and poke through my stuff, on the way out when the kids were in bed he called me a ***** in a very weird voice. I put the phone down because he called me a bitch. Son, with not the whole story concludes that I am being difficult, ex isn't fostering this or manipulating the kids to beleive it, son has concluded this all on his own.
Kids over-hear things, adults in a divorce are human beings, they sound off on the phone to their friends when the kids are asleep, kids wake up, or walk into a room, they hear stuff.
Even when they are told something, the adult is only usually sharing their reality, often in a moment of weakness, often at the end of their tether, they make mistakes and get drawn into defending themselves or go on a rant. Of course kids don't need to hear it, but it isn't consciously manipulative.
I am the child of divorced parents. My mother very much wanted me to be on her side, my dad was awful to her, I very quickly decided that none of this was my business, all I needed to know was how they were as parents to me, the rights and wrongs of their relationship and its end was irrelevent to my relationship with both of them. I am still, 20 years later, unwilling to discuss either with the other one. They still get on each other's nerves. not my business.
The same goes for my kids, their dad was a violent, abusive, obnoxious, racist, misoginistic, addicted, lying, stealing, B*****D of a husband. He's an unreliable parent, but he loves them and they love him. As I enforce boundaries in my interactions with him, they don't have to understand them, they will draw their own conclusions, I hope eventually, possibly when they themselves are parents they will understand what I did or not but respect my right to choose what I put up with in my own life. Defending myself, manipulates them further.
you can draw a boundary or go no contact or detach, whatever you need,
If you believe the children are at risk I believe we have an obligation to inform those who can investigate that and find out the reality. but check your motives.
his relationship with his kids is none of your business, again this isn't a judgement, just the healthy way to deal with it. What they beleive about the divorce isn't any of your business either, nor what they think of you. How they act towards you is your business, not because you are in a relationship with their dad, but because you are a human being worthy of courtesy and civility.
some other things: they aren't making you feel anything, you are feeling something as a reaction to what they are doing.
very few adults consciously manipulate children in order to harm someone else.
kids draw their own conclusions in situations, from limited information. My son currently believes that I am being nasty to their dad, because I put the phone down on him and won't answer his questions. ex uses supervised visitation as an excuse to interrogate me and poke through my stuff, on the way out when the kids were in bed he called me a ***** in a very weird voice. I put the phone down because he called me a bitch. Son, with not the whole story concludes that I am being difficult, ex isn't fostering this or manipulating the kids to beleive it, son has concluded this all on his own.
Kids over-hear things, adults in a divorce are human beings, they sound off on the phone to their friends when the kids are asleep, kids wake up, or walk into a room, they hear stuff.
Even when they are told something, the adult is only usually sharing their reality, often in a moment of weakness, often at the end of their tether, they make mistakes and get drawn into defending themselves or go on a rant. Of course kids don't need to hear it, but it isn't consciously manipulative.
I am the child of divorced parents. My mother very much wanted me to be on her side, my dad was awful to her, I very quickly decided that none of this was my business, all I needed to know was how they were as parents to me, the rights and wrongs of their relationship and its end was irrelevent to my relationship with both of them. I am still, 20 years later, unwilling to discuss either with the other one. They still get on each other's nerves. not my business.
The same goes for my kids, their dad was a violent, abusive, obnoxious, racist, misoginistic, addicted, lying, stealing, B*****D of a husband. He's an unreliable parent, but he loves them and they love him. As I enforce boundaries in my interactions with him, they don't have to understand them, they will draw their own conclusions, I hope eventually, possibly when they themselves are parents they will understand what I did or not but respect my right to choose what I put up with in my own life. Defending myself, manipulates them further.
you can draw a boundary or go no contact or detach, whatever you need,
If you believe the children are at risk I believe we have an obligation to inform those who can investigate that and find out the reality. but check your motives.
To thine own self be true.
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 5,924
Thanks JenT. I agree with everything you have said. To explain, I do not think this is "normal" behavior on the part of the other parent, or the child just plain overhearing things. Have you ever had to have a conversation with a person on crack cocaine? Because that is what this parent has acted like every time I have seen her.
The child's anger and what he talks about to his father has become too much of a pattern, and the level of detail that the child gives makes it very clear what she has told him and under what context. The child has actually said, "My mom told me XYZ," regarding very adult matters. It has become apparent that she is using the children to get them on her imaginary side of her imaginary fight with her EX (and me).
I am not saying she does not have a right to be frustrated or angry or whatever she wants to be. What I am saying is that the child is affected and I do not know what to do, if anything. I also wanted to see if anyone else has experienced this specific situation where a child talks like an angry alcoholic, and how did it make them feel? Because it makes my heart race.
The point for me is that I believe he is being manipulated by a parent with a long, clear, documented history of drug and alcohol abuse, concerning matters between herself and other adults that a ten year old so obviously does not belong involved in or even knowing about. It is damaging his relationship with his father. I, because I have learned through trial and error dealing with my own codependency in these types of situations, stand back from the situation and do not involve myself in the family dynamic.
The reason I posted was likely because of my own feelings of guilt for NOT getting involved and wanting to help the child. God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Yes, I agree, adults have responsibilities toward the well-being of children but my experience with this has shown me that the state and the courts do NOT want to get involved in family situations especially when the children are clothed, fed, and get good grades in school. I have "done the right thing" in the past in this type of situation and it has only backfired and SEVERELY.
Thanks again for posting. Any additional ESH or perspective is appreciated.
The child's anger and what he talks about to his father has become too much of a pattern, and the level of detail that the child gives makes it very clear what she has told him and under what context. The child has actually said, "My mom told me XYZ," regarding very adult matters. It has become apparent that she is using the children to get them on her imaginary side of her imaginary fight with her EX (and me).
I am not saying she does not have a right to be frustrated or angry or whatever she wants to be. What I am saying is that the child is affected and I do not know what to do, if anything. I also wanted to see if anyone else has experienced this specific situation where a child talks like an angry alcoholic, and how did it make them feel? Because it makes my heart race.
The point for me is that I believe he is being manipulated by a parent with a long, clear, documented history of drug and alcohol abuse, concerning matters between herself and other adults that a ten year old so obviously does not belong involved in or even knowing about. It is damaging his relationship with his father. I, because I have learned through trial and error dealing with my own codependency in these types of situations, stand back from the situation and do not involve myself in the family dynamic.
The reason I posted was likely because of my own feelings of guilt for NOT getting involved and wanting to help the child. God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Yes, I agree, adults have responsibilities toward the well-being of children but my experience with this has shown me that the state and the courts do NOT want to get involved in family situations especially when the children are clothed, fed, and get good grades in school. I have "done the right thing" in the past in this type of situation and it has only backfired and SEVERELY.
Thanks again for posting. Any additional ESH or perspective is appreciated.
I Love Who I Am
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Midwest
Posts: 3,210
I've learned to take none of it personally which helps me to enforce my boundaries.
L2L I"m sorry you're stressed out by this madness. My experience has been when other peoples lives affect me I have to make boundaries. You've seen me struggle with that all summer, with the neighbors. It's hard to disentangle, but my sanity is what's most important.
For me, it takes becoming convinced (or remembering) that I cannot "assist or help" these families in any way. That's when I really freak out, initially. But once that boundary is made and I turn those folks over to their higher power, things are much better.
I could be wrong, but what I think I hear you saying is you're so worried about these kids that you dont' want to let go?
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Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Kansas
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Originally Posted by Learn2Live 
The point for me is that I believe he is being manipulated by a parent with a long, clear, documented history of drug and alcohol abuse, concerning matters between herself and other adults that a ten year old so obviously does not belong involved in or even knowing about. It is damaging his relationship with his father. I, because I have learned through trial and error dealing with my own codependency in these types of situations, stand back from the situation and do not involve myself in the family dynamic.
I had a gal I was sponsoring, and cut loose recently, for several reasons.
Unfortunately she only lives 2 houses down from me, and after several phone calls one day, and then her showing up on my front door step a few minutes after the last call, I told her we needed to sit down and talk.
I told her very clearly that I have paid my dues both in being an active alcoholic/addict, and in being a screaming raving untreated codependent.
I have worked hard to get to where I am today. No one handed it to me, no one pandered to me, and people loved me enough to call me on my BS over the years.
She just can't quite decide what her priorities are in life; recovery is not top on the list.
I can't work with that.
She made the decision to drive to another state to bail her meth-addicted ABF out of jail and bring him back home, thus exposing her children (not his) to more of his verbal abuse.
I can't work with that.
She made the decision that even though she's in 'recovery' (and I use that term lightly), it's okay for him to be bringing money into the home from illegal activities because he's not conducting the activities in the home, and that money is paying bills.
I can't work with that.
I have enough in my life going on, working a program of recovery in all areas, that I do not need to take on someone's else's crap, whether it's their own active addiction/alcoholism, or someone else's that they are tied to.
It took me a long time to recognize that I was addicted to internal chaos, and that I did not know how to just be quiet inside, to sit with myself, and be comfortable with the absence of any sort of chaos.
All those years I wondered why I was so exhausted and stressed! Duh!
I've got enough dysfunction with my own family members.
I don't believe I need any more than that.
Just my two cents.
To thine own self be true.
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 5,924
Thanks you guys. I needed all these posts. I think I was beating myself up, thinking I was being too sensitive (they're children for goodness sake and here I am putting up boundaries from children?). I started to blame myself for not being able to handle this. But you're right, there are some things "I can't work with" as Freedom says. It's NOT the children I am putting the boundary up against, it's the adults. Thanks for reminding me Transform about the neighbor girl; I had forgotten about that. I know I automatically think there is something WRONG with me when problems come up in relationships.
No, I'm good thanks. I'm pretty sure it was me beating myself up for not being able to handle other people's chaos that comes into my life occasionally, thinking I'm a freak of nature.
Thanks again for your help.
what I think I hear you saying is you're so worried about these kids that you dont' want to let go?
Thanks again for your help.
I Love Who I Am
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Midwest
Posts: 3,210
I'm pretty sure it was me beating myself up for not being able to handle other people's chaos that comes into my life occasionally, thinking I'm a freak of nature.
Good. I"m glad you've worked through this lil Sis..
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