freya

So, this afternoon I got an e-mail from my ex regrading some financial stuff. Basically, it appears that we are going down the road toward her refusing to pay me back quite a bit of money that I lent her when she was unemployed. And actually, although I am, of course, not happy about that, I am not exactly surprised or super-stressed out about it either.

But, nonetheless, I was/am very disturbed by her e-mail...and, as I've been thinking about it and talking to people about it, I realized that the thing that disturbs me so much about it is its totally delusional, hateful, blaming, nasty, you're-out-to-get-me-and-cheat-me tone. I mean, she's sent a couple of other e-mails with that tone -- but I didn't read them. (I only read this one because it was short and did actually contain info I needed.) And I did have that one terrible conversation on the phone with her when she sounded that same way.

..and, yeah, "that way" really triggers something in me.

It literally makes me cringe....and disturbs me to the point that I feel a bit nauseous.

On the one hand, there is something about it that is like a wounded, deranged animal, just lashing out at anyone or anything that comes near, and also, there's that sense that there is like no real heart-and-soul human being there....and there is most certainly not any connection to the more healthy relatively-sober (as opposed to "dry") person I fell in love with. And I just so don't want to have anything to do with the "person" who talks that way and exudes that cold, harsh, deathly blighting energy.....not only do I not want anything to do with it -- I really truly don't even want to be reminded that it exists...that toxic morass of pain and misery and anger and selfishness.....

Actually, to me, that is like the pure, undiluted "ISM" of alcoholISM....Its very essence....

..and there is no way to get through to it, no way to reason with it.....everything about it and/or about trying to relate to it in any way is hopeless and pointless....and just sick, sick, sick......and interacting with it or being in its presence in any way is just plain deadly.

..but, still none of that fully explains why it's SO disturbing to me...When she was in her dry drunk several years ago, she was that "person" almost all the time and she sounded like "that" almost all the time and it was just so hard to live with and deal with.....so maybe "hearing" that from her just brings back too much of that old trauma......

POSSESSION......that's exactly what it's like!!!!..and I think that there was a thread somewhere before about how people under the influence of alcoholISM are like people possessed by a demon in a really bad horror film...and how that makes it worse to "lose" someone to this disease than to death....



freya

sailorjohn

I guess for me, the thing that bothers me is that it's so senseless. And generally the folks that have it the worst, like my ex-all of my ex's, God bless 'em-seriously-had such horrific childhoods.

If find thinking of them-and myself-as having the core of a wounded child really helps. Something I read here.

The Pain Stops: when you stop looking at the person you love as the person you love, and you begin to see them, not as a partner, a lover, or a best friend, but as a human being with the strengths and weaknesses and even the core of a child.

Gypsy Feet

(((((freya)))))

I know the last time I drank I was possessed by something. For me, I guess the difference between physically burying someone and watching them die inside is that when they are physically dead, they are beyond us. I still catch myself thinking of my (ex) the way he was, and wishing for a minute he would be that guy again.

I agree with you honey, so hard to go through

Ago

In my experience when you tell someone you love them, and offer what you have to offer, and being codie, I suspect you tried to walk with her through her demons, and offered support, unconditional love, understanding etc, and then you leave, my experience, when dealing with a sick person of the type you describe, is why the phrase:

"Hell Hath No Fury Like a Woman Scorned"

was coined

I am not being facetious, I have never seen anything so evil, nasty and angry, and just jaw droppingly nasty as my unrecovered exgf, and FYI it lasted a year with the barbs still being tossed out.

Time to work on Freya so your next choice is a healthier one, because I learned that's who "she" is, ya know?

GiveLove

One of our culture's more lame expressions, imho. My X was a "man scorned" and he was among the nastiest, most furious things I'd ever met. Women certainly don't have a corner on the fury market...we have a number of posters describing scorned alcoholics who are breaking things and hitting people.

Anyway, Freya, I'm sorry you're going through this. Your post jostled a few memories loose in my head and I remembered, suddenly, viscerally, exactly how that felt. I remember thinking at the time that I wished I didn't care - about anyone. I could be free of that godawful feeling if I just didn't give a sh** HOW someone chose to make their life turn out...

Not caring isn't in the cards for me, or, it sounds like, for you. Sigh.

Hoping that this spike of emotion is just another one of those strangely-wrapped gifts that will serve some useful purpose in returning you to complete sanity. It was for me, but it took a while. But til then, sending you my best.

Ago

Oh absolutely, I didn't mean it sexist, I apologize if it came across that way, person scorned, it's probably similar to every single article about physical and emotional abuse using the pronoun "he" when in fact a look around here will show that there are plenty of females that emotionally abuse and physically hit men, this whole alcoholic/codependent/abuser/scorned person is definitely an equal opportunity destroyer of people, homes and relationships.

So sorry if I came across as sexist, it's just what went through my mind since I have don't have any experience with breaking up with men.

MissFixit

I am laughing at Ago right now...

I hate that phrase as it was said about me once after I was lied to, told the guy that he was a jerk and quit speaking to him. No fight or bickering. He and his "friends' used that phrase in reference to me for not be friendly any longer. Men tend to use that phrase to degrade women and write them off as "crazy."

I understand what you meant by it, and I don't take it personally, but when saying it to women, many won't appreciate it (fyi).

There is quite a bit of referring to male A's and how "they" do this and that...I actually have felt (codie) guilt for the men here reading those things.

However, I think it is really cool to have a place where we can all share honestly. Cuts through a bunch of BS.

Hugs to all!

GiveLove

We always struggle with the right balance here, with the majority of our posters being women! It would be a full time job to act as the "They Police," (i.e "they never do this" and "they always do that") trying to keep everything PC......

But expanded to both genders - truly, people who perceive they've been wronged (especially those who are accustomed to turning to chemicals to make life right again) can be some of the most horrible and sad individuals to deal with. Heartbreaking if you once respected and cared for them.

JenT1968

I know for me I experience witnessing expressions of this sort of behaviour, whether directed at me or not, as if the very air air were being poisoned, on high alert, flooded with adrenalin: disturbed, threatened. This is clearly an over-reaction, and the best progress I am making right now, is to "talk myself down" quicker after the experience, so your detachment and insight is impressive to me.

Again for me I know that this is to do with (yawn, I'm so predictable) family of origin issues, as my parents had hate-filled, clever, destroying, toxic arguments that lasted for weeks, that were all about hurting and damaging and being right and winning and being agressive and at the same time being the aggreived one. When people get toxic, bad things happen and I am a child desperately frantically trying not to be abandoned.

for me, my disturbance has nothing to do with the person who is exhibiting these traits or my feelings towards them.

Still Waters

Yeah, I know.

And I've been pondering the exact same thing lately. WHY does it make me react in this manner, mixed in with a healthy dose of FEAR. Why?

I really don't know, I haven't figured it out yet. I just have to keep telling myself that he can't harm me, not really, not anymore (for the most part)...so that flight or fight response I get I just need to learn to..let it pass I suppose.

Eventually I'll get to the point where I don't have to have any contact at all. That will be a good day.

freya

Stillwaters: Yeah, that's another really weird thing about it for me -- it does have that "this has got to be about really old wounding" feeling to it, but the truth is that I was blessed to have a relatively healthy and functioning family of origin and I'm close to certain no one in my immediate family ever behaved like that. Actually, although my dad had a lot of mental health/emotional immaturity issues from growing up in a very alcoholic extended family, his thing was more the whining, crying, poor-me, poor-me-ism. And, as a general rule, I do tend to react more strongly and more negatively to that kind of cr*p. In fact, when I experience the nasty, delusional, hatefulness from people with whom I am not particularly close, it really dosn't tend to bother me. I just take it as a "get away quick" sign and I don't have any problem doing that....and I don't get disturbed about it at all -- they're out of my face and it's done.

But, for some reason, with people I'm close to, it's just not so easy -- at least not emotionally/internally. I do tend not to have a problem taking care of myself and getting away from them physically/externally. I mean, lilke yesterday, I had no problem replying to her e-mail very calmly and matter of factly...and, of course, I'll stick by what I said in my reply......but internally the disturbed, unsettled thing is just there and just "yuck."

Also, Andrew, as far as the working on myself thing goes, obviously I am doing that...and I have been doing it all along in my relationship with my ex and, as I've posted elsewhere, a lot of good progress/growth has been happening for me...especially over the last 6 months or so. And the truth is that "working on myself" is pretty much what I do in general, regardless of whether things in my life are going well or going poorly -- again a gift -- or a curse, depending on how one looks at it -- of my family of origin. Not woking on one's "stuff" was not an option. But, when it comes to romantic/sexual attraction there seems to be, for me, several unaviodable "problems."

First off, I am close to 100% convinced that Harville Hendricks' idea that we are subconsciously and immediately drawn to people whose core wounding issues compliment and trigger our own is absolutely true. So, I am, always have been, and most likely always will be attracted to masculine energied people who trigger my "daddy" / "no one to take care of me" issues.

Now, clearly the most effective, rational "solution" to that "problem" would be for me to deliberately seek out relationships with people to whom I am not attracted, but whom I know are good, caring people who are committed to working on whatever issues they happen to have. THAT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. Mostly because that idea has no appeal to me whatsoever (and actually feels to me to be pretty much the height of personal dishonesty and lack of authenticity), but also because I have had the dubious pleasure of knowing a couple of people who have made that choice, and, in all honesty, I cannot imagine a smaller, more life-in-death existence.

Also, I tend to go along with Hendrick's theory that it is by seeking out and being in relationship with those people who woundedness compliments and triggers our own that we have the best chance and motivation to heal. The trick, of course, is that, in order for this to work, and for the relationship to last and to be relatively fulfilling and "happy," both parties have to be willing to consistently be working both on their own stuff and on the relationship.

This is the part where I always get caught up. I do real good in finding people who are working on themselves. In fact, if I go back and look at the major relationships in my life, I got into every single one when the other person was in a period of big personal growth and change. Oh, yeah, I love that and it is very attractive to me emotionally and intellectually. So, things start out and it's great. But, what tends to happen is that, for most people, once they reach a point at which whatever pain or discontent started them working on some change to begin with is somewhat alleviated, they get complacent and stop working...and then, as we all know, once they've stopped working for awhile, they start to slip back into whatever old cr*p got them into change mode in the first place. And the worst thing about this is that the relationship itself seems to be a major contributing factor to their complacency!!!!!!

So, what basically happens is it gets to a point where the other person is very obviously slipping backward and I am very obviously moving forward and I'm not willing to stop moving forward in order to stay with her/him. And, it seems that, for me, things tend to drag on longer than they probably should because it's very hard for me to recognize, believe and accept the fact that the other person is just not interested in moving forward and there's nothing I can do about it.

So, I don't really know what to do about that.....like I said, getting into relationship with someone to whom I am not attracted on that romantic/sexual level is not an option for me...and really, I'm totally not the kind of person who's going to be able to make and successfully implement a decision to just not try relationships anymore...So that pretty much seems to leave only the option of trying to get seriously involved only with people who are truly committed to moving forward in their personal growth/healing/spiritual journeys and are not likely to give that up for any reason. But, really, how can I know that? That seems an awful lot like looking for a guarantee or trying to see the future and if I attempt to do those things then I am moving in on HP's job again........

freya

P.S........about the "hell hath no fury"......Not offended at all. Seems my love of accuracy in using language and quoting sources definitely trumps my politics in this regard!!!!!!

MissFixit

Freya,

That is exactly how I feel. I too am always working on myself and I have been in relationships with men who claim they are and do to an extent, but become complacent. I have wished that I could be like that...just chill and not wanting to move forward. It is like it is never enough. Not from another person, but from me.

I have never said that to anyone, but thought it. I have been told by family and friends (only males said this to me, the women and male therapists push me ahead for some reason) that I need to accept life/work/etc are it is as everyone has to settle (they used different words).

grrl77

Hey Freya,

I can totally relate to your post. I'm new to this board and I've posted a couple things, and feel this place is a haven, of sorts. I've been to Al-Anon meetings - one real good one near where I live. Haven't been in awhile, but this is nice, because I can check it out whenever I want. Anyway!

I was with an alcoholic for about a year. We had met online, and were doing the long distance relationship. He came clean about having a problem with alcohol, but expressed interest in wanting to get help. He hated the monster he is when he drinks, he hated what it did to us, etc. He managed to find out a resource through work, who pointed him in the direction of AA. He went as far as to copy down the nearest location on a piece of paper that he kept on his desk. That's as far as it ever went. I held on to the man that I fell in love with, the sober guy that was around sometimes, and how I got to see the core of the man then, that I wanted to eventually marry. He'd set a timeline up for when he was going to get help, but then broke it off with me two weeks before the date, citing that we were just incompatible. It broke my heart; everything I had held on to - the getting help, I was going to be this girl that was THE GIRL THAT STUCK BY HIS SIDE THROUGH THICK AND THIN! You know the one, right? It's the girl that ever girl wants to be. And when it didn't happen, I was crushed. I took it *so* personally. I still do, sometimes. I catch myself thinking, "If he loved me and hated what it did to us so much, why didn't he at least TRY to quit?"

I could relate to your post, because just a few nights ago, he reached out to me via instant messenger. We were talking about general stuff, and then he brought up this bit about my awesome black dress I wore to a jazz show we hit up together this past July. You'd think a guy wouldn't have a problem with a pretty girl in a pretty dress in their presence, right? I mean, most wouldn't. You see, I heard about how "wildly overdressed" I was, and how "impractical" I was for dressing that way. It was a jazz show, downtown, at 9:30pm in a nice venue. This is how one dresses, or you can dress casually. In fact, I told him about my dress before I even showed up. Showed a picture of it to him, even. He probably doesn't remember. But, to top it all off? He told me his feelings "went away" for me after that trip, becuase I'd always talked about how I was such a "casual girl" (I'm mainly jeans/tshirt) and this was just something he wasn't expecting. Now I know the real deal - he doesn't care about himself, he doesn't love himself, and I struck a chord because I made him feel like a douchebag. I looked fantastic, and I was a reminder of something he wants so bad, but cannot have because of his problem. It's like he's right there on the brink, you know? He wants what everyone else wants - he just knows he can't have it, unless he quits. It's dreadfully sad, to me.

I look at this man that I fell in love with, and it feels as though I've lost him forever. Every once in awhile, I see the guy I fell for, but more times than not, I'm dealing with exactly what you said - this ISM, posession, over him. He says the most ridiculous things - he can't let go of this dress thing, he's told me I wasn't critical enough, I wasn't this, or that for him - I've heard him carry on about ridiculous things that are just so... out of touch/off base, and it just makes me shake my head and go, "Wow."

Sorry, I have a tedency to ramble. Sure glad I found this site.

Still Waters

No, mine didn't either. Some codependency I learned from my Mom, just avoiding and putting up with my Dad rather than kicking him in the butt when he needed it...but that's the extent of it. I don't think I can point to ANY family of origin issues to explain it.

It's all me :/

honoryourself

haha, I often wonder how I ended up all messed up like this.. I never saw any family issues in my house.. everyone seemed great. I mean on occasion my mom would get frustrated for being 'every body's maid' but she was a stay at home mom and did a great job of that. Maybe the enmeshing came in there, maybe my dad didn't give enough emotional support. I don't know.. I've always wondered how I ended up so unable to determine who exactly I am.

gowest

[QUOTE=freya;2430074]

Now, clearly the most effective, rational "solution" to that "problem" would be for me to deliberately seek out relationships with people to whom I am not attracted, but whom I know are good, caring people who are committed to working on whatever issues they happen to have. THAT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. Mostly because that idea has no appeal to me whatsoever (and actually feels to me to be pretty much the height of personal dishonesty and lack of authenticity), but also because I have had the dubious pleasure of knowing a couple of people who have made that choice, and, in all honesty, I cannot imagine a smaller, more life-in-death existence.

So, I don't really know what to do about that.....like I said, getting into relationship with someone to whom I am not attracted on that romantic/sexual level is not an option for me...and really, I'm totally not the kind of person who's going to be able to make and successfully implement a decision to just not try relationships anymore...So that pretty much seems to leave only the option of trying to get seriously involved only with people who are truly committed to moving forward in their personal growth/healing/spiritual journeys and are not likely to give that up for any reason. But, really, how can I know that? That seems an awful lot like looking for a guarantee or trying to see the future and if I attempt to do those things then I am moving in on HP's job again........

freya

WOW! thanks for this post. I could have written the whole thing from top to bottom.

I would say that this is a regular topic of conversation for me with myself, my therapist and my friends.

I specifically have tried dating various people who I thought were "good" caring people but low on the passion meter and I agree that staying in a relationship without physical attraction for me is like dying a slow death. I in fact tried it pretty seriously with one person and it was a disaster. I'd rather be alone.

I'm glad to hear that it isn't just me that struggles with this issue.

Kittyboo

I also agree 100% with the physical attraction aspect. Chemistry is VERY important to me, as I think it is to most.

Ironically this was something I was just discussing with my therapist the other day. And I told her it really bothered me that I was so physically attracted to my A, and other men who have been bad for me in the past.

And I think back to the very beginning, and in the beginning he SEEMED perfect. Omgoodness, so intelligent, sensitive, caring......yada yada yada (and like a little innocent boy needing love. blah! LOL)
But in the beginning I felt STRONG chemistry for this man. When I THOUGHT he was a GOOD decent man. But then he started to show his true colors....and I preferred to only focus on the black in white, ignoring everything else.

I think that we shouldn't deprive ourselves of wanting and feeling chemistry with and for someone.....BUT at the first RED FLAGS...we need to RUN RUN RUN and not stick around to see what else comes! Because there will always be chemistry with someone else, we just need to give someone else the chance.

Ago

I was in a long term relationship with a WONDERFUL woman, I mean STELLAR, she is my best friend today, 2? 3? years after we broke up, it was amazing...except...umm....well....you know...

So when we broke up I literally looked up at the sky and said "OK God, no more of this emotional stability lame in the fireworks dept I want HotSex and drama"

God answered

resoundingly

I remember calling a buddy of mine, describing this new relationship a few years ago, and I says to him "I'm not sure if she's the best thing that has ever happened to me or the worst"

He says, "Well Andrew, you have always been a stupid man with a limited imagination....what makes you think she's not both?"

Be careful what you wish for, because OMFG my prayers were answered

husbandofacoa

I started alanon several years ago because of someone treating me the way you describe your ex treating you. I have some degree of recovery from the years in alanon. I don't want to be around anyone who tries to treat me this way. I don't try to argue or plead my case. What they think does not matter. It is good feeling to be able to detach from this.

As far as the financial issue: What is your serenity worth? Is it enough money to be all stirred up over? Are you going to loose it anyway? If so let it go and to hell with it. It is only money. But don't get sucked in again. I let a brother-in-law beat me out of $50 bucks years ago. It was a good investment. I always had an excuse to never loan him money again.

If she is treats you this badly, why continue the relationship? I want relationships with people who are good to me and good for me. I am through with people who are poison to me.

My 2 cents worth.

freya

OK, so then, what is your strategy at this point????? I mean, other than maybe praying for "hot sex and no drama?" LOL!.......or are you really meaning to imply that hot sex is inseparable from high drama????? Seriously, Andrew, I know that you work hard on yourself and on these issues (and you are definitely not stupid!) -- So, where are you with this right now???? What do you think the other/next/remaining options are when it comes to "trying to choose well"???????

freya