smacked

I wish you strength with this. "Help" in this case = harm. I know it's probably hard for your friends to see this, as well as your bf. A suicidal alcoholic needs much more help than a stay at a home where he can continue to drink himself to death and not get the help he so desperately will need. What a horrible situation for him to place you and your friends in. This is his deal.. no one elses. Please stay strong, and know that you're doing right by him.

NeedHelpInMI

My HTB just came home from work, and I asked him to read our thread - after reading all of your advice, he is agreeing with me, and will stick with our decision of not allowing John to move in. Now we have our united front, and come Sunday or Monday, we'll be meeting with our friends to talk about John, along with the helpful information what shelters and assistance John can tap into. I'll let you all know what happens from the meeting next week... Much thanks!

gerryP

Hi NeedHelp,

As an ex drinker of 25 years, I got myself in all kinds of trouble by the end of it all where I decided I was done and didn't want to live the way I was anymore.

For what it might be worth, I would meet with John and your other friends and have him discuss his plan. Is he just looking for a roof over his head, or is he serious about getting sober and staying sober ans well as pulling a life together. If he's serious about the latter, then perhaps you could all offer the options available in MI respecting rehabs, counseling etc. Have him commit to this and set rules for afterward when he will likely need somewhere to stay. Rules such as absolutely no drinking or using while in your homes or coming back to your homes from drinking or using or he's out, no questions asked.

It's a tough one for sure, but he's lucky to have friends such as yourselves IF he is interested in getting sober and becoming a healthy participant in life.

Mitsy

I agree with many of the others. I would NOT, under any circumstances, allow this freeloader into your home. If he's drinking even ONE beer, that indicates he isn't off the booze. There's a reason he's burned so many bridges in the past and lost so many jobs--he's still a drunk who wants a 100th chance. Don't let him hornswaggle you into taking him in and put your foot down with your husband's inability to say NO. You can't afford to take this guy in (emotionally or financially). I urge you to listen to that gut instinct. It's there for a reason.

TakingCharge999

If I were you... (famous words)

I would send this link to all the friends

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...cters-1-a.html

Help for an alcoholic means

> If you want to get to an AA meeting I can offer a drive.
> Here is the address of Salvation army/nearest shelter
> If you want to spend time together in an activity that does not involve alcohol you are welcome.

That is alcoholism, everybody feels guilty but him, everybody feels pain while he gets a free plane ticket and a beer. Infront of you.

If you really want to help stop saving him from himself.

It was great to show this thread to your partner! Perhaps you can show it to your other friends too?

Also.. congrats on your future wedding !

veryregretful

my situation is a little different. my ah left last night because i told him no he can't spend the night here cuz he has no where else to go. i just spoke with my friend and as far as she know he slept in his (my) truck. I don't think many people will let him stay with him. I feel very bad and cry about it but he did this to himself. if is wasn't an alcholic then he would still be here, warm and with family. even his twin brother doesn't want him to stay with him because he drinks. so sad but maybe this will be my AH's wake up call. I don't want anything to happen to him, i still love him, but i'm not going against why he left just because i feel bad it's cold out and he is sleeping in his truck.

my reply may not really have anything to do with the original post but i just wanted add what i wrote. my mind is a bunch of marbles right now. lol

take care and good luck

NeedHelpInMI

This is excellent advice - I'd be more than happy to help pave John's way to recovery by offering rides to AA and providing addresses, and I do plan to still be a presence in his life as a friend, just not as a roommate - selfishly, this would lessen my own guilt about not caving into his living-arrangement demands. Thank you!

naive

needshelp-

i just want to say that i am impressed with your approach to john's dilemna. you researched, you reached out, you asked questions, you shared with your partner, you came to a united decision...

and now, you are learning how to help but not enable john.

wow. well done!

URMYEVERYTHING

Hi NeedHelp... to SR!

So far you are doing the right thing. You are making the right decision for you and your family. :codiepolice

Pelican

Welcome to the SR family!

You have received some excellent support and advice already.

I just want to point out that you and your HTB are no match for the manipulation tactics of an active alcoholic. Look at your original post:


I visited John yesterday, took him to lunch, and he ordered a beer

You allowed him to order beer on your limited pocketbook. It will happen again.

Addicts will say anything to make you believe they need your support. They will do anything to make sure they can continue their addiction without consequences.

In Alanon, we learn about the 3 c's:

You did not Cause the addiction
You can not Control the addiction
You will not Cure the addiction

As his friend, you offer your support by showing what resources are available in your community.

Allow your friend to take control of his own life.

"Few things help an individual more than to place responsibility upon him, and to let him know that you trust him." Booker T. Washington

NeedHelpInMI

The beer at lunch was pretty much the tip-off for me for two reasons; one, John is drinking again, and two, the fact that I didn't have the guts to speak up to him about that beer. I was pretty shocked and speechless how nonchalant he was with drinking beer in front of me, on my dime, and it made me realize that I'm ill-equipped to handle any manipulation. I'm a softie at heart, and if John lives with me, I would have a hard time saying no to him.

Taking5

Show them this thread. Lots of great advice here. The dude is homeless, claims to be 8 weeks sober and he orders a BEER at lunch? That is pure insanity!

NeedHelpInMI

HTB, here. Thank you for supporting us with your advice.

A few new things have come to light, and we are quickly realizing that we are in waaay over our heads.

John moved in with his parents a year or two ago, to use their support as he underwent rehab. He was in and out of rehab several times, and finally his parents gave up on him and kicked him out. He then moved into his grandparents house, where he tried to stay sober, but began experiencing seizures from withdrawal.

This is some serious business we've found ourselves in.

After calling his father, his father was surprised that the phone call wasn't to alert him that John was dead.

His family has completely disowned him. He's been fired from 3 jobs in the last few months. We feel like we are his VERY LAST chance, if you know what I mean.

From what I've gathered, he cant physically go without a drink for more than a day. One of my friends is currently calling around various clinics and professionals, and we've learned that a rehab clinic won't even take someone in, unless they've gone through detox, which in his situation, could literally be deadly from what I understand.

What in the hell have we gotten ourselves into here?!

Someone mentioned Harbor Lights in Monroe. Is this a free/government funded clinic? We don't have thousands of dollars to throw at his recovery right now. How does this, or others, such as Salvation Army work?

He's one of our best friends, and he's a human being.....not some piece of dirt that we're going to just let pass away. I couldn't live with anything like that on my conscious.

Right now, we're not disclosing to him how much we *really* know, until we're ready to bring on a full assault, with professional guidance and help. We're just trying to figure out what that means to us.

Thanks again for your help.

LaTeeDa

You are absolutely right when you say you are way over your head. Detox from alcohol can be deadly, and should be done under medical supervision, at the least. Your friend probably belongs in a hospital. He can detox there, and then go to (another) rehab.

Please don't put the burden of "last chance" on yourself. It sounds like he has had many "last chances." If he fails at this chance, it will not be your fault or responsibility. I understand you want to do all you can, but the sad truth is many alcoholics choose to drink themselves literally to death. I have been around this forum for several years and have seen many posts describing exactly that.

He must choose to get sober, or he won't. That's the bottom line here. Help if you want, but please don't put the responsibility of saving him on yourself. Only he can do that.

L

smacked

Hun.. you aren't responsible for him, and helping = hurting him in this case. Last chance to what? Stay drunk? Drink instead of detox? Why would he get or stay sober if he could keep on drinking, at this point? If he had a comfy lil free spot to just drink and drink ..

He can go to a hospital ER to detox, I've done it umpteen times. In fact that is where he SHOULD be. Continuing his drinking, and having friends cater to the fact that he "cant" go without, is what's killing him.

Once he's detoxed he can go to a FREE rehab through the Salvation Army, and the social worker at the hospital will set that up for him. THEY are equipped for this, you are not.

GiveLove

You're quite wrong about this.

HE is is his very last chance. Just as smacked was her own very last chance.

I would take her advice very seriously.

You are not a medical professional and are not qualified to be a detox facility for this man. And please, please trust me: you do not want that in your home. Help find a hospital if you think that will help you with the guilt feelings, but know that ultimately, the choice to live or die here rests in his hands, and only his hands.

Consider the State of Michigan's help pages too:
MDCH - Substance Abuse or Problem Gambling - Get Help Now

peaceteach

A lot has probably happened since college. And an alcoholic progresses to a pretty terrible state over the years -- peeing the bed, puking on the floor, breaking furniture and valuables, punching holes in walls, spewing terrible words at anyone in his drunken way... Please, please don't put yourselves in harm's way here. YOU didn't take the path he did; YOU shouldn't have to suffer HIS consequences.

Please listen to all the words of wisdom you've been given.

Seren

Perhaps get him to go to the emergency room....let them detox him and send him to the nearest inpatient rehab.

This is, however, assuming that he will actually go. He is an adult and, sadly, can decide to drink himself to death if that is what he chooses.

My A stepson went through DTs in the hospital a year ago this past summer. This is not something that you should try to help him with in anyone's home.

Hugs and prayers for you and your friend.
HG

1971

I can relate to the friendship issue here.
I am here because a friend I had known for 6 months fell off the wagon for at least the third time, and I hadn't even known all that time that she was an alcoholic.
Consequently, I had the choice of walking straight out of her life - as another batch of friends have done, this time around - or hanging in here and wondering what on earth to do for her as her friend.
I am currently working through the issues of if and how I am enabling her - even subtly - and also all tied in with this is the fact that there are many people around her who actually don't know she has this problem and some of them are enabling her without even realising it.
There is never any question of her moving in with me as she has a hubby (atm) and a son. I would not have her full time in my house if you gave me a million pounds, and yet I love her dearly because I can still see just a glimmer of the lovely person she is/was without the drink.

I am trying to get a balance between being here for her and yet not making myself available to be manipulated or used as a way to wriggle out of AA meetings or out of helping herself to get back on track.
I am learning that I cannot do it for her.
Right now, she believes it is too hard for her to quit. She is too scared of the withdrawal symptoms. Her 13-year marriage appears to be in shreds and I am scared for her future and what will become of her because my gut feeling tells me something bad is going to happen if she cannot get back on a programme of some kind very soon.

Until she can convince me that she is prepared to give recovery another serious go, "helping" her to get better just doesn't come into it. Putting that pillow under her for her to fall on, seems a crazy option to me because it will only end up as my needing to have MANY pillows because each time she falls she will fall harder and further.

I feel like I am having to be cruel to be kind. In fact I am probably going to have to be cruel in order to contribute to her life being saved. It's so very hard to stand back and do nothing. But it's kind of a case of that until someone fails and experiences pain, they will never learn to appreciate the other side of it. She alone is responsible for her own deeds and actions but I have felt so much like you, NeedHelp, in that it is so hard to think that we are letting a friend down.

We are not letting them down. They are letting THEMSELVES down.

I agree that if your friend John can prove by his getting real help, and sticking to his resolve, that he can quit, then you will be the best friends that he has because you will still be there for him, probably long after all the other friends he has meanwhile taken advantage of have gotten sick and tired of him and offloaded him for good.

Keep some distance, but keep in touch with him. That is the very best thing you can do, as a friend, at the present time.

1971

Adding: I missed one of your replies, NeedHelp, and see that you too have had even more of the same emotions running through your head as I have...

He's one of our best friends, and he's a human being.....not some piece of dirt that we're going to just let pass away. I couldn't live with anything like that on my conscious.

...I have a similar issue with my friend. She is a person, a feeling (when she isn't drunk) thinking person, and she does have a very good heart (again, when she isn't drinking).
As a person, she is a dear friend. It is her ILLNESS that I HATE so much!!!!

However, I worked for many years in mental health, and I have learned to acept that if somebody is determined to kill themselves, NOTHING anyone can do will stop them. This applies to suicides, and also to more indirect suicide which in this case encompasses extreme alcoholism. I accept, to put it bluntly, that my friend may possibly die, and that it might be sooner rather than in 20 years' time. And she knows this. But the compulsion of the addiction is currently just too great for her to accept this as a fact rather than a possibility.
And that makes me so incredibly terribly sad. But I cannot hold myself responsible for what she knowingly as a human being does with her own life.
If she kills herself with drink, I know I must never think for one minute that anything I ever do or don't do for her, has contributed towards that. Life or Death is her choice alone and if I ever allow that to be on my conscience, it will destroy me.

Hence I have started going to Al-Anon because I need to learn how to deal with this fact that I do care very much about her but that I cannot change her, only she is in control of her own life.



Your exclamation: "What the hell have we gotten ourselves into here?" could be me, ever since I found out 2 months ago when my lovely caring friend turned into somebody I didn't recognise.
I am still working through this. How did I land in the middle of this? And if I cannot bear to walk right out of her life, how can I continue to be a friend to her but solely on MY terms?

I can relate so well to your quandary therefore.
I pray that you can make resolves, as I am starting to learn to do, and that you have the strength to stick with those resolves.

Being here is very very helpful with that, because of the sheer amount of caring understanding support there is in these forums.