Despr8

Hi all,
I have been lurking here for a while now and this is my first post. Might be a bit long as I need to set the stage for my problem that I hope you all can help me with.

I have been married to my AH for 15 years and we have a preschool-aged daughter. His historic drinking pattern is kind of unusual, I think. For years, he seemed mostly in control of it - a beer or two after work, a little more at a party, but never too crazy. Then every few months or so, we'd be hanging out at the house, and I'd suddenly realize he was drunk (bingeing in secret). Every time I'd get upset at the deception and strange behavior, he'd swear it would never happen again, and the cycle repeated itself for years. I never recognized it as alcoholism. (Even though I found empty bottles in strange places as well.)

(Let me also state here that he is a wonderful person and for most of the time we have had a happy marriage. Always been employed, an attentive dad, a sweet man in general - never abusive, never a jerk, not irresponsible with finances, faithful; I know he loves me very much. Always binges at home - never with others or out at a bar - always alone.)

Fast forward to 3.5 years ago, when our daughter was an infant. The binges started getting closer together, and I really started to worry after I went out with girlfriends one night, he was babysitting, and I came home and he was drunk on the couch. That's when I insisted that something had to change.

Since then, he has tried many different things to address the problem - group counseling, individual counseling, and this spring, a stay in a 2-week intensive outpatient program. (Doesn't like AA.) He'd do OK for a while, then drink again. Yet while he was working on it, he also didn't want to stop drinking, and was angry and resentful during much of that time, blaming me for his problems. I started going to Al-Anon and got clarity that I was not the cause of his drinking.

After a particularly bad episode this spring, he agreed to go to the IOP program, and he seemed to be in such good shape for a couple of months after that - optimistic, active, good spirits. (Since then, he has been seeing a counselor individually and we have been seeing a marriage counselor. He's gone to a few AA meetings but still doesn't like it.) Then he started getting moody again and binged last month, then again last week. Afterward, he says the same thing every time, which he has been saying for at least a year: That he feels discouraged that our marriage isn't what it used to be; that I turn to others (e.g. Al-Anon) for emotional support; that he is lonely; he starts feeling like things are never going to work with us so he might as well drink.

The last binge was particularly disturbing - he drank four glasses of wine on the 30-minute drive between his brother's house and ours, with our daughter in the car. He walked in the door obviously buzzed, but not falling down - BUT he was driving around drinking with our daughter in the car!!

Now I don't know what to do. I love him; he is a great dad, and I want us to be together as a family, but I am so tired of living this way. He seems to be trying to be sober while also not fully embracing recovery. I think he has some underlying depression, which he denies. He ruminates, has these mood swings, and then drinks, and I think it will happen again. I am trying to focus on taking care of myself, but it's so hard and complicated because our daughter is involved. Three and a half years feels like a long time to be living in limbo, waiting for him to get better. I feel like I just can't take it any more and I don't know what to do. HELP! Any E,S,H will be appreciated.

Gypsy Feet

I'm really sorry honey *hugs*, but these two quotes don't jive. Please, please don't wait until he has injured or killed your child to be proactive. I can not imagine how I could have lived with my husband with rules in place such as "the children are not allowed in your car", but for me, that or a separation would be my only option if I were in your shoes. He is endangering her, and it is your job to protect her now.


In my experience, forgiving my husband his binges over the years did not help him. There is a chance, if I would have set boundaries and followed through back then he would have made the changes he needed to. Now I will never know, as I let it go to far, and what we once had is far gone. I am not taking any blame for his drinking, I just know my compliance did nothing to slow him down.

Talk to your al anon group about where to go from here, my answer would be to kick him to the curb.

beboplola

Welcome.

What I finally accepted was it wasn't that I DIDN'T know what to do, but that I didn't want to do what I knew I had to.

I would suggest a book - "I'll Quit Tomorrow." It will lay to rest any thoughts that his, and your, case is any different from the millions out there.

It is true the entire family becomes sick - saying someone was driving with my toddler while drunk and I don't know what to do about it? What would you do if it wasn't your husband?

isurvived

He's driving around intoxicated with his daughter in the car with him ?

Oh yeah, he's a great dad, isn't he?! He is risking the safety and life of what should be the most important person in his life. Think about that.

Despr8

I hear you, I know, it's crazy, isn't it? The driving part is utterly unacceptable. I guess what's so hard for me is that that's the only thing he's done that's so completely "out there." In every other way, at every other time, he's a very loving, gentle, attentive, caring dad, and a big part of me thinks, doesn't he deserve some credit for that?

I seem to want to think that the 95% of what he does as a dad that's great compensates for the other 5% - even though that 5% is really big and bad.

I'd love to keep hearing from others. I really need this input. Thanks so much!

JimBeam

I'm new also so I won't/can't offer much expert advice. First, you need big *hugs* and a big squeeze.

Second, in the past few weeks I've changed my behavior. I've become more detached from his problems, clearly explained my expectations to him regarding his responsibilities and duties as a hus/father. When he gets angry and starts carrying on, I've said we are leaving. He at first said I was threatening him, I told him it wasn't a threat to extort good behavior from him like a child. It was me saying I don't need to provide an audience to his moods and angry words. It's not good for me or the kids, so we are removing ourselves from the situation for our benefit not his. Selfish SOB's always think it's abt them. This has been a rude awakening for him. I've seen improvement in just the past week in his behavior and my understanding of his motives. Maybe you need to decide what's acceptable and be willing to act on it.

Regarding your child, the car situation is kind of a deal breaker in my opinion. He must be progressing into his illness if he'd do that. This is a no brainer in terms of defining boundaries.

I don't want to judge and so completely understand wanting to keep your family intact. We all dreamed of a happy household, growing old together, looking back on our history together. It doesn't mean it can't happen still, but he's not allowed to jeopardize your child's safety or turn you into a crazy person in the process.

LaTeeDa

But then, this:

So, apparently, insisting didn't solve the problem.

"Great dads" do not drink while caring for children, or while driving them. He is not a "great dad."

I understand you love him, and I was in your shoes about four years ago. Looking back, I see now that I was lying to myself. I wanted so bad for my fantasy to be true, that I worked very hard convincing myself and others that my AH was a "great dad," "loving husband," "functional,"--and many other things. Fact is, he is an alcoholic. All those things I gave him credit for were things that were "givens" for any "normal" person.

You aren't living the fantasy life. You are living the reality. Your husband's drinking is a danger to your child. What are you going to do about it?

L

Still Waters

This is a progressive disease, it will only get worse. His addiction comes before his child, and you...that's a fact.

I notice that all his attempts at "fixing" the problem never involve abstinence. Seems to me he's not done drinking yet, and you should plan around that fact.

Tarheel

D8,

Would you let another family member or a sitter drink while they watched your child? Would you let them drink while your child was in the car?
What happens if she gets hurt during that 5%? What would that mean about the 95%?

My Dad drank with me in the car. My Mom allowed it. The impact that had on me growing up was significant. I wish my Mom had moved heaven and earth to keep me safe.

I'm afraid that 95% doesn't make the 5% any less terrible than it actually is.

These are really hard things to look at. I truly appreciate that you are asking these questions and listening to the wisdom coming to you.

TH

Learn2Live

This is blame. He is blaming you. They all do it. It is part of the Denial. They will blame ANYBODY, ANYTHING.

TakingCharge999

Hi Despr8, glad you are here, this is a wonderful place.

I just wanted to send you some hugs and tell you what you describe is not a "sweet man" or a good father, I am sorry if my judgment seems blunt. A sweet good dad would NEVER EVEN IMAGINE to put his own child at risk. And he did, think about the potential consequences, you were lucky they were not involved in an accident.

At that point I imagine his judgment is clouded and by that action itself he is sending the message that alcohol is more important than his child....... please remember you are the one who is there for your child and protect her at all costs. This is the time to be there for your daughter...

We are here for you ((hugs))

sandrawg

Huh????

Honey, I hate to tell you, but this is denial.

Alcoholics operate in denial, well so do codependents. And you are definitely codependent after living with him, as are we all up here.

You can't quantify an incident like driving drunk with your daughter in the car, and slough it off as something so minor! It only takes ONE accident to kill or maim that child. Then would you be shrugging, saying "well he was a good dad 95% of the time"?

I would suggest therapy.

I would suggest Melody Beattie's book, Codependent No More.

I hope you do not take offense, but you are sick. I am sick, too, that's why I'm here, so I'm not pointing a finger. But one symptom of the illness is to minimize the alcoholic's horrible behavior, and that's exactly what you're doing. Minimizing, and rationalizing. Which is actually what they do, as well. So it's no surprise we get caught up in doing that too when we live w/them.

beginner

Wow. I feel for you. But my first entire reaction is alarm at what happened! He was drinking and driving with your daughter in the car!!! Has that registered with you??? What if he had had an accident and your daughter was killed or seriously injured?

Since I too am an Al-Anon member, I know that the idea is to have peace whether you live with the alcoholic or not, but when there are children involved that are placed in danger - that is an entirely different thing.

Your daughter needs you to protect her. Her father does not put her safety first and does not seem to think that protecting her is of the most paramount importance. Do you trust a man who is unable to do that most basic thing in helping to raise your child?

Even aside from physical danger, your daughter is growing up with an alcoholic father and the first five years of her life are the most formative. She is likely to develop adapative behaviour that will emotionally scar her for the rest of her life and will affect all her adult choices in life. Secondly, she is more likely to become an alcoholic or addict herself.

There is a lot to your story, but in my opinion, this is less about you and less about your husband than it is about your daughter. PLEASE put your daughter first, and put your own feelings aside. DO WHATEVER IT TAKES to protect her. If that means leaving him (and I would not normally give this kind of advice) - then do it. She cannot protect herself. She is at the mercy of your decisions and her father's decisions.

P.S. Want to read about my story? Go to my profile and find the link for my blog.

Freedom1990

There are a lot of caring, gentle, attentive fathers out there, non-alcoholic ones, and they are doing what fathers should be doing.

Do they get any extra hoopla for doing what they should be doing?

I'm often amazed that alcoholic behavior is so often excused/overlooked/minimized because they sometimes 'do' something that most normal emotionally healthy people do.

When I got out of a 30 day inpatient rehab, I landed a job within a week as a nurses' aid. There was no hoopla, cake, or celebration for me. I was doing what I was supposed to do.

When I walked in and paid my first electric bill out of my first paycheck, there was no hoopla, cake, or celebration for me. I was doing what I was supposed to do.

When I took out the trash every week to the curb, made sure my oil was changed in the car every 3000 miles, and mowed the lawn in the summer, there was no hoopla, cake, or celebration for me. I was doing what I was supposed to do.

Do you see what I'm getting at?

There is no excuse, period, for someone driving a child in a car while under the influence, none, zip, zero, zilch. No amount of 'fathering' is going to make up for that in my books.

sandrawg

After my exabf did cocaine, he told me about doing it. He felt like he should get kudos for "being honest." Sorry, but I think honesty is a requirement in a relationship, not an "above and beyond the call of duty" kind of thing to get special props for!!!!

Crazy4Him

This is manipulative and emotionally abusive. Have you read the stickies about the top about abuse? I remember thinking that my exab was a nice guy who just happened to drink until I read those stickies. When he says things like this to you he is trying to scare you into thinking he's going to leave you so that you, in turn, will NEVER leave him. It is a game of control and he is winning! How do I know that he is winning? Because he put your daughter's life at very real risk and instead of leaving him immedately, you pointed out what a great guy he is and excused his unacceptable behavior because of this. You are completely under his control and he knows it. This is abuse.

It will reap havoc on your sanity if you continue to take it. He is in denial, is trying to shift the blame on you and I honestly think you are in denial as well. I have no doubt that if he has been saying things like this for a year it has had a terrible effect on your self esteem and your happiness. Don't make excuses for him, just like driving drunk with your daughter, blaming you and emotionally abusing you is unacceptable behavior. I wont tell you to leave him because I know better than anyone that you really wont be DONE until you are really DONE. But please have your eyes wide open to this man, if not for yourself, then for your daughter.

I was in denial for a long time, too. It's hard to see fatal faults in someone you love, it's even harder to admit that someone you love is abusive, but you should never ignore these things at your own or your child's expense. It wont stop.

Keep reading, educate yourself on not only your husband's disease but your own, you are a full blown codie and here at SR you are in good company! Keep coming back!

Are you seeing a therapist? Al anon? Edit: Sorry you already said you were in al-anon!

catlovermi

Hmmm.

Let's say your precious daughter grows up and is a beautiful, lovely, full of life young woman.

She marries a man who is kind, gentle, thoughtful, helpful, good provider, and all those wonderful things.

But, once a year, this husband's cousin knocks on their door, and your husband opens the door and watches while this cousin beats the **** out of your daughter and then rapes her. The husband just stands by and says and does nothing. He closes the door after the cousin leaves, and attends to your daughter until she heals, until the next episode.

It only happens once a year, but you don't know what day it will be on as it's unpredictable.

Your daughter says to you, "But it's not my husband who is doing it! He's a kind man!!! He's my husband, and I love him dearly!"

And you would say to her....????


CLMI

Despr8

Wow, you all have given me so much to think about. I was seeking some groundtruthing and I am getting it. Thank you.

I wonder what the reactions would have been if I hadn't mentioned the drinking and driving incident specifically? Would it be, he sounds like a decent guy who is trying, give him another chance?

I know I said a version of this before, but he is such a sweet, decent guy 29 days out of 30, that it's so hard to remember during those 29 days that 1) day 30 keeps coming back and 2) it's a problem. It's like I just can't believe it's true/happens. I guess that's denial.

I know I deserve a lot of the words I'm getting here that feel harsh. It's funny, because when I read about what some other people have put up with, I think, that's crazy, I would never put up with that! Take out the drinking & driving and he's not THAT bad. But I guess that's minimizing.

isurvived

Desper8, we can all "take out" portions of things our A's have done, and then put them in the "good" catagory... it's call MINIMIZING.

You're wearing the blinders of denial.

These people, are people just like us... no different, except that they are dependent on alcohol or substances - which errodes the rest of their lives and character flaws develop. MY X AH was the most charming, fun person, warm and tender - when he wasn't using. But little by little, that part of him erroded.

I think you need to take a long hard look at your situation and make a move for change.

LaTeeDa

But then you still have the drinking and babysitting, the blame and manipulation, and the moodiness and binging.

I was never married to a monster. I was married to an alcoholic. He was, aside from that, a very good person. So was my father, also an alcoholic. So was my grandfather, also an alcoholic. I was trained by some of the best codependents on earth, lol.

It's really not a matter of "giving him another chance." Another chance to drive drunk with a child? Another chance to get inebriated when he's supposed to be caring for her? Another chance to blame you for his problems? Another chance at what?

It's more a matter of accepting what is. Reality. The reality is you are married to someone who drinks too much, endangers your child, and blames it on you. Nice guy or not, those are not nice behaviors. You can say he is mostly a good guy all you want, but it doesn't erase the things that are unacceptable, does it? Or, maybe it does. Maybe you can accept these things because he is a nice guy most of the time.

It all comes down to--he is who he is. You don't get to pick the nice part and toss out the not so nice part. It's all or nothing. Once you accept that, then you can decide what you want to do, or not do about it. But, you have to get past the "if it weren't for A,B, and C, he would be great!" Heck, if it weren't for my age, weight, and gray hair, I would be a fashion model!

L