Really been run over by a bus- trying to figure it out
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Originally Posted by TakingCharge999 
Hi MarcusT
In relationships its always 50/50 and both sides will tell totally different stories, as both have a set of dark glasses based on past traumas, addictions, previous hurts, prejudices, values, etc.
Ex AH speaks about me as "The Enemy". If you ask me I have been one of the few people that have really cared about him.
I read yesterday that forgiveness comes when you realize the other person is a hurt, suffering person, acting from his or her own unhealed wounds. Its not that they consciously decide to hurt you - its that they have nothing else in their heart and thats the only thing they can give to others. Apply this to yourself too. What happened, happened, you did your best, you are a human and you make mistakes...
The advantage now is that you are willing to see yourself honestly and do the hard work so you do not repeat the same story with another woman as Ago says. This is your chance to reflect, learn, grow... all of what you feel is natural, please keep posting.
During grief, emotions come in waves, maybe mixed, "expect the unexpected" is the motto.. just keep the good inner work up, and more will be revealed. You are on the right track now, one that holds much promise and joy by the end. (Or the beginning?)
((Hugs))
In relationships its always 50/50 and both sides will tell totally different stories, as both have a set of dark glasses based on past traumas, addictions, previous hurts, prejudices, values, etc.
Ex AH speaks about me as "The Enemy". If you ask me I have been one of the few people that have really cared about him.
I read yesterday that forgiveness comes when you realize the other person is a hurt, suffering person, acting from his or her own unhealed wounds. Its not that they consciously decide to hurt you - its that they have nothing else in their heart and thats the only thing they can give to others. Apply this to yourself too. What happened, happened, you did your best, you are a human and you make mistakes...
The advantage now is that you are willing to see yourself honestly and do the hard work so you do not repeat the same story with another woman as Ago says. This is your chance to reflect, learn, grow... all of what you feel is natural, please keep posting.
During grief, emotions come in waves, maybe mixed, "expect the unexpected" is the motto.. just keep the good inner work up, and more will be revealed. You are on the right track now, one that holds much promise and joy by the end. (Or the beginning?)
((Hugs))
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Originally Posted by TakingCharge999
Hi MarcusT
Ex AH speaks about me as "The Enemy". If you ask me I have been one of the few people that have really cared about him.
((Hugs))
Ex AH speaks about me as "The Enemy". If you ask me I have been one of the few people that have really cared about him.
((Hugs))
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: The Swish Alps, SF CA
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Originally Posted by MarcusT
We have stuck by these people through their worst of times.
When you talk to your wife, do you refer to her as "you people"? You wrote it, you must think it, and if you think it, it's apparent to other people around you (like her) in your attitudes no matter how hard you try to hide it, like dung beneath a rosebush.
Do you think that might be invalidating to her to be referred to as "you people" taking away any individual properties she may have? I haven't once stated she might not be a dry drunk, nor that she is, I have been trying to point out YOUR thinking that may have contributed to this situation.
I think Micheal Crichton said it best, he was able to verbalize something that had been knocking around my head for years, in a book he wrote called "Travels" and he was dealing with the dichotomy of the "Battle of the Sexes", I never liked men or women when they "labeled" the other sex with "just being X, Y or Z" irregardless of circumstance, I wasn't comfortable with women bashing men but I am also not comfortable with men bashing women, or racism, bigotry, homophobia, Misogynists, etc I think it takes away your own personal responsibility for a situation, and is ultimately mentally lazy, it's like "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" even on a mental level.
If "they" are "the problem" I don't have to look at myself and my own behavior. They being "these people" in this case.
Crichton wrote:
# What's really wrong with making them the problem is that you abdicate your own responsibility. Once you say some mysterious they is in charge, then you're able to sit back comfortably and complain about how they are doing it.
# The biggest problem between the sexes was the tendency to objectify the opposite sex and ultimately become powerless before them. Both men and women did this about the opposite sex. They were this way or that way. They had this tendency. There was nothing we could do about the way they behaved.
# I had thought that women were inherently different from men. And in formulating that difference, I had also objectified women. They were different. They didn't have the same feelings I did. They were they.
# The biggest problem between the sexes was the tendency to objectify the opposite sex and ultimately become powerless before them. Both men and women did this about the opposite sex. They were this way or that way. They had this tendency. There was nothing we could do about the way they behaved.
# I had thought that women were inherently different from men. And in formulating that difference, I had also objectified women. They were different. They didn't have the same feelings I did. They were they.
So the point I have trying to make is as long as you "objectify her", make her "the problem" or "the enemy" you don't have to take responsibility for your own actions when clearly:
I carry that and Have been in relationships that turn into disasters my whole life
I am not condoning alcoholic behavior, I have been extremely harmed by it as well, I am saying taking personal responsibility is the path to freedom, not just blaming and fingerpointing. Your problem may have her name on it, but your solution has your name on it. Up to you whether you want to head towards the solution or just continue living in and perpetuating the problem.
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: La La Land, USA
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Originally Posted by Ago
My first thought when I read this was, "Is she Jewish?"
When you talk to your wife, do you refer to her as "you people"? You wrote it, you must think it, and if you think it, it's apparent to other people around you (like her) in your attitudes no matter how hard you try to hide it, like dung beneath a rosebush.
Do you think that might be invalidating to her to be referred to as "you people" taking away any individual properties she may have? I haven't once stated she might not be a dry drunk, nor that she is, I have been trying to point out YOUR thinking that may have contributed to this situation.
I think Micheal Crichton said it best, he was able to verbalize something that had been knocking around my head for years, in a book he wrote called "Travels" and he was dealing with the dichotomy of the "Battle of the Sexes", I never liked men or women when they "labeled" the other sex with "just being X, Y or Z" irregardless of circumstance, I wasn't comfortable with women bashing men but I am also not comfortable with men bashing women, or racism, bigotry, homophobia, Misogynists, etc I think it takes away your own personal responsibility for a situation, and is ultimately mentally lazy, it's like "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" even on a mental level.
If "they" are "the problem" I don't have to look at myself and my own behavior. They being "these people" in this case.
Crichton wrote:
Put "alcoholic" where the word they and woman is and read it again
So the point I have trying to make is as long as you "objectify her", make her "the problem" or "the enemy" you don't have to take responsibility for your own actions when clearly:
She is clearly not "the problem" then. The good news is, as Agent 99 wrote, now you can start working yourself to stop that pattern now.
I am not condoning alcoholic behavior, I have been extremely harmed by it as well, I am saying taking personal responsibility is the path to freedom, not just blaming and fingerpointing. Your problem may have her name on it, but your solution has your name on it. Up to you whether you want to head towards the solution or just continue living in and perpetuating the problem.
When you talk to your wife, do you refer to her as "you people"? You wrote it, you must think it, and if you think it, it's apparent to other people around you (like her) in your attitudes no matter how hard you try to hide it, like dung beneath a rosebush.
Do you think that might be invalidating to her to be referred to as "you people" taking away any individual properties she may have? I haven't once stated she might not be a dry drunk, nor that she is, I have been trying to point out YOUR thinking that may have contributed to this situation.
I think Micheal Crichton said it best, he was able to verbalize something that had been knocking around my head for years, in a book he wrote called "Travels" and he was dealing with the dichotomy of the "Battle of the Sexes", I never liked men or women when they "labeled" the other sex with "just being X, Y or Z" irregardless of circumstance, I wasn't comfortable with women bashing men but I am also not comfortable with men bashing women, or racism, bigotry, homophobia, Misogynists, etc I think it takes away your own personal responsibility for a situation, and is ultimately mentally lazy, it's like "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" even on a mental level.
If "they" are "the problem" I don't have to look at myself and my own behavior. They being "these people" in this case.
Crichton wrote:
Put "alcoholic" where the word they and woman is and read it again
So the point I have trying to make is as long as you "objectify her", make her "the problem" or "the enemy" you don't have to take responsibility for your own actions when clearly:
She is clearly not "the problem" then. The good news is, as Agent 99 wrote, now you can start working yourself to stop that pattern now.
I am not condoning alcoholic behavior, I have been extremely harmed by it as well, I am saying taking personal responsibility is the path to freedom, not just blaming and fingerpointing. Your problem may have her name on it, but your solution has your name on it. Up to you whether you want to head towards the solution or just continue living in and perpetuating the problem.
Ditto ditto ditto....
I think one of the hardest things to get 'over', is the fact that it's really not an us versus them world.. I would have nowhere to belong if everything was so mutualy exclusive, having been both us, and them... and I guess now "those people".
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Originally Posted by MarcusT
No there is stuff I own here. I was well trained in codependency from physically ill, controlling, substance abusing parents. I carry that and Have been in relationships that turn into disasters my whole life. This current situation being the one that takes the cake. I didn't know that the person I met 10 years ago was an alcoholic. We have talked about it and it was well hidden from me for some time. As it progressed, I did notice it and labeled it as " a drinking problem" but not alcoholism. She stopped cold turkey hen she got pregnant 2 times, so I didn't think, since she stopped so easily, that it was as serious a problem as it really was. That it was still "Alcoholism". I didn't know then that high functional alcoholic are a majority of alcoholics out there. I think there was a lot of denial about it on both parties' end. There was hiding of bottles, all that. I didn't realize then what a powerful effect being with a person would have on me. Bringing out the worst of the codependent behaviors, the feeling of anger, betrayal, hurt, anxiety. The controlling aspects of it. I was a codependent before that, rescuing others.
What is confusing is that I have heard form her, when we talked about reasons this was happening, that it was her and her stuff. But other times it was me and my stuff. My neediness, codependent issues, my need for validation and controlling actions. So my head is trying to sort it all out. How much do I own here? How much of this has nothing to do with me?
Its hard because now that all the cards are on the table, her answer is to walk. We both acknowledge that we have some bad stuff here. But there was never any attempt made to go work it out as a couple. Its just "over" in a heartbeat. Its just a shame and I feel my kids are trapped in the middle o it. Hell I feel I am trapped in the middle of it. I am glad she is purportedly going out into the world to seek her recovery, whatever form that might end up being. Buts its like I have hit my rock bottom after supporting her thru her bad times, only to be whacked down again. I just wish we gave each other a chance. Our conciling sessions basically left me with the conclusion that this is post alcoholic recovery in process ( this is what I was told by the doc is the primary issue here (after 4 session)) and that the recovering alcoholic can go thru tremendous changes. The entire situation stinks and is very frustrating.
I am doing my work. I started AL Anon and Coda meetings and starting with an individual therapist. I hope this helps me out and pehaps heals some of the wounds we have caused one another.
What is confusing is that I have heard form her, when we talked about reasons this was happening, that it was her and her stuff. But other times it was me and my stuff. My neediness, codependent issues, my need for validation and controlling actions. So my head is trying to sort it all out. How much do I own here? How much of this has nothing to do with me?
Its hard because now that all the cards are on the table, her answer is to walk. We both acknowledge that we have some bad stuff here. But there was never any attempt made to go work it out as a couple. Its just "over" in a heartbeat. Its just a shame and I feel my kids are trapped in the middle o it. Hell I feel I am trapped in the middle of it. I am glad she is purportedly going out into the world to seek her recovery, whatever form that might end up being. Buts its like I have hit my rock bottom after supporting her thru her bad times, only to be whacked down again. I just wish we gave each other a chance. Our conciling sessions basically left me with the conclusion that this is post alcoholic recovery in process ( this is what I was told by the doc is the primary issue here (after 4 session)) and that the recovering alcoholic can go thru tremendous changes. The entire situation stinks and is very frustrating.
I am doing my work. I started AL Anon and Coda meetings and starting with an individual therapist. I hope this helps me out and pehaps heals some of the wounds we have caused one another.
When drugs or alcohol are the third partner in any relationship, everything is twisted, complex.. and totally warped. It's thought that once the substance is removed, all of that will reverse. The fact is, some relationships without any substance issues are twisted, complex.. and totally warped.
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Originally Posted by smacked
I do know this, often with recovery.. heck even just plain ol sobriety, comes clarity, confidence, and a new sense of self empowerment. I wonder after what you've shared with us about your role in this relationship.. is she now sober and clear and realizing you're not a good guy for her?
When drugs or alcohol are the third partner in any relationship, everything is twisted, complex.. and totally warped. It's thought that once the substance is removed, all of that will reverse.
When drugs or alcohol are the third partner in any relationship, everything is twisted, complex.. and totally warped. It's thought that once the substance is removed, all of that will reverse.
What was suggested to me when my GF left me years ago, was "Can you entertain the notion that her leaving had nothing to do with you? That she made the decision for her own reasons, and you just concentrate on your own part and your own recovery?"
It took me some time, but that was ultimately the mindset I took that led to healing.
I am not responsible for what others think of me, I am only responsible for my own actions. That included a woman that just had left me. I am just trying to take "blaming" out of the picture because there is no healing there, just more bitterness and playing out the same relationship again in the future, then being so surprised when it happens again.
Personal responsibility is never not the answer for me, although I spend enough time on the other road, that's for sure. it just doesn't get me anywhere, then LaTeeDa comes along, kicks my @ss, and all is well in the world again.
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OMG it's that Andrew wack AGAIN
Hey, sorry to fill up your post, I was rereading my responses, and I realized that one thing I didn't do was "validate" how "crazy-making" growing up with and living with alcoholism and alcoholics can be.
I was also raised in an alcoholic situation where at best it was emotionally abusive on occasion, at worst I was "abandoned", I have heard that "ignoring" a child causes more damage then actual abuse, I don't know, I just know that at one point I ended up on my knees crying saying over and over "It's not OK, it's not OK" and looking at the wreckage my life had become saying "that's funny, I did everything they told me." thinking of the way I was raised to live my life.
When I got to recovery, it was via AA, and the "old school" AA is absolutely @ss kicking and stresses if you ever want to know what "the problem" is, look in the mirror.
It's not always the right approach here, I am sorry if I have come across as a hardass, but the truth is I recognize myself in you and your situation, and everything I write to you, I need to listen and do myself, and I have "been you" almost verbatim, with my long term girl of ten years leaving me 15 years ago doing and saying exactly the same things as your wife and she didn't drink.
It's possible that reading your story "triggered" that memory, because it could have been "my story".
Anyway, when I was going through the same situation, the people in my life pounded and pounded me to keep the focus on myself, so I have been doing that to you, but I also want to say there is empathy and understanding here.
Go get support, go get some hugs, go be with people who understand what it's like to grow up in an alcoholic family structure and have an alcoholic spouse and they understand how destabilizing that is.
Go heal, and love yourself, because you are worth it, I am so sorry you are going through this.
:ghug3
Hey, sorry to fill up your post, I was rereading my responses, and I realized that one thing I didn't do was "validate" how "crazy-making" growing up with and living with alcoholism and alcoholics can be.
I was also raised in an alcoholic situation where at best it was emotionally abusive on occasion, at worst I was "abandoned", I have heard that "ignoring" a child causes more damage then actual abuse, I don't know, I just know that at one point I ended up on my knees crying saying over and over "It's not OK, it's not OK" and looking at the wreckage my life had become saying "that's funny, I did everything they told me." thinking of the way I was raised to live my life.
When I got to recovery, it was via AA, and the "old school" AA is absolutely @ss kicking and stresses if you ever want to know what "the problem" is, look in the mirror.
It's not always the right approach here, I am sorry if I have come across as a hardass, but the truth is I recognize myself in you and your situation, and everything I write to you, I need to listen and do myself, and I have "been you" almost verbatim, with my long term girl of ten years leaving me 15 years ago doing and saying exactly the same things as your wife and she didn't drink.
It's possible that reading your story "triggered" that memory, because it could have been "my story".
Anyway, when I was going through the same situation, the people in my life pounded and pounded me to keep the focus on myself, so I have been doing that to you, but I also want to say there is empathy and understanding here.
Go get support, go get some hugs, go be with people who understand what it's like to grow up in an alcoholic family structure and have an alcoholic spouse and they understand how destabilizing that is.
Go heal, and love yourself, because you are worth it, I am so sorry you are going through this.
:ghug3
1 Corinthians 13:1-13 love
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcusT
We have stuck by these people through their worst of times.
When I read this MarcusT I gave you the benefit of the doubt and took the perspective that you were talking to the reading crowd in context, us being a plural number, those of us who have spent many years through active drinking with alcoholics. I did not assume your intention was to cast a negative light or superiority. The context didn't demand this according to the revelation of what you wrote in context. However, i can't see your heart .:-)
Originally Posted by MarcusT
We have stuck by these people through their worst of times.
When I read this MarcusT I gave you the benefit of the doubt and took the perspective that you were talking to the reading crowd in context, us being a plural number, those of us who have spent many years through active drinking with alcoholics. I did not assume your intention was to cast a negative light or superiority. The context didn't demand this according to the revelation of what you wrote in context. However, i can't see your heart .:-)
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Originally Posted by MarcusT
I can relate to that. I am perceived the same way. As an adversary and obstacle, not an asset or ally. Which is pretty sad. We have stuck by these people through their worst of times.
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Do you think your wife could write this about you?
I have never been truly trusted by my husband and often perceived by him as an obstacle and adversary. I see it in his <controlling> actions over the years and that has not stopped simply because I stopped drinking, unfortunately. And for me, this hurts deeply. I have tried my best to make him happy, give him what he wants. I have bent over backwards, <I quit drinking and also ______.> I want my freedom now from him, and he is giving that to me now, despite how very difficult it is to <relinquish control for him>. It hurts to be thought of as <nothing but an alcoholic and my decision being based on nothing but untreated alcoholism, that feels invalidating>. I am demonized, even now, by him. It feels like a betrayal.
One of the more unfortunate aspects of going into recovery, is whenever I point the finger of blame at someone else, I am always guilty of that very same behavior. If you spot it, you got it.
It appears as if the "demonizing" is happening on both sides of the ball. Do you think she feels betrayed by this?
Now, I ask you this in all seriousness, when you "bent over backwards" for her, who were you doing it for, her or you?
When I "bend over backwards" for someone it's been my experience in some way it has always been a form of manipulation. "If I do ______ maybe they will respond with ______". It's very subtle, and I wasn't even aware I was doing it.
This is some deep rooted codie behavior for me and has brought me untold grief. I have done this again and again in my life and it has never not brought me pain and suffering.
I think it's called "gifts with strings" or "love with strings" and it's one of the most important things I had to start spotting about myself in order to start breaking my codie patterns.
I have never been truly trusted by my husband and often perceived by him as an obstacle and adversary. I see it in his <controlling> actions over the years and that has not stopped simply because I stopped drinking, unfortunately. And for me, this hurts deeply. I have tried my best to make him happy, give him what he wants. I have bent over backwards, <I quit drinking and also ______.> I want my freedom now from him, and he is giving that to me now, despite how very difficult it is to <relinquish control for him>. It hurts to be thought of as <nothing but an alcoholic and my decision being based on nothing but untreated alcoholism, that feels invalidating>. I am demonized, even now, by him. It feels like a betrayal.
One of the more unfortunate aspects of going into recovery, is whenever I point the finger of blame at someone else, I am always guilty of that very same behavior. If you spot it, you got it.
It appears as if the "demonizing" is happening on both sides of the ball. Do you think she feels betrayed by this?
Now, I ask you this in all seriousness, when you "bent over backwards" for her, who were you doing it for, her or you?
When I "bend over backwards" for someone it's been my experience in some way it has always been a form of manipulation. "If I do ______ maybe they will respond with ______". It's very subtle, and I wasn't even aware I was doing it.
This is some deep rooted codie behavior for me and has brought me untold grief. I have done this again and again in my life and it has never not brought me pain and suffering.
I think it's called "gifts with strings" or "love with strings" and it's one of the most important things I had to start spotting about myself in order to start breaking my codie patterns.
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Marcus, for what it's worth, even though I have a hairtrigger temper when it comes to these things, I didn't take offense at "these people" either. I read it as "the alcoholics in our lives" not as "those damned alcoholics over there..."
I remember not too long ago we had a small firestorm because our beloved wack Andrew dared use the term "the girls" to refer to his female friends here on SR. Same kind of semantic problem.
Standing by with the fire extinguisher, hoping I don't have to use it except as a door stop
Hang in there. These are painful but necessary thought processes you're putting yourself through. They will take you to a better place, though I know it's hard to see it right now. It's kind of a dark tunnel, very hard to have faith it's going to spill out into the sun some time.
And for what it's worth, I know you're no demon, no matter what your wife says. You're just trying to find your way through the hurt, whatever is causing it.
I remember not too long ago we had a small firestorm because our beloved wack Andrew dared use the term "the girls" to refer to his female friends here on SR. Same kind of semantic problem.
Standing by with the fire extinguisher, hoping I don't have to use it except as a door stop
Hang in there. These are painful but necessary thought processes you're putting yourself through. They will take you to a better place, though I know it's hard to see it right now. It's kind of a dark tunnel, very hard to have faith it's going to spill out into the sun some time.
And for what it's worth, I know you're no demon, no matter what your wife says. You're just trying to find your way through the hurt, whatever is causing it.
Last edited by GiveLove; 06-11-2009 at 12:35 PM.
1 Corinthians 13:1-13 love
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Originally Posted by Ago
One of the more unfortunate aspects of going into recovery, is whenever I point the finger of blame at someone else, I am always guilty of that very same behavior. If you spot it, you got it.
However, how you feel about your situation and the behaviors towards you MarcusT, that you are being demonized, we can only know through you revelation. I accept this is how you feel and how you view the reality of your situation. When I read someone's story I remember that one man's story sounds true until you hear the other man's story. In this I know I only hear your side. Therefore, I also know that you are here for you and to work on you so I would believe your intention here is to be as honest and objective as you possibly can for both help and understanding from those who have had a similar life of being married to an alcoholic.
I think it is wise to apply the theory that we should take the plank out of our own eye before we take the speck from someone else's instead of accepting the philosophy that if you spot it you got it. However, I did not see that this was the perspective of your post in the first place. I read your post as a revelation of your feelings and what you are going through and I am sorry how you are feeling.
As someone who has been married almost 22 years to an active abuser of alcohol I understand the demonizing. He is still drinking, yet even though he is still drinking 9 months after I asked for a divorce my AH has repeatedly said and just said again to me this week, "How can you throw away 22 years of marriage." While I know your perspective is different as to your situation, I understand what it means to be demonized. And I do not spot it because I got it. I spot it because the reality is he actually made this demonizing statement to me. More importantly MarcusT is that I choose not to hold a resentment to his demonizing. It is what it is and I cannot change how he thinks. I am content to know that I have not thrown away our marriage and am free to hope that one day he will know this too. However, i will be content if he never gets this. I will feel bad for him if he chooses to hold a resentment towards me, one that I wasn't even guiltly of wrong doing, for divorcing him. Even though I will have done nothing wrong by choosing divorce it will be sad if he continued to live a life strangled by resentment. We shall see. So far this has been a pattern in our marriage, his resentment holding, statements shared most often when he was drunk. It is one of the abuses i had to admit the truth about and one i have had enough of.
tammy
proverbs 20:5
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Originally Posted by bluejay6
Hey Marcus, I just want to step in again, wish you strength, and also be an advocate for YOU.
Marcus, every single one of us here knows what an addict personality is. We know the mind games, the cons, the blaming, the desertion, the come close-go away, the "he/she understands me better than you do" (the one they're running away with), the "you're too controlling" (this is CLASSIC and also absurd since the alcoholic has been controlling the relationship with his/her craziness from day one.
IMO, you have an ADDICTION problem, not a relationship problem, because you have NEVER HAD a relationship. Addicts do not have relationships. They have arrangements, with them in charge, either blatantly or covertly.
Life with an addict is insane and when we try everything in the world to achieve some equilibrium and some sanity in the home, we are accused of being controlling. Marcus, don't you believe it. If you are with a mature, rational woman and she accuses you of being controlling, then by all means listen well and change. But if a nonrecovering addict accuses you of the same, you are being manipulated and degraded.
I am with Steve's posts. This is about chemical addiction and an addict's crazy thinking and behavior which has made you doubt every good instinct you have and has leveled your self-esteem to the sidewalk.
Your job is to face the fact that your mind has been controlled by addictive disease sinking its claws into you and to find your way to clarity. Stop hoping she'll change, Marcus, because without true recovery, she will always be a self-centered, self-serving, complaining, whining, accusing, resentful, me-me-me addict.
I don't have much patience when someone is so decimated by an addict and then has to feel responsible for it.
You are responsible for seeing reality and taking realistic action now that you understand more about addiction and about how it made you sick.
But you should NEVER think that the reason she's walking out with her camera and her new boyfriend is because you in some way failed her.
You get better, Marcus. Let her ruin her own life without you.
And by the way, if it doesn't work out with the new guy, and she actually has to be alone AND work for a living, bet you anything she'll be knocking on your door and telling you she never realized just how much she really loves you.
Marcus, don't let addiction mess up YOUR mind.
BJ
Marcus, every single one of us here knows what an addict personality is. We know the mind games, the cons, the blaming, the desertion, the come close-go away, the "he/she understands me better than you do" (the one they're running away with), the "you're too controlling" (this is CLASSIC and also absurd since the alcoholic has been controlling the relationship with his/her craziness from day one.
IMO, you have an ADDICTION problem, not a relationship problem, because you have NEVER HAD a relationship. Addicts do not have relationships. They have arrangements, with them in charge, either blatantly or covertly.
Life with an addict is insane and when we try everything in the world to achieve some equilibrium and some sanity in the home, we are accused of being controlling. Marcus, don't you believe it. If you are with a mature, rational woman and she accuses you of being controlling, then by all means listen well and change. But if a nonrecovering addict accuses you of the same, you are being manipulated and degraded.
I am with Steve's posts. This is about chemical addiction and an addict's crazy thinking and behavior which has made you doubt every good instinct you have and has leveled your self-esteem to the sidewalk.
Your job is to face the fact that your mind has been controlled by addictive disease sinking its claws into you and to find your way to clarity. Stop hoping she'll change, Marcus, because without true recovery, she will always be a self-centered, self-serving, complaining, whining, accusing, resentful, me-me-me addict.
I don't have much patience when someone is so decimated by an addict and then has to feel responsible for it.
You are responsible for seeing reality and taking realistic action now that you understand more about addiction and about how it made you sick.
But you should NEVER think that the reason she's walking out with her camera and her new boyfriend is because you in some way failed her.
You get better, Marcus. Let her ruin her own life without you.
And by the way, if it doesn't work out with the new guy, and she actually has to be alone AND work for a living, bet you anything she'll be knocking on your door and telling you she never realized just how much she really loves you.
Marcus, don't let addiction mess up YOUR mind.
BJ
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Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 24
Originally Posted by Ago
Do you think your wife could write this about you?
I have never been truly trusted by my husband and often perceived by him as an obstacle and adversary. I see it in his <controlling> actions over the years and that has not stopped simply because I stopped drinking, unfortunately. And for me, this hurts deeply. I have tried my best to make him happy, give him what he wants. I have bent over backwards, <I quit drinking and also ______.> I want my freedom now from him, and he is giving that to me now, despite how very difficult it is to <relinquish control for him>. It hurts to be thought of as <nothing but an alcoholic and my decision being based on nothing but untreated alcoholism, that feels invalidating>. I am demonized, even now, by him. It feels like a betrayal.
One of the more unfortunate aspects of going into recovery, is whenever I point the finger of blame at someone else, I am always guilty of that very same behavior. If you spot it, you got it.
It appears as if the "demonizing" is happening on both sides of the ball. Do you think she feels betrayed by this?
Now, I ask you this in all seriousness, when you "bent over backwards" for her, who were you doing it for, her or you?
When I "bend over backwards" for someone it's been my experience in some way it has always been a form of manipulation. "If I do ______ maybe they will respond with ______". It's very subtle, and I wasn't even aware I was doing it.
This is some deep rooted codie behavior for me and has brought me untold grief. I have done this again and again in my life and it has never not brought me pain and suffering.
I think it's called "gifts with strings" or "love with strings" and it's one of the most important things I had to start spotting about myself in order to start breaking my codie patterns.
I have never been truly trusted by my husband and often perceived by him as an obstacle and adversary. I see it in his <controlling> actions over the years and that has not stopped simply because I stopped drinking, unfortunately. And for me, this hurts deeply. I have tried my best to make him happy, give him what he wants. I have bent over backwards, <I quit drinking and also ______.> I want my freedom now from him, and he is giving that to me now, despite how very difficult it is to <relinquish control for him>. It hurts to be thought of as <nothing but an alcoholic and my decision being based on nothing but untreated alcoholism, that feels invalidating>. I am demonized, even now, by him. It feels like a betrayal.
One of the more unfortunate aspects of going into recovery, is whenever I point the finger of blame at someone else, I am always guilty of that very same behavior. If you spot it, you got it.
It appears as if the "demonizing" is happening on both sides of the ball. Do you think she feels betrayed by this?
Now, I ask you this in all seriousness, when you "bent over backwards" for her, who were you doing it for, her or you?
When I "bend over backwards" for someone it's been my experience in some way it has always been a form of manipulation. "If I do ______ maybe they will respond with ______". It's very subtle, and I wasn't even aware I was doing it.
This is some deep rooted codie behavior for me and has brought me untold grief. I have done this again and again in my life and it has never not brought me pain and suffering.
I think it's called "gifts with strings" or "love with strings" and it's one of the most important things I had to start spotting about myself in order to start breaking my codie patterns.
who did I bend over backwards for? her and my sick need to be the codie rescuer, putting my needs aside. The codie then awaits the payback, but it usually never comes.
I will say that I don't browbeat her with her prior alcohol use. We do discuss it but I don't use it as a tool to "win" an argument. She has told me this is about a lot of her stuff but there is my stuff in there too and we both agree on that. I am trying to keep my focus on myself, but I have to analyze this other person and that relationship very closely as well. We will be dealing with each other for a while, since we are married with young kids, whether we are together or not.
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Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 24
Originally Posted by Ago
OMG it's that Andrew wack AGAIN
Hey, sorry to fill up your post, I was rereading my responses, and I realized that one thing I didn't do was "validate" how "crazy-making" growing up with and living with alcoholism and alcoholics can be.
I was also raised in an alcoholic situation where at best it was emotionally abusive on occasion, at worst I was "abandoned", I have heard that "ignoring" a child causes more damage then actual abuse, I don't know, I just know that at one point I ended up on my knees crying saying over and over "It's not OK, it's not OK" and looking at the wreckage my life had become saying "that's funny, I did everything they told me." thinking of the way I was raised to live my life.
When I got to recovery, it was via AA, and the "old school" AA is absolutely @ss kicking and stresses if you ever want to know what "the problem" is, look in the mirror.
It's not always the right approach here, I am sorry if I have come across as a hardass, but the truth is I recognize myself in you and your situation, and everything I write to you, I need to listen and do myself, and I have "been you" almost verbatim, with my long term girl of ten years leaving me 15 years ago doing and saying exactly the same things as your wife and she didn't drink.
It's possible that reading your story "triggered" that memory, because it could have been "my story".
Anyway, when I was going through the same situation, the people in my life pounded and pounded me to keep the focus on myself, so I have been doing that to you, but I also want to say there is empathy and understanding here.
Go get support, go get some hugs, go be with people who understand what it's like to grow up in an alcoholic family structure and have an alcoholic spouse and they understand how destabilizing that is.
Go heal, and love yourself, because you are worth it, I am so sorry you are going through this.
:ghug3
Hey, sorry to fill up your post, I was rereading my responses, and I realized that one thing I didn't do was "validate" how "crazy-making" growing up with and living with alcoholism and alcoholics can be.
I was also raised in an alcoholic situation where at best it was emotionally abusive on occasion, at worst I was "abandoned", I have heard that "ignoring" a child causes more damage then actual abuse, I don't know, I just know that at one point I ended up on my knees crying saying over and over "It's not OK, it's not OK" and looking at the wreckage my life had become saying "that's funny, I did everything they told me." thinking of the way I was raised to live my life.
When I got to recovery, it was via AA, and the "old school" AA is absolutely @ss kicking and stresses if you ever want to know what "the problem" is, look in the mirror.
It's not always the right approach here, I am sorry if I have come across as a hardass, but the truth is I recognize myself in you and your situation, and everything I write to you, I need to listen and do myself, and I have "been you" almost verbatim, with my long term girl of ten years leaving me 15 years ago doing and saying exactly the same things as your wife and she didn't drink.
It's possible that reading your story "triggered" that memory, because it could have been "my story".
Anyway, when I was going through the same situation, the people in my life pounded and pounded me to keep the focus on myself, so I have been doing that to you, but I also want to say there is empathy and understanding here.
Go get support, go get some hugs, go be with people who understand what it's like to grow up in an alcoholic family structure and have an alcoholic spouse and they understand how destabilizing that is.
Go heal, and love yourself, because you are worth it, I am so sorry you are going through this.
:ghug3
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