Codependency Conspiracy?
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Codependency Conspiracy?
Has anyone heard of this? Do you have any feelings about it?
I spoke with a chemical dependency counselor yesterday in great detail about my bf and my family history. He is a big supporter of AA created Codependency myths. He elaborated in saying that however there are some relational problems that have some consistency, labeling someone as codependent and trying to treat them as such can be damaging. Just as an alcoholic would use the disease as an excuse for bad behavior, a codependent could as well.
He said he likes to focus on the fact that almost everyone has relational problems, and essentially everyone has a few traits defined as codependency.
He also recommended a book that he said explains his beliefs on the subject and also is a good resource to learning how to be more assertive in relationships.
He said positive things about the way the bf was handling my request, which (apparently wasn't specific enough).
Any experiences or thoughts?
The book is called: The Codependency Conspiracy by Katz
I ordered it and it should be here by mid next week.
I spoke with a chemical dependency counselor yesterday in great detail about my bf and my family history. He is a big supporter of AA created Codependency myths. He elaborated in saying that however there are some relational problems that have some consistency, labeling someone as codependent and trying to treat them as such can be damaging. Just as an alcoholic would use the disease as an excuse for bad behavior, a codependent could as well.
He said he likes to focus on the fact that almost everyone has relational problems, and essentially everyone has a few traits defined as codependency.
He also recommended a book that he said explains his beliefs on the subject and also is a good resource to learning how to be more assertive in relationships.
He said positive things about the way the bf was handling my request, which (apparently wasn't specific enough).
Any experiences or thoughts?
The book is called: The Codependency Conspiracy by Katz
I ordered it and it should be here by mid next week.
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I don't know anything about "conspiracy" issues, but my therapist is an addiction specialist. He told me early on when I asked about Codependency and the Beattie book, that it is good to gain knowledge, but he doesn't like to label or classify people as co-dependent. I have no idea why.
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What a terrific waste of time with this person.
It makes it sound like people with codependent tendencies are going into a court of law and getting off on a murder rap. There are hundreds of people here with codependent inclinations and not one of them is trying to get away with anything "because I'm codependent." Some don't mind the label, some do, none of it matters. They're just trying to become safer, happier, saner people by identifying the traits that are hurting them (MAYBE labeling them), and doing something to change them.
What are you getting out of this? How is it helping to ease your pain?
It makes it sound like people with codependent tendencies are going into a court of law and getting off on a murder rap. There are hundreds of people here with codependent inclinations and not one of them is trying to get away with anything "because I'm codependent." Some don't mind the label, some do, none of it matters. They're just trying to become safer, happier, saner people by identifying the traits that are hurting them (MAYBE labeling them), and doing something to change them.
What are you getting out of this? How is it helping to ease your pain?
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I have a problem with anyone who has been involved with an alcoholic automatically being labelled as 'codependent'. Particularly as some of the characteristics are inherent in human beings.
My understanding of codependency is that in the case of a codependent these natural behaviours become heightened, habitual and self destructive and cause harm to the lives of the codependent.
I've looked at all the 'are you a codependent' checklists and spoken about it with a friend of mine (who is a psych/counsellor) and while there are some things I can answer yes or maybe to there are many more I can answer no to.
I wouldn't poo-poo the term but I don't blanketly accept that it applies in all instances either.
My understanding of codependency is that in the case of a codependent these natural behaviours become heightened, habitual and self destructive and cause harm to the lives of the codependent.
I've looked at all the 'are you a codependent' checklists and spoken about it with a friend of mine (who is a psych/counsellor) and while there are some things I can answer yes or maybe to there are many more I can answer no to.
I wouldn't poo-poo the term but I don't blanketly accept that it applies in all instances either.
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huh...
I see alcoholics go through some pretty strenuous mental gymnastics in order to not label themselves as alcoholics, therefore "nonalcoholic", and then they can "beat the rap" and continue their denial, thus their drinking, there are some forms of therapy that also buy into this, and don't like labeling alcoholics as such.....so the "problem drinker" is free to continue drinking.....
If it follows that "A rose is a rose by any other name", it stands to reason that certain behaviors are certain behaviors, no matter what the name, and the name that is commonly associated with the behaviors that accompany being involved with a "problem drinker" is known as codependency, changing or denying the name doesn't change the behaviors that are harmful to US as those folks that have been in close contact/relationships with "drinkers that have problematic symptoms but would be greatly offended if called alcoholics"
As far as certain characteristics being inherent in all human beings, it's not instincts and behaviors themselves that got us here, it's the distortion thereof. We all have instincts to love, cherish, and protect our loved ones, it's when we slip into unhealthy patterns of behavior that we need to stop and take a look at them.
Much like Overeaters HAVE to eat in order to survive, but what makes them "overeaters" is the distortion of how they eat, eating itself is healthy, but it becomes unhealthy when it becomes an addiction and a way to deal with ones internal and emotional life.
If I go "answer shopping" enough I can find someone, somewhere to sign off on the most errant ******** I can come up with, if anyone doubts that, lets take a look at the fact Bush was RE-elected, or take a look at say Hitler, or Idi Amin, they all got entire countries to buy the product they were selling.
In my experience it helps to know (and admit) what the problem is before I can even begin to address it, and if it's labeled as "codependency" then I could care less, if in books about codependency I find the solution to what ails me.
It just seems to me, once again, the folks squirming to get out of the whole "codependent labeling" thing are no different then alcoholics squirming to get out of the whole "alcoholic labeling" thing, just another way to continue their own denial, make it "someone else's fault" and thus be able to continue their behavior.
This is my opinion and experience, I realize it will be deeply unpopular here with some folks, that's OK, if you disagree with me, and your experience is different, I am OK with that, I am not the be-all end-all of recovery, It's just my opinion (and experience) that there is a certain segment of the population that will do anything to avoid looking at themselves, and there are certain types of therapy that seem to buy into that ********, a great deal of that experience comes from many years of sponsoring probably literally hundreds of alcoholics, but also in the last year or so in learning about and dealing with codependency as well.
I see alcoholics go through some pretty strenuous mental gymnastics in order to not label themselves as alcoholics, therefore "nonalcoholic", and then they can "beat the rap" and continue their denial, thus their drinking, there are some forms of therapy that also buy into this, and don't like labeling alcoholics as such.....so the "problem drinker" is free to continue drinking.....
If it follows that "A rose is a rose by any other name", it stands to reason that certain behaviors are certain behaviors, no matter what the name, and the name that is commonly associated with the behaviors that accompany being involved with a "problem drinker" is known as codependency, changing or denying the name doesn't change the behaviors that are harmful to US as those folks that have been in close contact/relationships with "drinkers that have problematic symptoms but would be greatly offended if called alcoholics"
As far as certain characteristics being inherent in all human beings, it's not instincts and behaviors themselves that got us here, it's the distortion thereof. We all have instincts to love, cherish, and protect our loved ones, it's when we slip into unhealthy patterns of behavior that we need to stop and take a look at them.
Much like Overeaters HAVE to eat in order to survive, but what makes them "overeaters" is the distortion of how they eat, eating itself is healthy, but it becomes unhealthy when it becomes an addiction and a way to deal with ones internal and emotional life.
If I go "answer shopping" enough I can find someone, somewhere to sign off on the most errant ******** I can come up with, if anyone doubts that, lets take a look at the fact Bush was RE-elected, or take a look at say Hitler, or Idi Amin, they all got entire countries to buy the product they were selling.
In my experience it helps to know (and admit) what the problem is before I can even begin to address it, and if it's labeled as "codependency" then I could care less, if in books about codependency I find the solution to what ails me.
It just seems to me, once again, the folks squirming to get out of the whole "codependent labeling" thing are no different then alcoholics squirming to get out of the whole "alcoholic labeling" thing, just another way to continue their own denial, make it "someone else's fault" and thus be able to continue their behavior.
This is my opinion and experience, I realize it will be deeply unpopular here with some folks, that's OK, if you disagree with me, and your experience is different, I am OK with that, I am not the be-all end-all of recovery, It's just my opinion (and experience) that there is a certain segment of the population that will do anything to avoid looking at themselves, and there are certain types of therapy that seem to buy into that ********, a great deal of that experience comes from many years of sponsoring probably literally hundreds of alcoholics, but also in the last year or so in learning about and dealing with codependency as well.
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Originally Posted by Ago 
It's just my opinion (and experience) that there is a certain segment of the population that will do anything to avoid looking at themselves
I'll never forget the fear--even panic--I felt when making my first appointment with a therapist. I felt like such a failure. How could I not handle my own problems and my own life!
Looking back, it's amazing to me that I was so afraid of looking at my own problems. So afraid of admitting that I might actually be able to do things differently and get a better result.
Call me codependent, enabler, dysfunctional, neurotic, or lime green! It doesn't matter. What matters is I have learned a new way of interacting with life that doesn't cause me constant suffering. I never could have learned that if I was unwilling to admit there was something wrong with the old way.
L
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Hmmmmm.....not really sure about a conspiracy or anything like that. What difference does it make what it's called. Call it "Bob" if you like. Some folks have these tendencies (relational issues, if you will), and if there is some way of working on myself and the way I interact with others, then I'll take it whatever it's called!
HG
HG
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Originally Posted by GiveLove
What a terrific waste of time with this person.
It makes it sound like people with codependent tendencies are going into a court of law and getting off on a murder rap. There are hundreds of people here with codependent inclinations and not one of them is trying to get away with anything "because I'm codependent." Some don't mind the label, some do, none of it matters. They're just trying to become safer, happier, saner people by identifying the traits that are hurting them (MAYBE labeling them), and doing something to change them.
What are you getting out of this? How is it helping to ease your pain?
It makes it sound like people with codependent tendencies are going into a court of law and getting off on a murder rap. There are hundreds of people here with codependent inclinations and not one of them is trying to get away with anything "because I'm codependent." Some don't mind the label, some do, none of it matters. They're just trying to become safer, happier, saner people by identifying the traits that are hurting them (MAYBE labeling them), and doing something to change them.
What are you getting out of this? How is it helping to ease your pain?
I agree with most of the posters in that, a label is a label, and I laughed really hard at the "call it Bob" statement.
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I've read some of the conspiracy theories a while back and they reinforced MY belief at the time that there was nothing wrong with me, my AH was the whole problem, not me. Well, a few years forward and I'll tell you from experience that there IS such a thing as co-dependency because I am living proof.
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This has been an interesting thread. My view is that it's quite a complex, shades-of-grey issue without any absolutes.
From looking back at my life, I could say that I'm someone who has had significant self-esteem issues in the past, a skewed and overly romanticised idea of what relationships should be like and the roles that should be played, a real tendency towards using passive-aggressive behaviour to get what I want, an inability to simply ask for what I need or even to realise that having needs of my own is ok, and a bad habit of trying to take the easy way out rather than the hard, but better way. None of that is particularly uncommon among a random selection of the population, I think. But I also think I have these traits to an extent that they have had seriously detrimental effects on my life.
I use the term "co-dependent" about me because it is a convenient short-hand for all of the above. But, just like "alcoholic" means different things to different people, I think "co-dependent" does, too. I'm sure there are some people who use it as a means to not take ownership for what they choose to do. I suspect there are more who use it as yet another stick to beat themselves with - "I'm soooo damaged, everything he said about me being useless was true, maybe I really should stick with him despite the drinking because I'm too messed up to have a hope of a healthier relationship with someone else".
The way I see it is this. I stuck it out in a nine-year relationship with a woman who drank every day and who was regularly emotionally abusive, and occasionally violent. That was not a rational thing to do. My head was stuck so far in the sand about so many things it was a miracle that anybody could so much as see the soles of my feet. Obviously, then, there's something about me that encouraged me to put up with the abuse for so long rather than to make a stand. In some ways you could just see it as emotional immaturity and I think, in hindsight, there's a lot of truth in that. I had neither the tools nor the knowledge to really understand what was going on. But the fact that the combination of traits I have, and the tactics I used to try to control my XAGF's drinking and behaviour, are so neatly encapsulated in what "co-dependent" stands for gives me real pause for thought. That it seems to match the traits and tactics of those who have been in similar positions to me also makes me think there's something to it.
Basically, if someone has a relationship with an A for a few months then walks once the bad behaviour really starts to become clear, then I wouldn't say they were co-dependent. On the other hand, if someone has been in a long-term relationship with an A, and their days are consumed with thoughts of how to get them to stop drinking and/or to stop being so nasty when they're drunk... then I think co-dependency is something to explore. Whatever you call it, it's not healthy.
Mr B.
From looking back at my life, I could say that I'm someone who has had significant self-esteem issues in the past, a skewed and overly romanticised idea of what relationships should be like and the roles that should be played, a real tendency towards using passive-aggressive behaviour to get what I want, an inability to simply ask for what I need or even to realise that having needs of my own is ok, and a bad habit of trying to take the easy way out rather than the hard, but better way. None of that is particularly uncommon among a random selection of the population, I think. But I also think I have these traits to an extent that they have had seriously detrimental effects on my life.
I use the term "co-dependent" about me because it is a convenient short-hand for all of the above. But, just like "alcoholic" means different things to different people, I think "co-dependent" does, too. I'm sure there are some people who use it as a means to not take ownership for what they choose to do. I suspect there are more who use it as yet another stick to beat themselves with - "I'm soooo damaged, everything he said about me being useless was true, maybe I really should stick with him despite the drinking because I'm too messed up to have a hope of a healthier relationship with someone else".
The way I see it is this. I stuck it out in a nine-year relationship with a woman who drank every day and who was regularly emotionally abusive, and occasionally violent. That was not a rational thing to do. My head was stuck so far in the sand about so many things it was a miracle that anybody could so much as see the soles of my feet. Obviously, then, there's something about me that encouraged me to put up with the abuse for so long rather than to make a stand. In some ways you could just see it as emotional immaturity and I think, in hindsight, there's a lot of truth in that. I had neither the tools nor the knowledge to really understand what was going on. But the fact that the combination of traits I have, and the tactics I used to try to control my XAGF's drinking and behaviour, are so neatly encapsulated in what "co-dependent" stands for gives me real pause for thought. That it seems to match the traits and tactics of those who have been in similar positions to me also makes me think there's something to it.
Basically, if someone has a relationship with an A for a few months then walks once the bad behaviour really starts to become clear, then I wouldn't say they were co-dependent. On the other hand, if someone has been in a long-term relationship with an A, and their days are consumed with thoughts of how to get them to stop drinking and/or to stop being so nasty when they're drunk... then I think co-dependency is something to explore. Whatever you call it, it's not healthy.
Mr B.
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What a brilliant, articulate response, Mr. B. I especially agree with the part about staying in an unsatifying, dysfunctional relationship. I don't think being with an alcoholic automatically makes someone a codepedent. I know I had these traits long before I met my A. I also believe that if I hadn't had such low self-worth, and such low standards for what a relationship is, I would have walked much sooner. I accepted much less than what I should have. That has nothing to do with him and everything to do with me.
L
L
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Great replies above. Much more articulate than my grumpy post (sorry 
)
Perhaps with a therapist like this, it's even more important to 'take what you need and leave the rest'. In my own defense, my reaction was based on the importance he seemed to put on debunking of other theories/names/labels rather than using those minutes to address the issue at hand: how to truly help. (I mean, come on - he went so far as to recommend a book that proved his position. How is that helpful to the OP? "Here's what you're NOT")
I always find that kind of professional chest-beating a little irritating.
Mr. B, LTD, I learn something from everything you write.
)Perhaps with a therapist like this, it's even more important to 'take what you need and leave the rest'. In my own defense, my reaction was based on the importance he seemed to put on debunking of other theories/names/labels rather than using those minutes to address the issue at hand: how to truly help. (I mean, come on - he went so far as to recommend a book that proved his position. How is that helpful to the OP? "Here's what you're NOT")
I always find that kind of professional chest-beating a little irritating.
Mr. B, LTD, I learn something from everything you write.
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Even Melody Beattie says in her book that it is just a label, I believe. Here's how I look at it.....if there is no such thing as codependency (or whatever you want to call it) then I am giving all the power to my AH for the situation I am in.
Now that I am awakening to the fact that it has been my behaviors that have kept the cycle going, and helped it to gain speed, then I can do something about it to heal me. When I heal me, the cycle comes to a screeching halt, and it's starting to look like the AH in my life is going to get thrown off on his arse. If he chooses to lay there bleeding and bruised then it is HIS problem, if he gets up and dusts himself off then it is HIS gain. I can no longer be his chauffer and his nurse, and his only chance of survival is for me to let him help himself.......or he can lie there and be eaten by wolves.
Now that I am awakening to the fact that it has been my behaviors that have kept the cycle going, and helped it to gain speed, then I can do something about it to heal me. When I heal me, the cycle comes to a screeching halt, and it's starting to look like the AH in my life is going to get thrown off on his arse. If he chooses to lay there bleeding and bruised then it is HIS problem, if he gets up and dusts himself off then it is HIS gain. I can no longer be his chauffer and his nurse, and his only chance of survival is for me to let him help himself.......or he can lie there and be eaten by wolves.
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I have not heard of "co-depenency conspirisy". But I would like to learn more about it to see if I fit the discription. I probably do as I am an enabler also. Do have any more info other than this. What did your counselor say? I am interested.
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Mr. B
Thanks for giving some insight on this topic. Because I think that I am a co-dependant. I have been in a toxic relatioship for about 5 years and just cannot seem to break it off with my A bf. When he drinks things get out of control. Then the next day it oh I am sorry and I end up foregiving him and same ole thing Happens. What a vicious cycle. I know that I am enabler because I buy him the beer but not really sure about this whole co-dependant thing can anybody give me any more info.
Thanks for giving some insight on this topic. Because I think that I am a co-dependant. I have been in a toxic relatioship for about 5 years and just cannot seem to break it off with my A bf. When he drinks things get out of control. Then the next day it oh I am sorry and I end up foregiving him and same ole thing Happens. What a vicious cycle. I know that I am enabler because I buy him the beer but not really sure about this whole co-dependant thing can anybody give me any more info.
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hmmmmm...The only codependency conspiracy that I am aware of at this point in time is the one between my mother and 2 of my sisters to figure out someway to try to manipulate or trick me into allowing my cross-addicted, self-harming, sexually-acting-out 17 year old niece to come and live with me when she gets out of treatment....It's not happening, but they do seem to be getting quite the co-dependent "rush" out of conspiring about it!
But, seriously, I think there is some validity to the idea that not everyone who gets involved with an alcoholic is necessailry a co-dependent.....but it's also true that, living with an non-recovering addict/alcoholic will definitely eventually cause one to begin to act in co-dependent ways...and that's not a good thing, regardless of whether or not one is, in fact, a bonafide codie to begin with and regardless of whether or not one behaves co-dependently in any other area of one's life.
Also, I think that this question is very much complicated by the fact that, in this culture, a lot of what inculturation women get as women and many ,many people of both sexes get as Christians encourages and even idealizes co-dependent behaviors. I once read a feminist tract in which the author was making the point that, in our culture, being a woman meant being the ideal co-dependent for a power-addict/workaholic.
But, wherever it comes from and how pervasively or how narrowly it manifests in one's life, it's still unhealthy and unhelpful, and it's still a problem....and it's very hard for me to understand how trying to deny that fact or trying to make the argument that just because someone engages in co-dependent behaviors in the context of a dysfunctional alcoholic relationship does not mean that one is a co-dependent is doing anything to help anyone -- bonafide codie or not -- deal with and address the fact that one is engaging in co-dependent behavior.
I mean, my guess is that, if you start to deal with whatever co-dependent behaviors you have engaged in in the context of the alcoholic relationship, you will soon enough be able to see and decide for yourself whether these behaviors are, in your case, isolated behaviors growing out of this particular dysfunctional relationship or part of a deeper, more pervasive pattern for you. Either way, you have to start with the behavior that's presenting itself in the context of this relationship and figure out the rest as you go along. Trying to "figure it out" definitively one way or the other before you start the actual work, seems a little back-*ssward to me, and I do have to wonder about the motivation behind that because it seems, at least on the part of this therapist, to have more that a little of that "he doth protest too much" quality.
freya
But, seriously, I think there is some validity to the idea that not everyone who gets involved with an alcoholic is necessailry a co-dependent.....but it's also true that, living with an non-recovering addict/alcoholic will definitely eventually cause one to begin to act in co-dependent ways...and that's not a good thing, regardless of whether or not one is, in fact, a bonafide codie to begin with and regardless of whether or not one behaves co-dependently in any other area of one's life.
Also, I think that this question is very much complicated by the fact that, in this culture, a lot of what inculturation women get as women and many ,many people of both sexes get as Christians encourages and even idealizes co-dependent behaviors. I once read a feminist tract in which the author was making the point that, in our culture, being a woman meant being the ideal co-dependent for a power-addict/workaholic.
But, wherever it comes from and how pervasively or how narrowly it manifests in one's life, it's still unhealthy and unhelpful, and it's still a problem....and it's very hard for me to understand how trying to deny that fact or trying to make the argument that just because someone engages in co-dependent behaviors in the context of a dysfunctional alcoholic relationship does not mean that one is a co-dependent is doing anything to help anyone -- bonafide codie or not -- deal with and address the fact that one is engaging in co-dependent behavior.
I mean, my guess is that, if you start to deal with whatever co-dependent behaviors you have engaged in in the context of the alcoholic relationship, you will soon enough be able to see and decide for yourself whether these behaviors are, in your case, isolated behaviors growing out of this particular dysfunctional relationship or part of a deeper, more pervasive pattern for you. Either way, you have to start with the behavior that's presenting itself in the context of this relationship and figure out the rest as you go along. Trying to "figure it out" definitively one way or the other before you start the actual work, seems a little back-*ssward to me, and I do have to wonder about the motivation behind that because it seems, at least on the part of this therapist, to have more that a little of that "he doth protest too much" quality.
freya
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Yes, well...although being involved with a man who was an alcoholic, and then one who was an addict (briefly, thank God) seemed to accelerate and magnify my codieness...I can see that I've always had it. I was always drawn to the men who were "fixer-uppers" (and what is an addict if not the ultimate fixer-upper or project). The ones with bipolar disorder and the underemployed. You know the ones.
And not just for primary SO relationships. There is that tendency in every facet of my relational style. I'm always finding myself inappropriately offering way too much help and guidance to people who have not asked and are not going to listen to me anyhow.
And if someone does ask for help? Katie, bar the door! I'm all over it..."What can I do? Do you need a place to stay? Food to eat? A ride? Help to find a job?" Call me your gal Friday. Never mind that my own bills are 25 days late and my car needs a new tire now. Never mind that I need to vacuum and grocery shop and sign up for a class this week.
Because if I can focus on YOU, then I don't have to look at the great yawning void in my own life...or at me. So yeah...I believe I might just be codependent....lol...
KJ
And not just for primary SO relationships. There is that tendency in every facet of my relational style. I'm always finding myself inappropriately offering way too much help and guidance to people who have not asked and are not going to listen to me anyhow.
And if someone does ask for help? Katie, bar the door! I'm all over it..."What can I do? Do you need a place to stay? Food to eat? A ride? Help to find a job?" Call me your gal Friday. Never mind that my own bills are 25 days late and my car needs a new tire now. Never mind that I need to vacuum and grocery shop and sign up for a class this week.
Because if I can focus on YOU, then I don't have to look at the great yawning void in my own life...or at me. So yeah...I believe I might just be codependent....lol...
KJ
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