bruisedbrain

I know this thread is a year old and all but I found it while looking into codependency online and trying to figure out about myself. Anyway...

There is an absolutely excellent article that talks about a sort of "codependency conspiracy". Unfortunately this forum won't let me paste a link into my post, but if you google "How the Codependency Movement is Ruining Marriages" it should be the first thing that pops up. It is written by William F. Harley.

Now this site seems to be primarily for people dealing with addicts, so that article may not be as relevant. However for non-drug related relationships I think that offers some invaluable insight.

If I were to make a definition of my own on the subject of codependency, I would say a codependent is a person who does not make and/or sustain reasonable boundaries that are healthy for themselves and the individuals they interact with. I think healthy can be different for different people, however not to too extreme of an extent that intuition and general observation take total backseats on the subject.

I really cherish a lot of my "codependent" tendencies. I feel like they make me a more socially and lovingly in tuned individual. I am terrible at setting healthy boundaries, but I am learning and getting better at doing so(I think and hope so anyway). Setting boundaries is becoming easier the more my "codependent" and "selflessly giving nature" emotionally and rationally realize that certain boundaries actually result in a better life, or the potential for better life, for the other individual(...and myself, that's supposed to be important too right? ), and in many cases offers them the only opportunity they'll have to grow. So sometimes giving more is actually not giving in.

As for having a total giving nature all the time, like having unpaid bills and trying to help people financially....I think a possible healthy way of looking at that is that you find value in helping others which is absolutely wonderful, so to maximize your helping of others you should make sure you have a strong foundation in your life(such as paid bills) in order to be secured enough to best help the most people as much as you'd like to throughout your life in the present and future. Sacrifice short term helping and replace it with sincere intent for more efficient long term helping.
I like points of view that don't make wanting to give and love seem unhealthy


Anyway. That's where I'm at so far. Best wishes everyone.

Babyblue

I am in mental health so maybe I am biased but I think what people who question the co-dependency movement do so because there is this confusion people have between attachment and codependency. Our brains are wired since birth to attach, it is for survival.

One of the saddest things I learned in studying attachment is how very young children still attach to a horribly abusive adult. You can't say a 2 year old is co-dependent though. They ARE dependent on them. As we get older we are not dependent upon those attachments but we do still attach. The difference is that as adults, we now have a slew of issues we bring to our relationships. Some very unhealthy ones too. Issues that may foster codependency (that unhealthy emotional 'need' for a person).

But the reasons for the unhealthy attachments in relationships go beyond 'I am co-dependent'. They come from our upbringing, environments, trauma etc. The problem with the term arises when it is used to cover all the dynamics in unhealthy relationships or the people drawn to them. When there are so many other factors involved as well.

starlight40

For me The label of codependant has helped me open a door to he lifetime of patterns and behaviors I have exhibited since childhood.

I think i can even trace it back to its core now.
Since childhood. Any want, need, interest I had wither it be to go outside and play/ or take dance lessons/ or even go to college/ would be dangled in front of me for a time. then quickly snatched away. And any complaint on my part would be met with me being made to believe that I was selfish to want these things, and I just needed to deal with it.
(I spent 2 yrs in college before finding out my father had never paid any of the tuition! (never did find out what he did w/ my student loans) Not only was I not allowed back, but I could not take my trancripts because I had never paid for the classes!)

So I've spent my whole adult life helping other people fulfil their needs, because I had become so disconnected with my own.

Realizing now that there is a name for this makes me finally feel empowered to change my programming, and finally seek the life I've never before dared dream of. A life of my own!

Thanks for this post. very helpful

LexieCat

We've discussed Harley's article on here before, I think.

I do think that there is a knee-jerk tendency on the part of some therapists eager to slap a label/diagnosis on everybody. Whether something is "pathological" or not really depends, I think, on whether the behavior is somehow maladaptive and causing problems for the individual or others in his/her life, and whether it can be readily changed by pointing it out. IOW, if I am doing something bad for me and/or my relationship, but I can change it with a little effort, I don't think that equals any kind of "disorder". OTOH, if having it pointed out to me causes me to deny it, ignore it, continue to do it regardless of the consequences, then maybe I have a serious "issue" that requires therapy of some kind.

I also think it's possible to have a personality that is excessively "helping" or "rescue" oriented without necessarily being in a relationship that qualifies as co-dependency, just as it's possible to have narcissistic personality traits without being a pathological "narcissist".

Being aware of personality traits that don't serve you well and learning to "work around" them so they don't control your life is something ALL healthy, successful human beings need to learn, I think.

fourmaggie

for me, i just did not like being walked all over and it hurt every freak'n time...and i was SICK to take it...i needed to change, my attitude needed to change...and i felt i was worth it...did not know the "name" of what i am...just i needed to change "it"...so BOB no more am i....*lol*

LaTeeDa

I see behaviors and traits as two different things. I don't believe there is such a thing as codependent traits. There are personality traits, which are neutral. Then there are condependent behaviors, which are harmful.

For instance, having a giving, generous, nurturing personality does not mean one is automatically codependent. Behaving in ways that hurt ourselves and using the excuse of being a giving, generous, nurturing person is codependent. It's my choice if I want to use my inherent personality traits in a way that benefits myself and others, or in destructive or self-destructive ways. Depends on the behavior I exhibit as a manifestation of those traits.

L

Chino

Thank you for that. I frequently say codie traits but I see the distinction you've presented. Positive or negative behaviors feed off our personality traits. Sound right?

Buffalo66

I tend to not label myself as co dependent, or anything else.

I do IDENTIFY myself as someone who for whatever reason, has trouble (has HAD trouble, wink) walking away from abusive, negative, life draining treatment of me.

I was abused as a child, had one serious alcoholic parent, and one who became an alcoholic in my adulthood.

I have read all the books, and, quite frankly, no one persons formative years are identical. I know that I have a lot of psycho-trendy labeled tendencies.: PTSD, anxiety, codependency, perhaps even abused woman syndrome, but I dont want to hang out in that terminal waiting anymore than I want to eat a bowl of rocks.

It does not matter what you call it, or if there are people who want to diminish the behavior. It is your behavior, and identifying yourself as a person who cannot keep your eyes on your own paper because it is less painful than looking at your own is a good practice, whether someone tells you it is or not, or if they call it a fancy, acceptable name or not.

Some things stand true on their own. Humans do certain things, as animals will.

We are humans, and we have been conditioned, all of us.

I dont feel weird if someone labels me codependent or anything else, right now. I just dont like who I have become in my struggle to be in reationship with some of the people in my life.

I want to change that, and if my counselor or alanon group call it codependency, or whatever, I am not going to quibble. We all know what it means.

it is a surrender of ourselves and our needs, and our own crap.

My crap has been sitting here unattended for so long, just soaking up the reasoning that it was all him that made me this way, and I dont accept that anymore.

I have choices.

LaTeeDa

Well, it's not an official position or anything, but just the way I look at it. It came from a conversation I had with my sister when I first started down the road to recovery. She's always challenging my thought process. (in a good way )

Anyhow, she said it seemed like I was trying to change who I am. And she didn't think that was a good idea, because she likes who I am.

So, I had to consider whether I was changing who I am, or how I behave. And I decided that even if I wanted to change who I am, I don't think I could. (the traits) But, changing what I do with what I've got (the behavior) is doable, and in my case, it was desirable.

So, I've decided to use my superpowers for good rather than evil.

Bwahahahahahahahah:rotfxko

L

Cyranoak

...I'd like to know more.

That said, many people are uncomfortable with labels, but labels make talking about things easier in my opinion. I see this same thing come up all the time with the phrase "character defects." Boy does that get some people going. They just can't accept the idea they may have a defect. They then spend a bunch of effort relabeling it and redefining it, but it looks and feels like denial to me.

Am I codependent all the time? Nope. Often, yes. The same is true of my controlling behaviors and my enabling behaviors. Being able to put a label on it helps me, and I'm self aware enough to know I do it.

That said, I've seen people go to great lengths to prove to themselves and others that they aren't codependent (which I think is fairly codependent).

Conspiracy? I think not.

Enjoy the book!

Cyranoak

Chino

That's me in a nutshell, too!

I kept running into a brick wall with some of my inherent traits and finally figured out I can't change my DNA. I had to embrace them before I could learn how to use them in positive ways. My bloodthirsty DNA trait took the longest

StarCat

Codependency is a very difficult concept in some ways, because there really isn't a solid definition or distinction.

I think someone who is 100% codependent has an inability to be an individual, and always has to be part of some sort of "we".
My the same token, it's extremely unhealthy to be on the other side of the spectrum, and have an inability to be part of a "we".

Some of the best experiences in life are part of "we" situations - healthy relationships, good friends, good family - but it's important to understand who you are in that relationship, and be able to say "no" rather than become enmeshed.
Likewise, there's nothing wrong with going out of your way to make someone happy, if that's truly something that you wanted to do.

I think I said this in another thread, part of the value in taking time or effort or resources to help someone out is in sacrificing that time, effort, or resources without any attempt to keep score, and no expectation that they would be returned, either literally or symbolically.
If you expect something in return, or you do not value yourself enough to value the time, effort, or resources you put into the assistance, then what is it really worth, anyway?

I've found that the good deeds I do for people mean so much more now, because I value myself, that I can let go and not expect anything in return. (And heck, not even let them know I was the one who did it!)
Otherwise, it's just one more chore, and something we belittle ourselves over later for not doing, or not doing enough.

Visitor99999

The problem is that codependency theory has been expanded far beyond its original purpose, which was to help the significant others of people with substance abuse issues. Now the label is slapped on anyone who walks into a therapist's office, often after a very brief consultation. It has become the "diagnosis du jour," and therapists seem to be giddy over the convenience of slapping this label on patients without taking too much time to find out if it's appropriate.

I personally went for bereavement counseling and was told to go and buy Melody Beattie's book, which I unfortunately did. I am a caregiver whose care recipient just died recently, and no one involved had any substance abuse issues. Also, I am not in a romantic relationship and I don't even have close friends, so the only person she could be insinuating I was codependent on was my dead mother. I find that intensely insulting because it totally degrades the relationship I had with my mother, and it speaks ill of a dead woman who suffered greatly and did nothing to harm anyone.

The implication seemed to be that I was somehow sick because I participated in caring for my mother, which I had to do because you can't just leave an elderly person on the street and drive off. I was so angry and upset after reading information about codependency theory on the Internet and in Ms. Beattie's book, I realized this therapist's "help" was more like mental abuse and I cancelled all future appointments.

It still makes me mad every time I think about the fact that I went to this therapist for help in dealing with a loved one's death after a long and emotionally distressing illness, and instead of having any sympathy, she had the nerve to brand me with this ugly label, which I really did nothing to earn. I don't have to adopt anyone else's value system, especially when they are pushing a concept that was basically invented out of thin air by people like Melody Beattie. She appears to have appointed herself as God of her own cult.

Any "disease" that includes denial as a symptom is a trap, because no matter how much the diagnosis may be wrong, when you refuse to accept it people just say you're in denial. That's why I have no respect for the theory or the people who are pushing it as a cure-all for any and all personal problems.

Babyblue

There are good and well trained therapists and some not so good. Sounds like you found a not so good one who was poorly trained. Bereavement is very real as is grief. I'm sorry you landed a bad one but there are excellent and well trained ones out there.

As for myself, I'm not a huge Beattie fan, I have one of her books and I find some really salient points to what she says but to me that is all they are. I like to scour whatever thoughts or theories I can which help me grow and learn.

fourmaggie

funny, i was thinking about this...and i do agree...i was brought up in a trait alcoholic home...no one drank..but it was the elephant in the room...i am learning alot about this too...i do carry the "alcoholic trait"

fourmaggie

isnt it fun that you have some one that can challenge you like that...i use to have someone like that in my life....

but i do agree, its about changing the behaviour and attitudes..

as popeye says " I AM WHAT I AM"

fourmaggie

I am sorry that you had a rotton person to help you with your grief..i too had a rotton councellor and i cancelled all my appointment with her because of the facts in the 'room"

I am no way GOD, and i believe you have it all wrong with MELODY BEATTIE...

when you are in the worlds of alcoholism, your trapped. you think you have no one to understand and talk too...I love Melodys books....because i can TAKE WHAT I WANT AND LEAVE THE REST...just like with anything else in my life...because its that... MINE

Melody has some insights that i never really thought of before....

Visitor99999

I think codependency theory can be helpful to the original group of people for whom it was designed. Many people get so mired in destructive relationships that they really need a coach or mentor to help them break away and establish their own lives.

Unfortunately the definition of codependency has been broadened to include virtually everyone. I have seen estimates that 96% of people have codependency issues. If 96% of people exhibit a trait or behavior, there is something wrong with calling that trait or behavior pathological or somehow deviant and sick.

I think codependency theory was expanded to the point of being meaningless because the people who were making a profit off the books and other self-help materials saw they could get rich by expanding the definition to include almost the entire human race. That is a much bigger and more lucrative market.

Why did it work? One reason might be because there is no objective scientific test for codependency, therefore no one can prove conclusively that they are not codependent. All the booksellers had to do was use the power of suggestion to convince people there was something wrong with them, and they made another sale.

I am actually thinking about donating my books to a local battered women's shelter because it might help someone break free from an abusive relationship and establish their own life. At least the books would be more likely to fall into the hands of someone who could actually benefit from them.

lillamy

I guess my opinions put me in the BOB group here...

I don't really care what you call it, or whether 96% of the population is "diagnosed" with it -- if the BOB tools help you, then I'm all for making them available to people.

Besides -- we're here at SR because we have friends and family who are addicts, and I don't know that anyone is arguing that the term "codependent" isn't applicable to that subgroup of society? I mean, if "codependent" is overused and abused in other contexts, that's really somebody else's problem.

fourmaggie

I guess its like everything else that you READ, opens your mind and you realize that we have choices..and we can change if we really want to...but again that is my choice...
bottom line...we have a choice to stay where we are or, change...

I like my options