Lilyflower

Thanks Laurie, did you say you had the thread removed from the F&F for A's or Substance Abusers forum? I am confused if you meant F&F as it is still in our F&F forum on pg 2 of threads.

I would like to stress AGAIN though for everyone, as this seems to be the running theme of responses now...

I DID NOT post this to have a go at the mods/greaters/admins

I HAVE pm'd a mod.

I raised this thread to see if anyone else SHARED MY CONCERN.

My thread is NOT a question of whether or not the mods do their job sufficiently.

I had posted already that I was not against the threads or the posters

Please draw this distinction - the thread is to talk about whether anyone had noticed or felt like I do about the increasing cross over of themes and members through the forums

Can we stick to the original subject that was raised, I would not like this thread to devolve.

Lily xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

FormerDoormat

I, too, feel that the lines between the various forums are becoming blurred and that there has been a significant crossover of both members and themes into the F&F forum over the past few months. So much so at times that I've had to check to make sure I hadn't inadvertently logged on to the wrong forum.

freya

Well, for me personally, I find that there are many, many things that are very closely connected to my recovery in Al Anon...and, just in general, I have a very, very hard time compartmentalizing my life / my"self" / my experience / my recovery into neat little boxes that could very easily be judged "relevant" or "irrelevant." I'm also guessing that what might be highly relevant or of-lesser-relevance to any individual's recovery as an Al Anon or a co-dependent or just as someone dealing with alcoholics/addicts in his/her life will be different for different people and will even shift over time for any one person.

.....and, for those of us who work 12 Step programs, Step 12 does kinda require that we try, insofar as possible to relate our recoveries to and work our recoveries in each and every area of our lives...So, at some point, everything becomes not only relevant, but necessarily part of the focus of our Al Anon recovery....in the sense that everything must be examined through the lens of my recovery progress and principles.

Also, looking for instance at the "mental health" issue, it seems to me that that kind of topic might be approached from different perspectives in different forums. For, example, in the "mental health" itself, I would expect that people who suffer from mental health issues might be sharing their E,S & H about that experience. In an A forum, I could see how it might be important for alcoholics to discuss with other As the connections of mental health issues with alcoholism, etc.... and here I can see how it might be necessary for people to talk either about how living with a A has affected or might affect one's mental health or share with others mental health issues that are connected with alcoholism itself. Actually, I remember a very interesting (to me) thread from awhile ago where someone brought up the issue of whether or not mental illness somehow "changed to rules" around how we might deal with an alcoholic loved-one.

I can't really see any way that it is possible, without imposing a one-size-must-fit-all formula onto everyone's recovery issues and processes, to draw a clear and exact line between what's relevant and what's not -- because, as I said, it seems like it could and would vary a lot from person to person.

I guess, for me, unless something obviously violates forum rules and guidelines, if it's not relevant and/or helpful to me personally, I just don't read it....and because of that -- and probably also because I do read a lot of different forums and get a lot out of them even if they are not focused specifically and exactly on my personal issues -- I have not noticed a significant (again, to me) shift in this forum's content. I personally would be very uncomfortable with a policy that limited people's sharing here to what's comfortable for and relevant to a few or a small or a vocal group of people -- even if I myself happened to be included in such a group.

freya

laurie6781

I had asked that it be removed from the Alcoholism forum and it was.

I questioned it being on this forum, as again it is 'medical information' that by the rules of the site we do not do.

I don't know what the decision is for the Friends and Family, I do know what it was for the 'Alcoholism' forum.

Love and hugs,

freya

I read that post. And I did not see it as medical advice (which, BTW, is what is prohibited by the forum rules, not "medical information").

Actually, a lot of information about Alcoholism is medical information in the form of medical opinions, journal articles, and research...as someone whose life is affected by the disease of alcoholism, it is important to me (and part of my recovery program) to learn what I can about alcoholism, and, obviously, that is going to mean taking in some "medical information".....which, I must then, of course, evaluate for myself as to its merit and worth.

I'm not sure how someone posting relevant links to research in the field of alcoholism (even questionable research such as that article) constitutes "medical advice." It would be advice if someone were to say "Hey, I think you should try this." If someone says: "I tried this and it worked for me," it's personal experience, and if someone reports on it or posts a link, that's information. Posting information does not even necessarily mean the poster "approves of that information"; the poster could just be seeking dialogue or even just thinking it was ludicrous and wanting to "share a laugh" so-to-speak.

As adults, we are all responsible for processing and evaluating information ourselves, aren't we? Also, for me personally as an adult part of whose recovery involves my learning to stop trying to control others and/or trying to protect them from themselves, I am responsible for respecting the rights of others to have access to and to evaluate whatever information is out there for themselves, too.

.....And as far as I can tell from the responses to that post, people are doing very well for themselves in that regard.

freya

BTW: From the forum rules: 10. Medical Advice: No Posts giving medical advice, medication advice, or psychiatric advice. Do not use the forum to give or ask for professional medical or psychiatric advice. If you are a medical professional, please remember the forums and chat are for peer support only and not to be used for distributing professional medical advice and/or using the forum to represent your professional services. Medical and Psychiatric advice includes giving a diagnosis, treatment plan, medication advice and dosage suggestions, over the counter and natural home remedies that should be approved by medical professionals. Detox can be dangerous and life threatening at times. Please consult with your physician.

embraced2000

i have seen a huge change in the content on this forum over the past two years. i can remember lots of sharing of experience, strength, and hope. i can remember lots of good recovery related materials, and great support for people in crisis.

i know things change and people move on and landscapes morph into different scenery, and i think the same has happened here.

is it for the better or worse? i don't know. i just know things change, and sometimes i feel lost in the f&f forum after being gone for a while.

what things make me feel lost? well, different people.....which is good....i'm thankful they are seeking support and help, a different "feel" about the forum, which i can't really put my finger on. i do know that so many of the strong people that used to be here are gone now and that is sad.

i don't know the politics of it all, i just know some really good people are gone, and now i'm amongst some of the "older ones" and i'm so messed up, who do i go to?

MeHandle

Thank u.

Thank u. As i newbie it is interesting to go back through someone's statistics and see both the circle of behavior and the growth, their journey of which can be learned from.

To help lead people specifically to the overall subject matter they are searching for. And I agree with how you define your view. This does not negate a cross over, giving both moderator and member room to discuss why they believe it should be moved or left. ( violations are not crossover topics)

My above point addresses your concern. If you believe the walls between forums are breaking down then you many want to catalog the forum threads, highlighting your what you do not see as related, giving evidence to your claim. The potential for forums to become enmeshed will always be present. That is why there is structure and moderators and the invitation for posters to bring there concerns to our moderators. That posters"may not feel safe" is part of the concern you are raising as a defense in your argument to enforce what you see as a 'breech' of a thread topic.

Any action that might be taken on a challenge to follow a set of authoritive rules moves from the position of how i feel or how you feel to the area of truth, to be viewed objectively beyond how I may feel about it. Hence my comment that I have opinions and feeling, but with a disclaimer that my opinions on this are viewed through my very diverse by nature. It is or isn't an actual problem that needs to be corrected.

As to the move you feel and see, I will not comment as it your observation and not one that i would be able to agree or diagree with supported by evidence, even if i was interested in doing so, which I am not.( to new;-) The point being that this is a website of history. I could go back and research, even as a newbie, and enter my opinion based on me reading the threads and "statistics" of everyone here.

And my thoughts on this is I hope this thread will be helpful in some way to all who stop by to read it.

I'm glad you saw my post with the heart of respect it was meant with. thank you for asking my thoughts instead of assuming what they might be.

love tammy

ps: I gotta go so I didn't proof read...lol..lol... not that such helps me much

Seren

I used to belong to another forum that had to do with adult acne (something I suffer with in my advanced age). If members began threads that were not in the correct subject area, the moderators moved them and posted a note saying that the thread was now in....wherever. That was a much smaller membership than here, and the number of moderators allowed for this to happen. This is a much larger membership, and since most folks work, I imagine that finding enough people to volunteer as moderators is tough.

What troubles me the most about this particular topic is the tone that I am getting that all of us who have not been members very long are just messing it up for everyone who has been here longer. I had truly hoped this would be a place where members would allow the newcomers a bit of grace and provide some gentle hints about posting etiquette. I am sorry my presence and that of those like me is offensive to the more long-term members.

Best, HG

Barbara52

I don't see a single post that shows anything remotely like the attitude you describe. JMO

historyteach

Hydro,

Please know this:
As a newbie, you are the most important member. You bring to the front what it was like for each and every one of us at our beginning.

You are not an offense. You are not a problem in any way. You help each of us remember the pain we experienced before we began to find our own recovery, thanks to alanon and the 12 Step program.

Please do not, for one minute, think you are "messing" anything up.
You are on your way in your recovery.
You will take what you need and hopefully, will leave the rest behind.

I learned, years ago, to find some people, whose recovery looked like something I wanted. And to follow what they were doing. And in doing so, my own life began to get better. By following those who had peace in their lives, I found my own path to serenity. What a blessing it was.

Thank you for reminding me, once more, what it was once like.
Know that we are here for you, too.

Shalom!

historyteach

Please lets remember to stay on topic here.

Shalom!

bbfan

I am new here and lots of other strong people are here too. Thats life people come and go in our life. I live in Canada way up north and i am snowed in. I tried to get to a meeting but i live on top of a hill and the snow plow has not come yet. so i am looking to talk to another alcoholic. need to share with someone

CatsPajamas

colettek,

It would probably be better if you started your own thread and tell us a little bit more about yourself and what you are struggling with. That's the best way for other members to be able to share their experience, strength and hope with you.

Cats
Forum Mod

CatsPajamas

The members and topics on this forum ebb and flow like the tide. I've been a member here for 6.5 years and have seen many come and go. Some are gone because they got angry and left. Some are gone because they found what they needed and have moved on in their lives. Others go away for awhile, but they always know where to go if they need a bit of support once again.

You are right, the main purpose of this forum is for us is to offer and ask for support from other people who are Friends and Family of Alcoholics. Sometimes there are threads that seem a bit "off".

There are times when an Alcoholic will come over to this forum and offer to share his or her own experiences. If this was a face to face Al Anon meeting, that person would be welcomed at the meeting, but would also be asked to keep his/her focus on the Al Anon principles and to not share AA stuff in the Al Anon meeting. In my own meetings we have many double winners ( sober in AA, working on friends and family issues in Al Anon). AA and Al Anon are different programs with different agendas etc.

With that being said, our forum here is NOT an Al Anon meeting, and those rules don't apply here. This forum is for anyone who is a friend or family member of an alcoholic. Alcoholics themselves have friends who might well be alcoholics, so they are welcome too.

The thread in question, the one about the Emminent Cardiologist , has been moved and relocated a time or 2. The Moderators have been watching it very closely as it teeters on our line of NOT giving medical advice. IF a person says "this is what I did and it worked for me", that isn't giving advice. IF a person says "this is what I think is going on and you should take this medicine or take this action" and it's really something that a doctor or other medical person should be involved in, etc, that crosses the line . It gets a bit dicey, and we have to monitor those threads while at the same time allow people to express their opinions and share their own experiences. We have doctors who sign on as members and are surprised to learn we don't want them giving advice either. It's against our rules, plain and simple.

The bottom line is that everyone is welcome to come here and to share. I recommend a few things:

If someone bothers you, put that person on "ignore" so you won't have to read what s/he says.

If a topic disturbs you, you can either participate in the thread, OR you can move on to another one. Perhaps you'd feel better if you give some time to a new person who is struggling.

I hope this helps. As a moderator AND a member, I understand your frustration and concern about some of the threads and the posters. If we all try to stick to the topic of a particular thread, and share our own experience, strength and hope as we go along, this will continue to be a place of sharing and healing.

Thanks

Cats

MeHandle

Hi Hydro,

Lilyflowers comments did not state that the topics she believed should not be on the thread were introduced here by newbies or longer time members, nor could i find she insinuated such.

I also understood one of her concerns to be that the friends and family forum should not have certain thread lines because she believes it may effect members as it being clearly a safe place to share.

My concern at this thread was that newer members may assume the concern upon themselves, being new members. But Lilyflower also claimed she has seen a change for the last few years, so here concern is not focused to accuse the new members.

I like embraced2000 persective on this though: "i know things change and people move on and landscapes morph into different scenery, and i think the same has happened here."

But as for us newbies I love what historytecho wrote in a direct response to you:
"As a newbie, you are the most important member. You bring to the front what it was like for each and every one of us at our beginning." Maybe even remembering the feelings of a newbie try to get familiar with this huge of a website," Am I doing it right, is this how it works, I'm I breaking a rule, am I the one that is messing up the structure of how things go here that someone is concerned about?"

And i know historytech speaks the truth, and that lilyflower is really concerned, and that resentful wife and freya are looking out for the people too. I believe they are all acting on step 12 in there way.

And again, thanks to the moderators!!!!!!!!!!! Go 12 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

love tammy

Bjen

""I guess, for me, unless something obviously violates forum rules and guidelines, if it's not relevant and/or helpful to me personally, I just don't read it....and because of that -- and probably also because I do read a lot of different forums and get a lot out of them even if they are not focused specifically and exactly on my personal issues -- I have not noticed a significant (again, to me) shift in this forum's content. I personally would be very uncomfortable with a policy that limited people's sharing here to what's comfortable for and relevant to a few or a small or a vocal group of people -- even if I myself happened to be included in such a group."" ------Thanks Freya

I can't remember how to do the quote thing. But that's what I was thinking. Sometimes I have something to write about but wonder if it belongs here. I guess I am far enough along in my recovery that many of the things I used to write about aren't on my mind. My AB isn't around anymore, I don't have a lot to write personally about it. But I do believe my life now is still very affected by what I went through. I like to think I can still share with you guys and hope someone can relate. I know I still have advice to give occasionally.

I don't read over all the forums when I want to post something. I don't analyze to see where it fits best always. I think myself and probably others see this as our comfort zone. Been here a while and visiting with friends?

Just some thoughts..

peaceteach

I like your first post, lakshmi2009. For me it is a reminder that as a codependent, it is so easy for me to put my focus on someone else's issues and problems, usually the A's in my life, instead of remembering to keep my focus on myself and turn them over to their HP's. In this forum, we see so many new people come on with the same intentions as I remember having before I discovered Melody Beattie, Codependent No More, and the 12 steps approach to codependency. It was on the family and friends of substance abusers that I recognized the addiction in my son and remembered step one--I am powerless over his addictions. If we allow newbies to continue to put their focus on the A without the reminder that this is misguided according to surviving codependency issues, then we are not helping. If we allow threads for treating alcoholism or that offer suggestions for helping the alcoholic or addict on the friends and family forum, without reminding members that our focus needs to be taken OFF the addict/alcoholic and put where it will help US, the ones struggling with our own problems due to codepency, then we are once again minimizing ourselves, our needs, and our problems.

Like you, I don't want to minimize what I've gone through anymore. I don't want to be 2nd place either. I didn't become addicted to substances when life got tough for me; I didn't shirk my responsibilities as a wife and parent. I stayed strong when no one else did. I stayed until I couldn't keep my strength any longer. Then I found Melody Beattie, and realized I didn't have to sacrifice myself anymore. I realized that that wasn't love, and it wasn't healthy, and it was okay to admit that and start taking care of just me. And that in turn, there was a better chance that it would benefit my A's if I did take my focus off them and put it where it belonged, on me. And that trusting my HP and trusting theirs was best, rather than trying to maintain a control I never really had.

I like this thread, Lily. I think it's good stuff to remember why we came here, we friends and family of alcoholics and addicts. I think it brings back to the forefront the issues that codependents face every day. Ours are just as tragic, just as painful as the addicts and alcoholics. Our addictions are just as strong, this want or need to help others, to fix others, rather than to allow ourselves a life of self-fulfillment and spiritual growth and happiness.

JenT1968

Certainly understand your points Lily: creating safe spaces for people is important and the mental health forum won’t pick up unless more people use it, but perhaps it is somewhere that people “graduate to” once they have found there feet and a safe place here? I agree it’s a difficult balance.

I haven't revisited the thread re mental health but my recollection is that people spoke about their personal experiences with prescriptions, not gave medical advice. I do think that is very different, but I understand your worry.

Like I said, I have no problem with the rules being gently enforced, whatever they are.

I remember when I first visited here many moons ago, I was somewhat put off by these sorts of discussions. For me that was because I was very conflict-averse. Now I’ve come to realise that people expressing their opinions, whether they are contrary to mine or not, is healthy and not something I have to hide from as long as it is done respectfully, and with an eye to try and understand the best possible angle that a person could be speaking from.

Can I ask people, if we have read the forum rules and are still unsure whether a topic is best placed here or elsewhere, is there an "advisory service" LOL? Can we pm a moderator for this? Especially for those of us who are sometimes hyper aware to perceived criticism? (I try my best, but sometimes I have to “talk myself down” quite a lot!).

I have always loved that people in crisis or hurting can post here even in an “inappropriate forum” and receive loving help and support (whether that be “strokes” or “tough love”).

Lilyflower

Ceridwen, I am still learning to over come this! It may seem that since I started this thread and the other posts I make offering a different opinion, that I am confident with debate.

This is not true, you have no idea how much anxiety I get when I realise someone has replied to my threads. I feel sick in the stomach before I even read what has been said.

When I was growing up, if an opinion was offered which differed from the adults around, you were shouted down, accused of being argumentative and basically forced to be silent. The ongoing motto in our home was be seen and not heard.

I never had opportunity to practice giving my opinion and debating view points with adults who encouraged me and offered any constructive advice. It was always think their way or take the highway lol!

This has been something that over the last year has gotten a bit easier for me, but as I say sometimes the anxiety comes back. I still find I have to push myself to say what I have to say and not quiten down in the cornor (at work and at home) and I still feel that I am practicing my skills in debate that would probably be accomplished by others in their young - teenager years.

I am getting there and it is good to feel that I can do that here.

I am thankful that everyone participated in this thread and on the whole I feel that it was a successful debate and that everyone took each post in the manner it was intended and could discuss in a healthy way! It has been an interesting read.

Lily xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

JenT1968

oh its a work in progress for me too, I'm much better able to voice opionions in email and on-line (because I can take my time and consider), but in person, in the heat of battle, I'm a wreck LOL. I'm not so scared of others disagreeing though. Before, if two people I didn't know were having a disagreement (even a friendly one) it could trigger a panic attack.

Thank you for the thread, I think it is a discussion worth having.

and thank you for describing how your childhood was, mine was similar, and I've just realised I do exactly the same to my son: I cut him off, and shut his opinions down all the time. My new year's resolution is definately going to be about developing patience.