bluejupiter

I agree denny. Sadly we are hoping he gets a substantial sentence stemming from the DUI/DUR/accident/injuries in October. Maybe it will be long enough for him to get some treatment and get his mental health under control. His parents are going to get a private psychiatrist to treat him while he is in custody, if hes willing. He has another court date on January 8th.
I will get uninvolved as soon as he is sentenced. Until then I am very interested in what happens.

Silverberry1331

Hi Jup!

Yes, my husband's too. No need to respond to his manipulation. I used to feel that all things said to me dignified a response. My husband, classic case. Don was quick to use suicide: a) because he knew it would get a reaction b) because he was capable with two major attempts under his belt c) because he was clinically diagnosed with depression that required medication, and thus a valid form of manipulation in his opinion. When I have a situation where my no-contact boundary must be broken, and he starts in with the manipulation, I found that silence is the best answer. I pause, and skip over. They say silence is golden, and to me it sure is. Also, in Al Anon, I am told that I don't have to attend every fight I am invited to...I extend this to rule of thumb to arguments, gossip, manipulation, and pity parties. I am not perfect but it is progress not perfection.

BTW, the not listening and hearing what he only wants to hear is the addiction talking. I try to remember that addiction is fueling my husband's behavior, more so than his mental illness. I am not discounting the mental illness here, but much of his behavior and his symptoms are driven by the addiction. My husband's depression, suicidal tendencies, clouded judgement, "seeing spirits", and hearing the voices of his dead mother and brother are exacerbated when he is using. Medication and soberity have showed that the symptoms of his mental illness are significantly controllable. I point this out not to down play mental illness or its severity, rather I found in my situation that the mentally ill addict and codependent family use mental illness as an excuse for all this craziness and our rationality that "he couldn't help it", which was our way of excusing our disease of codependency that allowed us to "take the situation in hand"...

Hugs Jup...AL ANON!

denny57

That was true for me, too, even with other people. It's very freeing to know that all questions don't deserve an answer, either. Today, I'm quite comfortable letting someone know that.

bluejupiter

I considered writing to him in jail, but then it occurred to me that i really have nothing to say. Get help. Thats really all i can say to him right now. And i also know we are done - and I think I may be more of a stressor to him, something else for him to be concerned about instead of himself. I think my lack of communication will speak louder than anything i say to him. Eventually he will see that he lost his house, his girl, his stuff, his freedom, his foreseeable future - and it will sink in. Maybe. I am detached. Now that the worry of him freezing to death or god knows what else is gone - and i know he is safe and warm and fed - i feel like I can walk away. i wont take him back. No way!! Why? Am i willing to wait probably years for a guy who sadly may go down this path again? Nope, I am done, I'm no longer 'in love' with him - but I still care. It still saddens me when I let myself think about it.

KitFoxx

I don't disagree with any of the posters; all have their valid points. I just wanted to chip in about my own experience.

I was homeless, injured and insane due to alcohol. One woman who believed in me, who knew I hated my alcoholic lifestyle, decided to stick it out with me. I put her through hell, I know. But through therapy, AA, and some prescriptions that helped balance my life, I am now sober and a very nice guy.

I still have cravings. I had two slips in the time she worked with me (4 years now). I still have the "dry drunk" syndrome once in a while. But this woman saved me from a horrible life. I now try to repay her by working as hard as I can to help with construction projects and her day-to-day management of the ranch. I can never repay her, because she gave me life. For that I am eternally grateful. She truly did save my life; without her, I would definitely be committed somewhere or incarcerated. Not dead - God is not through with me yet and there's no way I would die, would just live as a miserable insane drunk. But now I have a life, thanks to her.

If you truly love him, if there's any way he can get the treatment he needs, then please don't kill him. But on the other hand, if there's no hope, then do what you need to do to take care of you. I am living proof things can change, but maybe I'm the exception to the rule. My prayers are with you.

bluejupiter

Thanks Kitfoxx. Who knows what the future will hold, but as of right now - there is absolutely nothing I can do for him. Funny - I'm listening to iTunes on random, and right now its Amy Winehouse and right now she is singing I can't help you, if you wont help yourself. (Help Yourself off the album Frank) So yeah - there ya go. He needs to help himself. I've tried to help and he wont help himself.

Silverberry1331

I congrat you on your soberity. Like you said it was your choice that you had to make. IMHO, there is nothing wrong with people having hope for the addict. But it is not my job anymore to stick around and have abuse hurled at me, craziness in my life, in the hopes that my alcoholic will come around. I have a disease called co-dependency. I am addicted to the addict. I have to put my recovery first. Jupiter has almost lost her job, her sanity, and so on. I was on the same path. My trying to "save" him came before all else, because I thought that I would magically be the answer to all his problems: Just a little more encouragement, a little more advice, a little more love, a little more action, a little more crying, a little more a little more a little more...I had nothing left. Her detachment is not giving up on him, it is leaving him to hit his bottom, so he can choose recovery...

Myself, like Jupiter, are dry drunks in a sense...we are trying to detach, but the wondering if we should make contact, the worrying, the rationalizing that now that this person is in certain location we can rest rather than being okay wherever their location may be, listening to family drama, rehashing conversations betweens people and the A...this is all indications that we are "abstaining" from codependency, but not necessarily in "recovering." With my program, I am learning.

I applaud the work you are doing, but like you said, it is work you did and choices you made. You weren't ready until you were ready...she didn't save your life, you did. We don't have that kind of power.

Hugs friend.

denny57

I think that's a huge leap from true love to killing him. I think people hang in there until they can't hang in anymore. If the addict goes on to die from their disease, it doesn't mean someone else has killed them.

bluejupiter, I wish him the best. Do you have a plan for you as to what you will do if he ends up on the street again?

bluejupiter

No... no plan. I won't have any contact with him or anything like that. I'll worry. I'll try not to worry. I'll go on with my life and hope for the best for him. I'll go to therapy (which is my plan anyway come the 1st of the year/new insurance). I'll try to detach further.

equinessa

Hi there, sounds like the tension has eased somewhat for you and this man's family.

I read your post and until then was not aware of how very different from Aust and Great Britain the public mental health system is in the US where it seems to be a predominately private system. That is very dangerous because the education of the population regarding Mental Health First Aid, mental health literacy, and development of support groups is stymied as a result.

I am not sure if there is a support group in the US called ARAFMI (Association of Relatives and Friends of the Mentally Ill). This group came into existence here because of the imbalance between human rights, the law, treatment centres (nicknamed "bins",) confidentiality, care and protection, and the community.

But since the 70's there has been a revolution in MH care (in Aust at least) as a direct result of the relatives and friends lodging applications to the human rights commission regarding the treatment centres and many of those issues. There has also been a development of the "mental health consumer forum" which is a client driven movement of people who have a mental illness. They have actively campaigned for the educational arm of health to educate the population (in particular law inforcement agencies, courts, and ED departments in hospitals) in mental health literacy and mental health first aid. With the onset of global warming and the deepening of the drought from 2004-2007 farmers were suiciding at a rate of 1 every 4 days, and alcohol consumption increased in direct proportion (ABS:2006). The demographics of the risk factors for suicidality were male aged 35-65, white caucasian, farmer. That rate has dropped because support networks specifically taylored to the needs of families and friends of those with a mental illness and for the mentally ill themselves. While AA and Al-anon have developed as fellowships/programs for those affected by alcoholism, there are limitations to understanding the complexity of co-morbidity/dual diagnosis of mental illness where there is a presence of DSM IV diagnostic criteria.

Here's an example: If someone with a bipolar defective disorder is grandiose in affect (demeanour, attitude), with plans of going to Italy, buying a baby grand piano and performing at the vatican and becomes irate when challenged on the feasibility of the idea...that is not them in their "self-centred addiction" trying to draw attention to themselves, it is a symptom of hypo-mania, as is pressured speech, irritability, insomnia, increased energy and euphoria. The state is followed some time (weeks) later with depression which is often the point at which suicide is contemplated. This state could easily be interpreted to someone who has no knowledge of the illness as......"now he feels sorry for himself, sits on the pity pot all day, lazy, emotionally unavailable, and completely self-absorbed, cranky, moody".

The point is that I don't think support groups are a one size fits all situation. AA and Al-anon is very successful in assisting those with alcohol related issues, but mental illness is best supported by groups with currency in mental health literacy.

denny57

A book I liked about mental illness here in the U.S. is "The Insanity Offense: How America's Failure to Treat the Seriously Mentally Ill Endangers Its Citizens" by Torrey

Another book I really enjoyed was "The Noonday Demon: An Atlas of Depression" by Solomon.

bluejupiter

There is a group here called NAMI - National Alliance on Mental Illness NAMI: National Alliance on Mental Illness
and they do a free 12 week course called Family to Family which teaches family members and loved ones about mental illness. NAMI | Family-to-Family
I intend to take the course. And go to Al-Anon. And some therapy. Jeez.
My XABF's parents are board members of NAMI. The mental health system here in the US is... available to those who need it, but its not really easy. if you have a lot of money and insurance and can afford private doctors and treatment then you're set, but sadly thats not the case here.
I guess I just don't know which is worse. What came first, the chicken or the egg. Addiction or Mental Illness. This has definitely been a learning experience. I was talking to my mom and she was saying how she cant believe the guy i sent her pictures of, the tall handsome strong redheaded blue eyed guy, the guy who had it all together and treated me like a queen, had disintegrated into... this. He's a gorgeous man, with a huge heart. But man. He lost it.

equinessa

In my post please read bipolar affective disorder, not bipolar defective disorders............jingos what a mistake, no offence intended!

bluejupiter

I noticed that... assumed it was a mistake ;-)

equinessa

There are countless research papers on this topic, particular in the last 5 yrs, and they make interesting reading. If you google CIAP and choose psychinfo you can read all day of that specific subject. It apears that the jury is still out on that one bluejupiter as it would be hard to prove given that subjects are not in a controlled environment pre diagnosis and there are a myriad of other variables exerting influence etc.

Re the books Denny57, the titles sound really interesting.

Tragically, it is an illness whose manifestations are behavioural therefore employers, colleagues, families, friends and the community see it as something the person has control over. The result is that they are terminated from employment, ostracised socially and stigmatised. In the US unemployment means that health insurance would become unaffordable leaving them vulnerable to homelessness and destitution unless supports are put in place whether by the state or through relatives and friends.

Just for the record Jupiter, there is not a lot of evidence, if any, to suggest that bipolar affective disorder is a sequelae of drug and/or alcohol abuse. It is more common for those (D&A) consumers to develop schizo-affective, schizopreniform, and transitory psychotic disorders particularly where there has been use/abuse of meth-amphetamine, (hydro)cannabis, and psychadelics (magic mushrooms etc). So I would suggest that the illness has come first and the your friend has self medicated in order to cope.

Best wishes Blue jupiter, sounds like you are setting a lot of much needed supports in place for yourself and that your friend has a well-informed and supportive family..............he's lucky in that respect as those who haven't lie down to sleep on our cold pavements at night by the thousands through no choice of their own.

I think there is a big difference between ignorance, cold indifference and healthy detachment and it is a very worthwhile discussion.

CAPTAINZING2000

Pray