Pajarito

nowinsituation- I sit in my al-anon meetings and feel so sad about a woman who is on her 3rd AH!!! I know it happens, but I cannot be in her shoes years from now or I will whither away to a fine crust! I am so driven to continue my work. . . but it is unbelievable how big it all seems at times. I loved your comment about throwing your H a rope. I did that over and over with mine. Why? Because of who I am- it's what makes me a GOOD person too. IMHO- Co-dependent behavior has it's roots in good behavior. It's what we women are taught to do from day 1- nurture. It's just co-dependent when it's nurturing at your expense. I love my AH- I wanted to be his partner- and to me that meant helping him in his trouble. Where it crossed the line is where I let it become bigger than anything else in my life. How to find the balance for the next time- or in any relationship for that matter??? Like you said- early on there was nothing that would have led me to believe we'd be here now. But- there were some things that looking at now I would never put up with in another intimate relationship.

I will look for that book- the title kills me!

hbb

I'm so confused still by this too!! Still!!! I guess for me, at the time i met J my picker was not off and this person was the one i was suppose to meet. My first reaction to this is how would anyone give/get a chance to be with someone if everyone thought their picker may be off without knowing how things will work out. BUT, i ignored alot of red flags so i guess that's where i should have walked and moved onto someone healthy and emotionally available to me. I'm hoping that my picker is on track a little better the next time around!

Paj ~ this is a great thread! Thanks for starting this one

CBrown

I was all ready to write a defensive post about how my picker was NOT at fault, and then I remembered my first "date" with my XABF back in 1997. He was 20 minutes late and when I went down to the hotel lobby he was drunk. "Here's your sign!" Then while I was in the restroom he disappeared to the bar again. He drank the better part of a bottle of wine later on in the room. "Here's your sign!" Then he stumped down the hallway to go home, and called me an hour later from the lobby saying his "car had been stolen and they wanted to know if he had somewhere to go." I suppose he'd gone to the bar after leaving me. "HERE'S YOUR SIGN!!!!"

And yet, it still never dawned on me that he had a drinking problem. True, I never knew 90% of his private life (the woman he was living with, the crazy lifestyle), but if I met a guy like him now I sure would be able to read the signs!!! I had never known an alcoholic before him, which is a pretty poor defense, but I was pretty doggone naive.

Yet, I am a wiser, stronger person because of the experience. I don't regret what I went through with him, any more than I regret my first marriage. Everything that happens is designed to make me learn valuable life lessons.

Now, could I please quit learning valuable life lessons?

SaTiT

oki doki Cbrown...are you sure you have the same DNA as me ???
Good lord...1997

Maybe my picker was broken
I was dating someone else at the time.
She even the same name :rof

mmm maybe my sign was, i asked that other person out.
I don't know...That's why i can't go back and retrace my
steps over every little things.
I'll go nuts with the what if..even in that arena.

My agf and my ex-wife asked me out.lol

Lilyflower

Unfortunately no, because that would make you perfect and none of us are by definition of being Human.

Pajarito

I feel the same way right now- so "effing" tired. How can I be divorcing a man I love? But the question for me right now is- Am I in love with him? My answer is no. <<<sigh>>>

I have a whole lot of work to do. I feel very broken- and not just my picker.

DetachMe9

OMG Paj. I know I need to start my own freaking thread, but I'll post here one more time. Promise I won't get weird and give you another round of Alanis lyrics or anything.

OK. Divorcing the man you love. This is the state of my personal union right now. Here we are, it's New Year's Day in lovely, freezing Kansas City and I'm in the excruciating process of dismantling the Christmas tree. The three of us are home together, slumming around in pajamas all tired and bloated from last night's junk food and chocolate debacle. Beautiful and talented 13 y/o son upstairs jamming away on his new Gibson Les Paul. AH sober (today) and downstairs in the basement watching some football game. I'm taking each ornament off the tree and recalling who gave/received it, what year, where we were living at the time, blah, blah, grief, sadness, kleenex galore. Eleven years of marriage hanging on a fake pine tree. Unfortunately placing them into two separate boxes this year because I filed for divorce last week, and we're never having Christmas together ever again and I cannot hardly BELIEVE IT'S HAPPENING AGAIN AND IT'S SO SAD.

The impossibility of reconciliation is everywhere: I pick up the handsome jacket I bought him last year, smell it (love that smell of him) and recall how great he still looks in it. Yet last week I found a f*^king condom in the pocket.

I clean up in the master bedroom where the cats have chased each other and knocked over the stack of recovery/AA books that were on his bedside table. Books he read from every day the first 5-6 years we were married, both happily working our respective 12-step programs together. Yet now he hasn't been to a meeting in almost 2 years and there's recent receipts from sports bars mixed in with the pile.

I walk into the kitchen to get some water at the sink, and he comes up behind me, hugging me, sober/crying. Says we don't have to do this you know, I'll try again, and we'll be great, you know we still love each other (true), please believe/try/reconsider. Yet this very scene has been played in the very same spot at least 25 times in the past few years with progressively worsening apologies, scenarios. His first slip in AA, his first relapse, his first affair, the second affair, the fabulous job he lost, the trip to Mexico ruined by him drunkenly assaulting some guy at the hotel next door, all the lies, arguments, lost friends, isolation.

So......my divorce will likely be as big of a dice-roll as marrying him was. I'm strong enough to leave this time; I wouldn't have had the guts to file if I weren't ready. I've got the best support of my life with friends, family, Al-Anon, here at SR. But I can see his grief and spite and my leaving motivating him to stay sober - - and my luck he probably will this time. He's finally losing everything, no empty ultimatums from me this time. But I can see something shifting in him, the old desire to do the next right thing, to stay on track, to walk vs. just talk. It'd be so much easier to leave if he'd just stay a mess, but he's not going to make it that easy. He'll show up at court looking like the day we met, damn him.

Tell me I'm going to make it through this with no regrets.

Growing

Detachme...Thank you so much for sharing this..This is the real deal..Just know that your experience is helping others...your post is so powerful.

Pajarito

DetachMe9- You are killing me. Your post is incredible. So much sadness. I hate alcoholism. It has taken so much from me- some I let happen, some absolutely out of my control. You describe your life in so much detail. I feel with you. I wish I could reach out and hug you. You are brave and sound tired, but don't you believe despite what is going on that your life has to get better with each day? Some days I feel strong- some I am a mess. I have the papers, but I keep avoiding them even though I know I have to do this. My AH is not sad or remorseful or anything emotionally- as far as I can tell- except bitter. Everything is my fault. I don't know, but I imagine it would be so much harder if he was crying and trying to reconcile. But- 17 years- and I get nothing! It blows me away. 2 emotional affairs- and maybe more than emotional too. Didn't I think when we got married that an affair would be a deal breaker? Is part of my sickness that I still love him? Do I love him- or the man I thought I married? I keep trying to look back and find the good times recently, but I'm having a hard time with that. I'm looking at times when we dated and our first few years of marriage. What should that be telling me?

I don't know my friend. My therapist told me she spent 3 years waiting for her exH to change before she finally got on with her life. She told me she divorced a man she loved. Does she regret it? No way. She married again- a wonderful man. Her ex is still in her life- they had kids- but she says he is screwed up. Do you/me- do we want to bet our lives on these men we thought we were marrying getting up and getting healthy? The only thing we can bet on is ourselves. What a horrid lesson! Someday I want to find comfort in myself without looking to others to provide that for me. For now I am mourning what I thought I would have in my life with this man- as I sense you are too. I am reading the al-anon book about transforming our losses- it is so good at explaining the grief we feel over this kind of loss. All I can offer you is friendship. I am right here with you.

peaceteach

Pajarito,
When I divorced my AH three years ago, I could NOT remember good times! I think it was my brain helping me to stay detached and save myself. Surely during 28 years I did have good times, right? But for the life of me, I did not remember those times, just the awful ones. I believe this carried me through the whole process and kept me from second-guessing myself too much. I also listened to that "inner voice" whenever I felt doubt in my decision. During my doubting times in the divorce years, I felt sick to my stomach thinking of getting back with him or whenever I was actually in a room with him. Again, I think it was "me" protecting me.

Pajarito

Thank you peaceteach, I actually feel that way too- anxious when I know he's coming over, anxious when we go to counseling- or in our interactions. Just not good. That should be telling me something too. I WANTED to feel good with him but I couldn't. I think it's my insanity- wanting him to fit into my dream of what I thought I should be getting. Thankfully my inner voice is not dead. She hates the emotional abuse, the verbal abuse, the chaos. I need to keep working on her.

peaceteach

My ex even bought me the diamond engagement ring he'd never given me during one attempt at reconciliation. I tried to believe him, really, plus that ring was gorgeous! But by the third day of wearing it, I was just sick and gave it back (well, actually, he demanded it back!). Another time I remember I was talking on the phone with my best friend about missing him one night, and she said, "Okay, can you picture him in your house right now?" and I realized, oh God, no. My friend still reminds me of that one!

I'm not making light of your anquish over this, but just that I understand doubt and "love" after so many years with a husband. Trust your gut-I believe it's your HP helping you to make the right decisions.

DetachMe9

Well, I think I'm in a slightly less dramatic place than I was earlier today. Jeez. Grief is such a necessary pain in the ass.

Thanks for letting me temporarily hijack your thread, purge my drama, and get some support all at the same time.

So, yes, I can certainly see life after "death" here sometimes. My ability to see it seems directly related to the tide of the grief process: When the tide's high, I'm a pathetic, victim-y, hopeless, ccrider-post-magnet. When it's low, I can envision a happy, strong, butt-kickin' version of myself. It's definitely harder when AH is sober, apologetic, remorseful, etc. But like I said, I've been through that cycle many times before with the same results.

The progression of his disease has been so incremental and slow, but nevertheless continues to creep along. I can see from posting here just since October that trying to detach from a "functional" AH may be more confusing/difficult than someone who's dealing with abject, late-stage horror (daily drinking, violence, multiple legal issues, etc.) That's not to say that my AH's drinking-driving-infidelity crap isn't it's own version of horror. It's just done with a nice suburban upscale feel covered in the veneer of a good-smelling suede jacket.

I/We're going to be just fine. As long as I keep working on having a SELF, asking for help, and keeping me on the top of my amends list - - I'm not likely to make the same choice again, broken "picker" or not.

Mr. Christian

I had my picker checked before and the Doc said it was fine. But with this last relationship I was just in, it makes me wonder…

LaTeeDa

Sorry to come in late. I have not been ignoring this thread, I have been out of town. Actually, I still am, but I have internet access so I can chime in.

This sentence above is the key point here, I think. I made a "bad" choice (for lack of a better word) because I did not know what I know now. I chose the wrong person for all the wrong reasons, not because I am stupid, or because I like to suffer, or because I am somehow a "bad" person. I made the best choice I could at the time, with all my issues that I didn't even realize were issues.

I now see that insecurity played into it. Being an ACOA played into it. Perfectionism played into it. The tendency to transform myself into whatever another person wanted played into it. People pleasing playing into it. And a million other things, some of which I am not even aware of yet, played into it.

I am grateful for making the "wrong" choice because it has led me to where I am. I guess the point I was making in the original post that you quoted, was that if I don't admit that the way things turned out had something to do with me and my beliefs, notions, preconceptions, etc. then I give up control of making a wiser choice in the future.

Some people keep on making one bad relationship choice after another. And then saying "why does this keep happening to me??" I don't want to be that person, so I say I chose the wrong person. Mostly to remind myself to make better choices in the future.

BTW, Happy New Year Pajarito!

L

Pajarito

Hi LTD- Glad to get your input. Your original post has really had me thinking. I like what you posted above- I have some of the same tendencies- especially the perfectionism- which I am working on. People pleasing- also a tendency. I'm the oldest in a family of 7, with an abusive dad who behaved like an alcoholic without the alcohol. I've been the caretaker for my entire life. I've gone to counseling for years to deal with my issues from childhood, but, with my AH leaving I think I began to really accelerate the process of rooting out the unhealthy tendencies I didn't even realize I had. I want to be able to make better choices in relationships or even casual friendships in the future. I know I'm not a bad person- that the choice I made 17 years ago was made by a woman who is vastly different from whom she is today. It's just a painful realization that this person I married is not at all what I thought- or had hoped he would be. I am finding that I had a vision of what I wanted from him that he was just not able to to give me- and I did too many things to try to make him fit nice and neatly into my vision. It wasn't fair to him or to me. That's not letting him off the hook. He made some really poor choices in our marriage that are not healthy. I put up with some of them, but I don't have that tolerance any more. I'm grateful to be where I am now- as painful as it is. And I am learning so much from people like you who are farther along in the process- thank you!- And Happy New Year to you too!

DetachMe9- I hope you are feeling better today!

Growing

"I did too many things to try to make him fit nice and neatly into my vision. It wasn't fair to him or to me"

I just wanted you wonderful people to know that this thread, and these posts, are helping me improve my relationships...today.

Thank You!

KMMK

Pajarito.
i can relate so much to what you wrote about being a person who is nurturing, and its my basic personality to be giving and kind..
yet , ,knowing that when it crosses a line it becomes unhealthy.
for the most part, i agree..that the roots of "codie" behavior is good...
just too much of a good thing at times...and not so good for ourselves when it crosses that line.
finding balance is what its all about.
i am still kind, loving, giving..but i am always careful to discern what and when i give those gifts away and to whom..and how needed it is..
I am careful not to have my good graces used, abused or taken advantage of..now that i am AWARE.
we cant change what we dont acknowledge.
awareness of my patterns of overgiving..over doing...pushing myself..even at my own expense was the first step to changing, resetting healthier boundaries for Me.

Pajarito

Good one anvilhead- broken sticker. I'm glad you finally got on with your life. Maybe I am loyal to a fault.

Something I found in a book on self esteem for women- maybe it should be a new thread but it fits here too:
. . . the desire to be in control of our lives is entirely human; it is hardly irrational. But it can lead to irrational behavior, when we are unconsciously manipulated by our self-destructive and self-sabotaging beliefs. To be "in control" means to understand the facts of reality that bear on our life so that we are able to predict, with reasonable accuracy, the consequences of our actions. Tragedy occurs when, out of a misguided notion of control, we attempt to "adjust" reality to our beliefs, rather than to adjust our beliefs to reality. Tragedy occurs when we cling to our beliefs blindly and manipulate events without awareness of doing so, insensitive to the fact that alternative possibilities exist. Tragedy occurs when we would rather be "right" than happy, when we would rather sustain the illusion that we are "in control" than notice that reality is not the way we have told ourselves it is.
-Women and Self-Esteem

This hits me right where it hurts- and has been my MO for years.