A question about alcoholism
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Location: Scottsdale, AZ, one big happy dysfunctional family!
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Originally Posted by embraced2000 
.....it seems simple to me....take away the alcohol, then the disease should go away, right? so why are so many such big arseholes when they get sober?
Just kiddin'!
I'm late as usual in catching up on this thread but it's been awesome to read the responses. Thanks NEG for giving me another look at my disease and the insanity. It's thoughts like these that keep me sober and more determined than ever to work on my recovery.
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,351
You mean it's not me for a change getting the feathers up on your backs??????LOL
I think take it or leave it...personally--I read everything that is here--wether I agree with it or not--keep an open mind everyone---we are here to help each other notto cut each other down--eve
r--
I enjoyed all the articles--and I myself believe that brain damage is a definate for any overuse of an addictive drug.
Having worked in a hospital where we would get acute alcoholics/herion addicts==Believe me I don't need to be a scientists to figure that one
out.
Some of us here I think--I am one of them ---are looking to dig a little deeper than others--just our nature--if you can't handle it--just move to the next posts---easy solution...
I think take it or leave it...personally--I read everything that is here--wether I agree with it or not--keep an open mind everyone---we are here to help each other notto cut each other down--eve
r--
I enjoyed all the articles--and I myself believe that brain damage is a definate for any overuse of an addictive drug.
Having worked in a hospital where we would get acute alcoholics/herion addicts==Believe me I don't need to be a scientists to figure that one
out.
Some of us here I think--I am one of them ---are looking to dig a little deeper than others--just our nature--if you can't handle it--just move to the next posts---easy solution...
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Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Canada
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Originally Posted by newenglandgirl
Is it possible that alcoholics don't necessarily have a specific problem with alcohol per se, but rather they are addicted to running away from themselves?
As a recovering drunk...I think this is quite clever....BUT I do know that from the time I began drinking...there was something incredbily abnormal about it. When I drank, there was a desire (tho not always achieved)..for oblivion. In younger years, my drinking was sporadic but ALWAYS to get drunk. There is something different about the way I process alcohol..I"m sure of that. From what I understand our the exchange process is different in the alcoholic's liver. We get higher, more euphoric from those first couple drinks..it hits our head faster, harder and higher..and we don't want to lose that high.
And Glass..I love ya...but I wasn't a depressed outcast before drinking alcohol...sure became one tho.
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Western NC
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For me I think I had the perfectionism, the feeling that I did not fit in, but was so shy that I could not cope in in a group. I was LD, dyslexic, LDL, LSD all those bad things. When the doctors told me all this it made me feel even worse about my self. Alcohol became an escape. The problems where always there, but I could muttle through the day knowing that I would have my good ole friend to comfort me at the end of the day. Just the other day I found my self feel very uncomfortable in my "home Group" I have nopt been there long, but I was feeling like " I did not belong" I just have a lot of problems that I have been hiding w/ alcohol, but now that it is gone I am going to have to work all these thigs out. Thanks for letting me share.
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Join Date: Feb 2007
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lostmdboy---thanks for that posts---seems it does become the best friend to lots of people--hard when you dont fit in or even if you feel you didnt....humankindness--not enough in this world--look what we do to each other-even as children..
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Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: FL
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Hi again,
I've been reading over the replies here and realized that my own reply was not worded as I meant it. My answer to the quote below was that it does stand alone and to clarify what I believe would be better described as saying I see it as a physiological disorder...not a mental disorder.
What was in my mind when I replied earlier was that alcoholism -does- affect the mental process, in relation to how they process alcohol and also how they think (my idea of 'mental') about it. Maybe the point is too subtle to even mention but I was not happy with how I communicated my thoughts.
Whenever it comes down to behavioral issues being 'mental' vs biological there are some gray areas and perhaps the two are more one than has been previously thought. Biochemical and genetic factors have a part as well and to call it a just a 'mental disorder' did not sit well with me. I hope that I have not offended anyone by my previous reply.
In my early years of attending Alanon and open AA meetings I was often turned off by the comments about having an allergy to alcohol...or comparing it to diabetes. As I have grown in my own recovery and studied a bit....I think those analagies are valid ways to describe how an alcoholic 'reacts' to alcohol. The bottom line is imo, if a person has this disease and they drink there's trouble.
I've been reading over the replies here and realized that my own reply was not worded as I meant it. My answer to the quote below was that it does stand alone and to clarify what I believe would be better described as saying I see it as a physiological disorder...not a mental disorder.
What was in my mind when I replied earlier was that alcoholism -does- affect the mental process, in relation to how they process alcohol and also how they think (my idea of 'mental') about it. Maybe the point is too subtle to even mention but I was not happy with how I communicated my thoughts.
So is alcoholism a mental disorder that stands alone, even without any consumption...or is the disease caused by the intake of alcohol?
In my early years of attending Alanon and open AA meetings I was often turned off by the comments about having an allergy to alcohol...or comparing it to diabetes. As I have grown in my own recovery and studied a bit....I think those analagies are valid ways to describe how an alcoholic 'reacts' to alcohol. The bottom line is imo, if a person has this disease and they drink there's trouble.
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Lost in NC
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"A disease of perception" is what a guy named Clancy states. You can listen to a good speach by him on Itunes . Clancy on Alcoholism. Its interesting to listen to.
I think alcoholism is like cancer. No one cause, different from individual to individual, a strong genetic component, environmental influence...... all play a role.
I think alcoholism is like cancer. No one cause, different from individual to individual, a strong genetic component, environmental influence...... all play a role.
A work in progress....
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: FREE!!!! Somewhere in the Tennessee Mountains
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Originally Posted by concolor1
What we find, though, in the "grave emotional and mental disorders" category with most addicts/alcoholics is their psychopathology more closely resembles "personality disorder" stuff than the Axis I stuff like bipolar or schizophrenia. The Axis II category includes disorders such as narcissism, histrionic and borderline, and anti-social PD . . .
I am trying to learn all I can about this so I just googled the terms, and several of the symptoms fit my AH. And he has had many of these characteristics for years, but he has also used various drugs and alcohol for years. It is these behaviors that have alienated him from friends and family, though, in spite of whether or not he is actively using any substances.
Thanks for taking the time to share all this information with a rookie!
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Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Utah
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Genetics?
Originally Posted by Sunflower
statistics have shown that a high number of alcoholics have underlying issues they have tried to self medicate away with the alcohol....depression-bi polar-anxiety disorders--even ADD that was never picked up on while they were in school.......and sometimes if they have been a user for a long priod of time--they have damaged their brains--I believe it is a disease we are predisposed to genetically.....
My wife has been out of Rehab now for two weeks. Still going to outpatient for 30 days during the day. I have searched for some clinical research data about this being genetic. My wife says she had no choice about her drinking b/c of this. I have not found scientific data to support this claim. Can you direct me to a report?
Thanks
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: anomaly
Posts: 2,180
I think information is good. it depends were
the information is coming from also. If reserchers
are getting kick back...they'll say and write anything.
I read a lot of medical books before i go clean and
sober. I found some informations very helpful. Never the
less i never got clean just becuase I was informed.
I think 99.99999% of addicts know that they're injecting
poison into thier system. I nevered needed the government's permission to use drugs. Surely I don't need the government's approval to stop either.
Yes..yes...uncle sam takes money from me without
a thank you note. Heck I even served for the old basture.
But people would bitch and complain if the government
wasn't involved too
Some would say that drinking alcohol every so often
is good for your heart......maybe ????
But I just chose not to drink today.
I have a chioce
the information is coming from also. If reserchers
are getting kick back...they'll say and write anything.
I read a lot of medical books before i go clean and
sober. I found some informations very helpful. Never the
less i never got clean just becuase I was informed.
I think 99.99999% of addicts know that they're injecting
poison into thier system. I nevered needed the government's permission to use drugs. Surely I don't need the government's approval to stop either.
Yes..yes...uncle sam takes money from me without
a thank you note. Heck I even served for the old basture.
But people would bitch and complain if the government
wasn't involved too
Some would say that drinking alcohol every so often
is good for your heart......maybe ????
But I just chose not to drink today.
I have a chioce
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Upper Kolobia
Posts: 153
A Bit on The Genetics Stuff . . .
Google up "Acetylaldehyde" along with THIQ and "isonquinalines" (THIQ is one of those), and that'll give you some search parameters to investigate along the genetic lines. This will give you the biology of the phenomenon of "craving."
The exact sequence of genetic events is still a bit murky, but as I understand it, one factor involved may be that alcoholics may not have something that "causes" alcholism, but may lack something that prevents it . . .
Elsewhere on this site there is also some excellent information in this area and others . . . Good luck, and your wife is telling you the truth when she said she "had" to have a drink. She probably tried to stop thousands of times of her own will and failed every time . . .
And a note to duet 4-8 who asked, "Are you saying that addicts have these problems without the drug use or because of it? Or is it a crapshoot that goes both ways?"
As I see it, the word "problems" is a bit loaded; what they have are some characteristics and behaviors that are exacerbated a hundred-fold when addictive disease sets in. Not all of these behaviors are "problems"; many with mild sociopathic tendencies make excellent salesmens, and actors often have a strong narcissistic streak (so do some CEO's) . . . That MD sister of mine who's working with meth-addicted women and giving them pre-natal care notes they usually began taking meth to enhance their coping skills and were often highly functional themselves until the drug took over their lives.
Then the drug seeking behaviors usually veer over into criminal activities . . . An interesting aspect of the personalities of these types is their "extreme codependency." They go for the "bad boys" every time (and should doubtless be referred to places like this at some point).
The exact sequence of genetic events is still a bit murky, but as I understand it, one factor involved may be that alcoholics may not have something that "causes" alcholism, but may lack something that prevents it . . .
Elsewhere on this site there is also some excellent information in this area and others . . . Good luck, and your wife is telling you the truth when she said she "had" to have a drink. She probably tried to stop thousands of times of her own will and failed every time . . .
And a note to duet 4-8 who asked, "Are you saying that addicts have these problems without the drug use or because of it? Or is it a crapshoot that goes both ways?"
As I see it, the word "problems" is a bit loaded; what they have are some characteristics and behaviors that are exacerbated a hundred-fold when addictive disease sets in. Not all of these behaviors are "problems"; many with mild sociopathic tendencies make excellent salesmens, and actors often have a strong narcissistic streak (so do some CEO's) . . . That MD sister of mine who's working with meth-addicted women and giving them pre-natal care notes they usually began taking meth to enhance their coping skills and were often highly functional themselves until the drug took over their lives.
Then the drug seeking behaviors usually veer over into criminal activities . . . An interesting aspect of the personalities of these types is their "extreme codependency." They go for the "bad boys" every time (and should doubtless be referred to places like this at some point).
A work in progress....
Join Date: Nov 2006
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Originally Posted by concolor1
many with mild sociopathic tendencies make excellent salesmens,
Thanks for the answer, concolor.
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Location: Pasadena, CA
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Because alcohol "treats" the disease.
Once the alcohol has been eliminated, alcoholics are the same people, now w/o any "treatment".
Alcoholics are restless, irritable, discontented people. Never satisfied.
Putting a plug in the jug is not the answer.
A whole new character needs to be built.
Once the alcohol has been eliminated, alcoholics are the same people, now w/o any "treatment".
Alcoholics are restless, irritable, discontented people. Never satisfied.
Putting a plug in the jug is not the answer.
A whole new character needs to be built.
Sunny Side Up
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Sth Australia
Posts: 3,802
Mmmmm interesting feedback. It is the hard question and what to believe.
Genetic. Maybe. My family history shows an alcoholic or two in every generation.
It does make me wonder but I do see that certain personalities are similar too. Codependency and no confidence in themselves. No one person can have the exact answer as all people are different. One similarity though throughout our family is that all alcoholics were dependent on other people most of the time.
Is it about our upbringing as children, Im not so sure. We both had exactly the same upbringing. Lived in the same house and I always thought my sister got more attention than me so figure it out hey....
I am actually the strong one so possibly personalities are the key to all of this. People who cant actually face whats going on. Maybe they dont have the skills to do it. Hiding behind the bottle seems easier than facing it. I do know that my sis finds it extremely difficult to say what she wants when she is sober. But when she is pissed watch out. Its poison......
My advise.... when they are pissed take in every word they say....this stuff is really how they feel. Take it in and respond... It may make the difference
Genetic. Maybe. My family history shows an alcoholic or two in every generation.
It does make me wonder but I do see that certain personalities are similar too. Codependency and no confidence in themselves. No one person can have the exact answer as all people are different. One similarity though throughout our family is that all alcoholics were dependent on other people most of the time.
Is it about our upbringing as children, Im not so sure. We both had exactly the same upbringing. Lived in the same house and I always thought my sister got more attention than me so figure it out hey....
I am actually the strong one so possibly personalities are the key to all of this. People who cant actually face whats going on. Maybe they dont have the skills to do it. Hiding behind the bottle seems easier than facing it. I do know that my sis finds it extremely difficult to say what she wants when she is sober. But when she is pissed watch out. Its poison......
My advise.... when they are pissed take in every word they say....this stuff is really how they feel. Take it in and respond... It may make the difference
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: mpl,mn
Posts: 43
What I think is sort of eye opening if you believe in the bible is that God plainly states that a drunkered will not be allowed in God's kingdom, but there is no mention of someone who has cancer, or heart disease, or a host of other diseases, being stopped at the gates, so from that vantage point it would seem as though drunkeness is not a disease but a choice, albeit many diseases can come about because of the abuse, the initial choice belongs to us.
We don't hear much about sin now days, but label it in different ways such as dysfunctional behavior, etc. maybe the behaviors that the alcohol masks are really sins that need to be repented of and changed with the help of a loving God, who has the ultimate strength and wisdom to help us over any obstacles that we might have.
unfortunately we choose to bankrupt ourselves and all around us, rather then to admit our need for a savior,
We don't hear much about sin now days, but label it in different ways such as dysfunctional behavior, etc. maybe the behaviors that the alcohol masks are really sins that need to be repented of and changed with the help of a loving God, who has the ultimate strength and wisdom to help us over any obstacles that we might have.
unfortunately we choose to bankrupt ourselves and all around us, rather then to admit our need for a savior,
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Join Date: May 2003
Location: Pasadena, CA
Posts: 1,539
Oh, AND:
Alcoholics tend to be pretty intelligent.
Often not allowing them to not get out of their own way. I'm not immune to this.
So, why is it so important to understand all this.
If we build a whole new character, are happy, serene & have inner peace, that's all I need......
Alcoholics tend to be pretty intelligent.
Often not allowing them to not get out of their own way. I'm not immune to this.
So, why is it so important to understand all this.
If we build a whole new character, are happy, serene & have inner peace, that's all I need......
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Originally Posted by 1_day@_a_time
Denny57, I've known Dr Drew for yrs. & heard him lecture at Las Encinas as well.
Perhaps our paths have crossed on the road to happy destiny!
Tom
Perhaps our paths have crossed on the road to happy destiny!
Tom
Sunny Side Up
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Sth Australia
Posts: 3,802
As a family member watching all of this madness, I think it is so important for some to at least 'try' and understand. Thats why we have this forum...and are here.
None of us know the answers. I truly do think that the person who has the addiction/disease? is the one who really only knows (what is really going on with them) at least.
I could write a book on what my sister has told me, why she thinks she does it etc etc but that would take too long.
Somehow I think it is many things, but the obvious is there. Is is learned behaviour. Habit. Its like telling me I have to change my ways and opinions and start thinking like someone else. (Pretty hard if you ask me)
None of us know the answers. I truly do think that the person who has the addiction/disease? is the one who really only knows (what is really going on with them) at least.
I could write a book on what my sister has told me, why she thinks she does it etc etc but that would take too long.
Somehow I think it is many things, but the obvious is there. Is is learned behaviour. Habit. Its like telling me I have to change my ways and opinions and start thinking like someone else. (Pretty hard if you ask me)
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