A question about alcoholism
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: over yonder
Posts: 1,548
How about "it is an allergy, just don't ever take not one sip"
We are told a rattle snake can kill, so we avoid.
So the cunning, baffeling powerful seems to fit, we don't beleave it is deadly even when we see it in others. Like a wet paint sign, we have to check it out.
Did we A's all have a death wish? Best we find that rattlesnake and get it over with before we try the alcohol and mess up everything and everybody.
I am really out of sorts on alcoholism. I keep trying to think how we can get to childern, so they will never mess with it. I cannot think of how to get the ball rolling on that. Alcohol companies are too powerful. Beer advertized at every sport.
What was the question??? sorry, newenglandgirl
We are told a rattle snake can kill, so we avoid.
So the cunning, baffeling powerful seems to fit, we don't beleave it is deadly even when we see it in others. Like a wet paint sign, we have to check it out.
Did we A's all have a death wish? Best we find that rattlesnake and get it over with before we try the alcohol and mess up everything and everybody.
I am really out of sorts on alcoholism. I keep trying to think how we can get to childern, so they will never mess with it. I cannot think of how to get the ball rolling on that. Alcohol companies are too powerful. Beer advertized at every sport.
What was the question??? sorry, newenglandgirl
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: By the sea
Posts: 415
The crazy thing is that alcoholism (as far as I know) is the only drug that is selectively addictive. You either are an alcoholic and can get addicted, or your not, and can't. Very unlike, let's say xanax or heroin, which hook the user regardless of who they are.
It's a tough one...how can we get to children? Well, for the majority of people on this earth, alcohol poses no problem (except for perhaps getting hit by a drunk driver)...so the question really is how do we get through to those people who are risk.
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Happily ever after...
Posts: 163
Interesting all of it, I do believe for some their is a co-existing condition. I have done alot of reading as my son has diagnosed autism. high functioning. I see many similarities between them. Just an observation.
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,351
I do believe there are cases of Doctors who over prescribe medications and quickly mis diagnose patients---that it why one must be careful to get a full exam and testing done for psych--and why one must continue to see a psych every 3 months year round even once stabilized . Money makes the world go round and it is no different in the medical field---so when I mention psych disorders and A's one must take seriously all the time and effort that must be put into a diagnosis-as well as second and 3rd opinions with ongoing treaatment. My son is bi polar--and that diagnosis has saved his life---it is not something to be ahamed of-and I thank God they have the medication now to treat this-with little side effects..If he is able to remain sober---which is easier now because he is recieving meds for the bi polar---he will have a completely normal life-and no one will know the difference.He no longer needs to self medicate with alcohol---call it a cop out if you want--I have seen the transformation with my own eyes.....
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,826
Hi NewEnglandGirl,
It's 3 fold disease
Emotional
Spiritual
Physical
The alcohol is but a symptom of the disease.
Taking away the alcohol deals with the physical, but the damaged emotional and spiritual sides of the A are still there and they need to be treated too. If left untreated the A will be a "dry drunk" and has a high risk of going back drinking.
Some A's drink to relieve emotional pain, if the pain is not worked through with counselling, meetings it still remains.
Alcoholism is considered to be a mental illness, and it's alcoholISM not alcoholWASM.
Hope this helps
Earthworm
It's 3 fold disease
Emotional
Spiritual
Physical
The alcohol is but a symptom of the disease.
Taking away the alcohol deals with the physical, but the damaged emotional and spiritual sides of the A are still there and they need to be treated too. If left untreated the A will be a "dry drunk" and has a high risk of going back drinking.
Some A's drink to relieve emotional pain, if the pain is not worked through with counselling, meetings it still remains.
Alcoholism is considered to be a mental illness, and it's alcoholISM not alcoholWASM.
Hope this helps
Earthworm
Originally Posted by newenglandgirl 
Hi everyone.
I have a question for you all...
If alcoholism is a disease that has to do with the substance of alcohol...why is it that there is often still a problem even when the alcoholic stops drinking?
Why isn't there a formal name for this condition that is so often described?
If you read "Under the Influence", it talks about how alcoholics are different than non-alcoholics in that their brains/bodies react differently to alcohol...yet, according to what I've read here at SR, alcoholics often have a certain mental sickness that continues even after quitting drinking ("dry drunk" syndrome, etc.).
So is alcoholism a mental disorder that stands alone, even without any consumption...or is the disease caused by the intake of alcohol?
I hope I'm making my question clear! thanks.
I have a question for you all...
If alcoholism is a disease that has to do with the substance of alcohol...why is it that there is often still a problem even when the alcoholic stops drinking?
Why isn't there a formal name for this condition that is so often described?
If you read "Under the Influence", it talks about how alcoholics are different than non-alcoholics in that their brains/bodies react differently to alcohol...yet, according to what I've read here at SR, alcoholics often have a certain mental sickness that continues even after quitting drinking ("dry drunk" syndrome, etc.).
So is alcoholism a mental disorder that stands alone, even without any consumption...or is the disease caused by the intake of alcohol?
I hope I'm making my question clear!
thanks.Guest
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,826
Concolour,
Newenglandgirl threw out a question that we all have asked at some point.
Earthworm
Newenglandgirl threw out a question that we all have asked at some point.
Earthworm
Originally Posted by concolor1
Particularly the shills for the pharmacy companies who insist that the alcoholic has underlying psychiatric and emotional problems and if we can just find the right pills, we can medicate them into normalcy . . .
For bi-polar or schizophrenic conditions, fine--although the prognosis is likely to be grim--and the research on anti-depressants indicates they have their place because neuro-transmitters have been depleted during the course of the disease and their structures disrupted . . . My experience is those individuals are a very small minority of those who seek treatment, but are over-diagnosed in the treatment community because it's easier to write a script than engage in some confrontive, cowboy-type therapy . . .
It's also cheaper to give them pills than provide a safe therapeutic environment where they can heal at the pace they require . . .
As for statements like, "addicts/alcoholics have underlying emotional, personality and/or behavior issues that they used drugs/alcohol to deal with," that's one of the most unenlightened assessments I've ever heard, and it isn't supported by the literature or the science.
Not that the untreated ACOA's aren't persistently reinventing this particularly wheel and blinded by the perceptual disorders that accompany their condition (is someone going to suggest their stuff is 'normal' and not part of "underlying emotional and behavioral issues"; the characteristics of these types have been repeated documented, and are far more predictable and are likely as problematic as the sober symptoms of alcoholism). It gives them a marvelous excuse not to look at their own role in matters and allows them to focus on the "identified patient." Alas, I sat in on too many family therapy sessions to let that one slide by my BS detector . . .
From a speech I heard from Clancy I. given over 20 years ago: "If your problem is alcohol, the solution is simple. Stop drinking. If your problem is alcoholism, stopping drinking will have no effect on your problem except to make it worse by making reality more painful."
Similarly, in a "Grapevine" article, Clancy also notes, "The sober curse of alcholism is the loss of emotional tolerance for reality."
In the disease itself, there are well-documented and well-understood denial patterns that are adopted as survival mechanisms by that individual when addictive disease develops.
These diseases "mitigate" the emotional responses to an invidual's actions just as ordinary folks' rationalizations mitigate their reaction to ordinary events . . . From Psych 101 . . .
Husband: "You burned the roast."
Wife: "That's because your mother called."
Note the avoidance pattern . . . Not "I forgot because . . ."
As for that ACOA/codependency stuff I was talking about, a friend who's also a former treatment pro said he picked up on that one when he interviewed the significant other of an alcoholic he was counseling and asked, "So how are you doing?"
"I'm fine," was the reply, even though she had been through a series of particularly traumatic crises. My friend said he realized from her "reality" that she really was doing fine in a situation that would have sent ordinary folks reaching for the pill bottle or a gun or a razor blade . . . The cognitive operations and defenses were operating at their peak survival optimum . . .
Okay, rant almost over. Recovery for an alcoholic involves the shattering of the maladaptive defenses adopted in the early course of the disease. Treatment often involves "exorcising" the remnants as well, and providing information and socialization to rebuild more appropriate defenses.
In the meantime, the individual is vulnerable; the sensitivity and adolescent "regression" posturing noted earlier are readily apparent . . .
Add to this alcohol's effect on the neurotransmitter pathways involving both norepinephrine and dopamine--which are raised to a high state of "arousal" during withdrawal, and the picture becomes complete.
It's a disease folks, and I'm not going to stand quietly by while this stuff is used as a club--albeit a sophisticated one--to use on affected individual; the mantra of codependent recovery programs is "put the focus on ourselves," and I see this thread as doing anything but . . .
Probably time to bring in the awful word "motives" again . . . My guess is that people putting this stuff out won't care to have theirs examined . . .
Some excellent works on this subject include those of Vernon Johnson, founder of the Johnson Institute, and early inerventions service, John Bradshaw, Melody Beattie, Rokelle Learner, and others who've pioneered the dysfunctional family/codepency movement, Patricks Carnes and Charlotte Davis Kasl for their work on sexual addictions, and Dr. Drew Pinsky, an addictionologist who regularly appears on a number of cable TV shows.
For bi-polar or schizophrenic conditions, fine--although the prognosis is likely to be grim--and the research on anti-depressants indicates they have their place because neuro-transmitters have been depleted during the course of the disease and their structures disrupted . . . My experience is those individuals are a very small minority of those who seek treatment, but are over-diagnosed in the treatment community because it's easier to write a script than engage in some confrontive, cowboy-type therapy . . .
It's also cheaper to give them pills than provide a safe therapeutic environment where they can heal at the pace they require . . .
As for statements like, "addicts/alcoholics have underlying emotional, personality and/or behavior issues that they used drugs/alcohol to deal with," that's one of the most unenlightened assessments I've ever heard, and it isn't supported by the literature or the science.
Not that the untreated ACOA's aren't persistently reinventing this particularly wheel and blinded by the perceptual disorders that accompany their condition (is someone going to suggest their stuff is 'normal' and not part of "underlying emotional and behavioral issues"; the characteristics of these types have been repeated documented, and are far more predictable and are likely as problematic as the sober symptoms of alcoholism). It gives them a marvelous excuse not to look at their own role in matters and allows them to focus on the "identified patient." Alas, I sat in on too many family therapy sessions to let that one slide by my BS detector . . .
From a speech I heard from Clancy I. given over 20 years ago: "If your problem is alcohol, the solution is simple. Stop drinking. If your problem is alcoholism, stopping drinking will have no effect on your problem except to make it worse by making reality more painful."
Similarly, in a "Grapevine" article, Clancy also notes, "The sober curse of alcholism is the loss of emotional tolerance for reality."
In the disease itself, there are well-documented and well-understood denial patterns that are adopted as survival mechanisms by that individual when addictive disease develops.
These diseases "mitigate" the emotional responses to an invidual's actions just as ordinary folks' rationalizations mitigate their reaction to ordinary events . . . From Psych 101 . . .
Husband: "You burned the roast."
Wife: "That's because your mother called."
Note the avoidance pattern . . . Not "I forgot because . . ."
As for that ACOA/codependency stuff I was talking about, a friend who's also a former treatment pro said he picked up on that one when he interviewed the significant other of an alcoholic he was counseling and asked, "So how are you doing?"
"I'm fine," was the reply, even though she had been through a series of particularly traumatic crises. My friend said he realized from her "reality" that she really was doing fine in a situation that would have sent ordinary folks reaching for the pill bottle or a gun or a razor blade . . . The cognitive operations and defenses were operating at their peak survival optimum . . .
Okay, rant almost over. Recovery for an alcoholic involves the shattering of the maladaptive defenses adopted in the early course of the disease. Treatment often involves "exorcising" the remnants as well, and providing information and socialization to rebuild more appropriate defenses.
In the meantime, the individual is vulnerable; the sensitivity and adolescent "regression" posturing noted earlier are readily apparent . . .
Add to this alcohol's effect on the neurotransmitter pathways involving both norepinephrine and dopamine--which are raised to a high state of "arousal" during withdrawal, and the picture becomes complete.
It's a disease folks, and I'm not going to stand quietly by while this stuff is used as a club--albeit a sophisticated one--to use on affected individual; the mantra of codependent recovery programs is "put the focus on ourselves," and I see this thread as doing anything but . . .
Probably time to bring in the awful word "motives" again . . . My guess is that people putting this stuff out won't care to have theirs examined . . .
Some excellent works on this subject include those of Vernon Johnson, founder of the Johnson Institute, and early inerventions service, John Bradshaw, Melody Beattie, Rokelle Learner, and others who've pioneered the dysfunctional family/codepency movement, Patricks Carnes and Charlotte Davis Kasl for their work on sexual addictions, and Dr. Drew Pinsky, an addictionologist who regularly appears on a number of cable TV shows.
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Upper Kolobia
Posts: 153
It's Incorrect That Alcohol is The Only . . .
"Selectively addictive" drug. Certainly marijuana falls into this category--Google up Dr. Drew on the subject, and he accurately describes exactly what it "feels like" when one becomes a habituated daily marijuana smoker (I speak from experience from that one; pot was my first "drug of choice").
Many people use it socially, however, with little or no impact on their lives . . .
Similarly, back in the 70's, there was a high incidence of heroin usage among U.S. veterans who'd served in Vietnam . . . Upon returning stateside, many simply stopped without adverse withdrawal . . .
It's the nature of addictive disease, however, that when one develops an addiction to one substance, the use of any mind-altering/mood-changing chemcial becomes problematic. One will either develop a new addiction or revert to the former drug-of-choice . . . As an old friend of mine noted--he retired not long ago as head of a nationally recognized treatment and education program--those who were addicted to heroin and stopped typically became "instant alcoholics."
The nature of drug use, particularly "illegal" drugs, is such that self-deception about the addiction is much more difficult to maintain, probably because of socialization factors. Dr. Pinksy pointed out that an individual who becomes addicted to marijuana recognizes fairly early on that the dependency has become out of control and being loaded all the time is impairing his or her coping skills.
The drug with probably the highest "addiction potential" is likely crack cocaine (with oxycontin also particularly problematic); I did research on cocaine addiction in the late 80's--before crack was widely available--and it was particularly terrifying (I used cocaine less than a dozen times in my "using days," probably strictly because of economics, but crack is cheap and widespread nowadays). The treatment program I was working for found that a combination of trycylic anti-depressants and an amino acid, L-tryptophan, greatly reduced the incidence of addicts leaving treatment prematurely . . . The U.S. Food and Drug administration, however, outlawed tryptophan for reasons that aren't entirely clear to me although a quick Google noted that there were a number of reported deaths from its use, and it has also been available on the market again since 2002.
I don't have any current affilations with treatment programs, so I don't know if its usage is being tried, although I suspect liability issues are paramount.
My youngest sister is an MD who teaches college at a major university, and she's developed a program for obstetric care for meth-addicted mothers. When time permits, I'll e-mail her for a comprehensive review of the literature on that subject. "Ice" or "crank" is another "jewel" that is easily made, and initially, users find it raises their performance levels and coping skills, only to turn on them with a vengeance.
Posting information like this is, for me, strictly an avocation at this point, however, and I'm likely to stick strictly to correcting misinformation. I'm far more interested in history, politics, and environmental issues . . .
I consider that Exhibit A in defense of the progress I've made in recovery . . .
Many people use it socially, however, with little or no impact on their lives . . .
Similarly, back in the 70's, there was a high incidence of heroin usage among U.S. veterans who'd served in Vietnam . . . Upon returning stateside, many simply stopped without adverse withdrawal . . .
It's the nature of addictive disease, however, that when one develops an addiction to one substance, the use of any mind-altering/mood-changing chemcial becomes problematic. One will either develop a new addiction or revert to the former drug-of-choice . . . As an old friend of mine noted--he retired not long ago as head of a nationally recognized treatment and education program--those who were addicted to heroin and stopped typically became "instant alcoholics."
The nature of drug use, particularly "illegal" drugs, is such that self-deception about the addiction is much more difficult to maintain, probably because of socialization factors. Dr. Pinksy pointed out that an individual who becomes addicted to marijuana recognizes fairly early on that the dependency has become out of control and being loaded all the time is impairing his or her coping skills.
The drug with probably the highest "addiction potential" is likely crack cocaine (with oxycontin also particularly problematic); I did research on cocaine addiction in the late 80's--before crack was widely available--and it was particularly terrifying (I used cocaine less than a dozen times in my "using days," probably strictly because of economics, but crack is cheap and widespread nowadays). The treatment program I was working for found that a combination of trycylic anti-depressants and an amino acid, L-tryptophan, greatly reduced the incidence of addicts leaving treatment prematurely . . . The U.S. Food and Drug administration, however, outlawed tryptophan for reasons that aren't entirely clear to me although a quick Google noted that there were a number of reported deaths from its use, and it has also been available on the market again since 2002.
I don't have any current affilations with treatment programs, so I don't know if its usage is being tried, although I suspect liability issues are paramount.
My youngest sister is an MD who teaches college at a major university, and she's developed a program for obstetric care for meth-addicted mothers. When time permits, I'll e-mail her for a comprehensive review of the literature on that subject. "Ice" or "crank" is another "jewel" that is easily made, and initially, users find it raises their performance levels and coping skills, only to turn on them with a vengeance.
Posting information like this is, for me, strictly an avocation at this point, however, and I'm likely to stick strictly to correcting misinformation. I'm far more interested in history, politics, and environmental issues . . .
I consider that Exhibit A in defense of the progress I've made in recovery . . .
Acting not reacting
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: My happy place
Posts: 1,788
While all very interesting and educational, concolor, You are coming off..
I'm not certain this is really a black and white issue to me and while I can speak not for others, I try to remember that people who are hurting come here and sometimes want to discuss thier feelings and get ESH of others....when I was living with an alcoholic, I got plenty of know-it-all-ism at home, I wasnt looking for a scientific diatribe here.
Of course, take what you like..............
just a tad judgemental and self-righteous
Of course, take what you like..............
Member
Join Date: May 2004
Location: over yonder
Posts: 1,548
concolor, My opinion is, some of us woud find your posts very interesting, I did.
Others can skip. We can always skip a thread or skip reading a reply.
We share ESH, this would fall under experiance as you used.
This was a question about alcoholism, not what should I do?, can I help him,? can I get well , can he get well etc. Just a different topic.
Please keep coming back.
elizabeth, I hated to disagree with you, you are right, but we have many kinds on here. I am always glad to see you and read your replys, so keep coming back.
HUGS to you both
Others can skip. We can always skip a thread or skip reading a reply.
We share ESH, this would fall under experiance as you used.
This was a question about alcoholism, not what should I do?, can I help him,? can I get well , can he get well etc. Just a different topic.
Please keep coming back.
elizabeth, I hated to disagree with you, you are right, but we have many kinds on here. I am always glad to see you and read your replys, so keep coming back.
HUGS to you both
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 5,075
Originally Posted by concolor1
Posting information like this is, for me, strictly an avocation at this point, however, and I'm likely to stick strictly to correcting misinformation. I'm far more interested in history, politics, and environmental issues . . .
Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Upper Kolobia
Posts: 153
Hmmm . . .
Elizabeth1979 addressed me, saying I was coming off. . .
"Just a tad judgemental and self-righteous . . . "
Backatcha . . . You mean you're not? You gonna shoot the messenger or listen to the message?
They've got steps to help you let go of those resentments so you quit projecting them on others . . .
Boyhowdy, when I was in treatment, anyone who tried a shot like that would've been introduced to the concept when one finger is pointing at others, three are pointing back . . .
Way I heard this is it's Toughlove 101 . . . In no way have I sought to invalidate the anger behind the action, only to expose it to the light of reason . . . My theme is that viewing the alcoholic as some sort of headcase is an effective way to stay stuck in that anger . . . Okay if that's your choice, but my experience is there's a better way . . .
Thanks, Zoey . . . BTW, this isn't my first rodeo, and that pr--- of a mentor of mine had some particularly wicked metaphors to deal with this stuff; if I start reaching into my toolbox for them, though, then I would be stepping over the line . . .
Okay, Socalgal, whatcha laughing at? I'm enough of an old fart to appreciate a laugh, even if it's at my expense . . .
"Just a tad judgemental and self-righteous . . . "
Backatcha . . . You mean you're not? You gonna shoot the messenger or listen to the message?
They've got steps to help you let go of those resentments so you quit projecting them on others . . .
Boyhowdy, when I was in treatment, anyone who tried a shot like that would've been introduced to the concept when one finger is pointing at others, three are pointing back . . .
Way I heard this is it's Toughlove 101 . . . In no way have I sought to invalidate the anger behind the action, only to expose it to the light of reason . . . My theme is that viewing the alcoholic as some sort of headcase is an effective way to stay stuck in that anger . . . Okay if that's your choice, but my experience is there's a better way . . .
Thanks, Zoey . . . BTW, this isn't my first rodeo, and that pr--- of a mentor of mine had some particularly wicked metaphors to deal with this stuff; if I start reaching into my toolbox for them, though, then I would be stepping over the line . . .
Okay, Socalgal, whatcha laughing at? I'm enough of an old fart to appreciate a laugh, even if it's at my expense . . .
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Pasadena,Ca
Posts: 147
Oh, concolor,
This is one of those threads where I have so much to say that I decided not to say anything all. Biting my tongue, so to speak.
Laughing at the exchange, Con, not at you. I am going to try a little harder to stay out of it!
-K
This is one of those threads where I have so much to say that I decided not to say anything all. Biting my tongue, so to speak.
Laughing at the exchange, Con, not at you. I am going to try a little harder to stay out of it!
-K
Wipe your paws elsewhere!
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 3,672
"You gonna shoot the messenger or listen to the message?"
I think you have plenty of information, knowledge, experience, strength, and hope to offer but at one point, just for a brief second, you came across as a bit critical of those who struggle with co-dependency. At least it seemed so to me when I read your post. But you didn't ruffle my feathers enough for me to respond. Just gave me pause to think.
And since you do have much to offer may I suggest that folks tend to listen more readily to a message when it's presented in a way that appears to be free of criticism. I'm willing to listen with an open mind, but it's amazing how quickly I become closed minded when criticism enters the picture. At that point, I tend to focus on trying to defend my position or simply on planning my reply. I'm not a world-class multi-tasker, so something has to give. In this case, it would be my listening skills.
Let's face it, we all have our own opinions and it takes work to keep an open mind and process all the information and views offered. This thread is filled with valuable information and feedback. Can we get back to the business at hand and not let it veer off into a less helpful direction?
I think you have plenty of information, knowledge, experience, strength, and hope to offer but at one point, just for a brief second, you came across as a bit critical of those who struggle with co-dependency. At least it seemed so to me when I read your post. But you didn't ruffle my feathers enough for me to respond. Just gave me pause to think.
And since you do have much to offer may I suggest that folks tend to listen more readily to a message when it's presented in a way that appears to be free of criticism. I'm willing to listen with an open mind, but it's amazing how quickly I become closed minded when criticism enters the picture. At that point, I tend to focus on trying to defend my position or simply on planning my reply. I'm not a world-class multi-tasker, so something has to give. In this case, it would be my listening skills.
Let's face it, we all have our own opinions and it takes work to keep an open mind and process all the information and views offered. This thread is filled with valuable information and feedback. Can we get back to the business at hand and not let it veer off into a less helpful direction?
A work in progress....
Join Date: Nov 2006
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Posts: 1,018
OK, I'll jump in now; been following this thread without saying anything but here goes.
concolor, I was the one that made that original statement, and I feel like your interpretation of it was just basically rude and hurtful. I don't have any professional training in the addiction field, nor did I say that I did. I never claimed to be 'enlightened'. I said that I had no medical/psychological knowledge and was only offering an opinion (and a perhaps feeble interpretation from one who has lived with an addict for 25 years and is trying to dig her way out of the madness).
I don't know why it upset me, but that comment stayed on my mind for quite awhile yesterday. I guess I am just still ragged and raw from a recent seperation and everything that goes along with that.
I think that you seem to be a very intelligent person and know a lot about this subject that would be helpful for all concerned, but maybe it would be a good idea to temper your remarks with just a little compassion?
Originally Posted by concolor1
As for statements like, "addicts/alcoholics have underlying emotional, personality and/or behavior issues that they used drugs/alcohol to deal with," that's one of the most unenlightened assessments I've ever heard.
I don't know why it upset me, but that comment stayed on my mind for quite awhile yesterday. I guess I am just still ragged and raw from a recent seperation and everything that goes along with that.
I think that you seem to be a very intelligent person and know a lot about this subject that would be helpful for all concerned, but maybe it would be a good idea to temper your remarks with just a little compassion?
Last edited by duet_4-8; 03-26-2007 at 03:13 PM.
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: midwest
Posts: 231
Hi Guys,
From everything I have read and learned in classes etc...
a small percentage do have mental issues before becoming alcoholics, that being said the majority of the problems come after the alcoholism.
That is what I was taught as fact, even though the majority of people not knowing anything about alcoholism would think it was the other way around.
thanks all for being here and sharing !!
(((((((((((((((hugs))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
From everything I have read and learned in classes etc...
a small percentage do have mental issues before becoming alcoholics, that being said the majority of the problems come after the alcoholism.
That is what I was taught as fact, even though the majority of people not knowing anything about alcoholism would think it was the other way around.
thanks all for being here and sharing !!
(((((((((((((((hugs))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Member
Join Date: May 2004
Location: In Search of Finding ME!
Posts: 1,246
You all know that you can take what you like and leave the rest. Just as you can do with my reply as well.
Back to the original question....
I believe that drinking alters the mind and can cause some major brain damage. There was a post on this forum quite some time ago with some scientific studies that had been done and the results of those studies. It was very interesting and very informative.
It's also believed that drinking stunts the maturity growth of the active A. Therefore - I believe that when an A becomes sober - they are at a lower maturity level as well as having had damage done to their brains as well as other organs of the body.
On top of that - I imagine that life sober is like entering into the twilight zone for someone that has numbed themselves through life. They probably find it overwhelming as well as scary and very confusing.
All of the above - as well as many other factors (childhood, possible mental issues, denial of many things, etc) - really just factor into the whole idea that I have of why an A can not just "snap out of it" and become "normal" when the alcohol is taken away.
As for this question you posed:
So is alcoholism a mental disorder that stands alone, even without any consumption...or is the disease caused by the intake of alcohol?
I believe that alcoholism can be brought about my mental disorders - but I also believe that it can cause mental disorders. I believe that some people just start out drinking as a past time, or a teenage wanna-fit-in-and-be-cool type of thing - I don't believe that all alcoholics start out drinking because they have a mental disorder.
So nope, I don't believe that alcoholism is a mental disorder that stands alone without consumption - but I do believe that the disease is caused by the intake of alcohol.
There are those that have mental disorders that aren't alcoholic.
Just my thoughts - take them or leave them.
Back to the original question....
I believe that drinking alters the mind and can cause some major brain damage. There was a post on this forum quite some time ago with some scientific studies that had been done and the results of those studies. It was very interesting and very informative.
It's also believed that drinking stunts the maturity growth of the active A. Therefore - I believe that when an A becomes sober - they are at a lower maturity level as well as having had damage done to their brains as well as other organs of the body.
On top of that - I imagine that life sober is like entering into the twilight zone for someone that has numbed themselves through life. They probably find it overwhelming as well as scary and very confusing.
All of the above - as well as many other factors (childhood, possible mental issues, denial of many things, etc) - really just factor into the whole idea that I have of why an A can not just "snap out of it" and become "normal" when the alcohol is taken away.
As for this question you posed:
So is alcoholism a mental disorder that stands alone, even without any consumption...or is the disease caused by the intake of alcohol?
I believe that alcoholism can be brought about my mental disorders - but I also believe that it can cause mental disorders. I believe that some people just start out drinking as a past time, or a teenage wanna-fit-in-and-be-cool type of thing - I don't believe that all alcoholics start out drinking because they have a mental disorder.
So nope, I don't believe that alcoholism is a mental disorder that stands alone without consumption - but I do believe that the disease is caused by the intake of alcohol.
There are those that have mental disorders that aren't alcoholic.
Just my thoughts - take them or leave them.
Originally Posted by newenglandgirl
Hi everyone.
I have a question for you all...
If alcoholism is a disease that has to do with the substance of alcohol...why is it that there is often still a problem even when the alcoholic stops drinking?
Why isn't there a formal name for this condition that is so often described?
If you read "Under the Influence", it talks about how alcoholics are different than non-alcoholics in that their brains/bodies react differently to alcohol...yet, according to what I've read here at SR, alcoholics often have a certain mental sickness that continues even after quitting drinking ("dry drunk" syndrome, etc.).
So is alcoholism a mental disorder that stands alone, even without any consumption...or is the disease caused by the intake of alcohol?
I hope I'm making my question clear! thanks.
I have a question for you all...
If alcoholism is a disease that has to do with the substance of alcohol...why is it that there is often still a problem even when the alcoholic stops drinking?
Why isn't there a formal name for this condition that is so often described?
If you read "Under the Influence", it talks about how alcoholics are different than non-alcoholics in that their brains/bodies react differently to alcohol...yet, according to what I've read here at SR, alcoholics often have a certain mental sickness that continues even after quitting drinking ("dry drunk" syndrome, etc.).
So is alcoholism a mental disorder that stands alone, even without any consumption...or is the disease caused by the intake of alcohol?
I hope I'm making my question clear!
thanks.Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Upper Kolobia
Posts: 153
About That Mental Disorders Stuff . . .
As one whose first MMPI came back "psychotic or pre-psychotic" there's no question alcoholism does big time damage to the psyche (and that was after only eight years of drinking, folks, and there was no measurable brain damage).
What we find though, is the the scales come way down after a reasonable period of sobriety (Terry Gorski puts the timetable for "full recovery" at around nine years minimum). AA and other support groups provide a structured environment of mutually supportive individuals that is very powerful for those who avail themselves of it. The statement is "AA has a wrench for every nut who walks through the door," and it's fairly accurate. Probably a big factor in AA's effectiveness in addition to the empathy provided is there is less enabling since very few have a lot of money . . . Even as a person is told to place his or her life and faith in a Higher Power, they are placed in a position where they have to take action that will help them develop as autonomous individuals who must ultimately bear responsibility for their own lives and recovery . . .
That's a terrible truth we codependents must face (My God! They don't need us!), but it's for our own greater good as well . . .
Honest, folks, I've had no psychotic episodes (and no meds) for over 20 years, and what triggered that last one was mega-stress--including a death in my immediate family--and the final bust-up of the codie/alkie relationship that I'd tried alternately to either hang on to or extricate myself from (every time I left her, she'd come running after me; so I stopped and said okay, let's go get some help working things out, and she self-destructed about a year later). I gained a bit of insight from that experience on the wisdom of not eating or sleeping for a couple of days (a week in a hospital with a broken leg has that effect).
So you all try to be good to yourself, you hear? Works better that way . . .
What we find, though, in the "grave emotional and mental disorders" category with most addicts/alcoholics is their psychopathology more closely resembles "personality disorder" stuff than the Axis I stuff like bipolar or schizophrenia. The Axis II category includes disorders such as narcissism, histrionic and borderline, and anti-social PD . . .
Does it look "crazy" to the uninitiated? Absolutely. It's kind of a given that reasonably sane people don't react well to insanity . . . I do get a little sensitive on that one, however, having two bi-polar siblings, and so I find this psychological distinction--which may appear as hairsplitting to many--gives me some comfort . . .
BTW, we find many of these "personality disorder" characteristics operating in codependency as well. Timmen Cermak, who's written many seminal works on this subject, notes--rightly I think--that it's most useful to explore the factors that create the "addiction to people" that is the hallmark of our affliction. There is a "chemistry" with toxic sorts that draws us irresistably to the spiked bamboo trap that lies below . . .
That statement by him was a milestone on my own particular journey, which enabled me--while attending a lot of Al-Anon and working with a particularly skilled and sensitive therapist--to pinpoint my own "shame-based" wound that was causing me so much grief. I was able (using the 12-Steps at first to identify it, although I'd missed it in five reasonably responsible inventories) to revisit the event in a therapeutic regression and "exorcise" that particular demon.
My therapist referred to it as an "entitlement" issue, and I agree at this point; I was unconsciously looking for something external to fix something that was internally broken way deep within . . .
Did this "cure" me. Nope . . . I got "creamed" again a few years later (that was 15 years ago), but my own denial was minimal (I headed back to the same therapist early on for support; he realized I wasn't going to get out--I am a slow-learner--but was invaluable in the support he provided). I still get nervous when that other person is around, but right now she's in another city a long ways away . . .
Fortunately, things have been a lot more boring since . . .
I apologize to those who may find these disclosures uncomfortable, but as others have noted, they may be hitting close to home. I salute those who've summoned the self-honesty to acknowledge this, and I worry about those who run off in fear of their own demons. Melodie Beattie made note of this, saying of many who avoid Al-Anon or therapy groups that they appear to have found the "mirroring" that such groups provide too threatening . . .
What we find though, is the the scales come way down after a reasonable period of sobriety (Terry Gorski puts the timetable for "full recovery" at around nine years minimum). AA and other support groups provide a structured environment of mutually supportive individuals that is very powerful for those who avail themselves of it. The statement is "AA has a wrench for every nut who walks through the door," and it's fairly accurate. Probably a big factor in AA's effectiveness in addition to the empathy provided is there is less enabling since very few have a lot of money . . . Even as a person is told to place his or her life and faith in a Higher Power, they are placed in a position where they have to take action that will help them develop as autonomous individuals who must ultimately bear responsibility for their own lives and recovery . . .
That's a terrible truth we codependents must face (My God! They don't need us!), but it's for our own greater good as well . . .
Honest, folks, I've had no psychotic episodes (and no meds) for over 20 years, and what triggered that last one was mega-stress--including a death in my immediate family--and the final bust-up of the codie/alkie relationship that I'd tried alternately to either hang on to or extricate myself from (every time I left her, she'd come running after me; so I stopped and said okay, let's go get some help working things out, and she self-destructed about a year later). I gained a bit of insight from that experience on the wisdom of not eating or sleeping for a couple of days (a week in a hospital with a broken leg has that effect).
So you all try to be good to yourself, you hear? Works better that way . . .
What we find, though, in the "grave emotional and mental disorders" category with most addicts/alcoholics is their psychopathology more closely resembles "personality disorder" stuff than the Axis I stuff like bipolar or schizophrenia. The Axis II category includes disorders such as narcissism, histrionic and borderline, and anti-social PD . . .
Does it look "crazy" to the uninitiated? Absolutely. It's kind of a given that reasonably sane people don't react well to insanity . . . I do get a little sensitive on that one, however, having two bi-polar siblings, and so I find this psychological distinction--which may appear as hairsplitting to many--gives me some comfort . . .
BTW, we find many of these "personality disorder" characteristics operating in codependency as well. Timmen Cermak, who's written many seminal works on this subject, notes--rightly I think--that it's most useful to explore the factors that create the "addiction to people" that is the hallmark of our affliction. There is a "chemistry" with toxic sorts that draws us irresistably to the spiked bamboo trap that lies below . . .
That statement by him was a milestone on my own particular journey, which enabled me--while attending a lot of Al-Anon and working with a particularly skilled and sensitive therapist--to pinpoint my own "shame-based" wound that was causing me so much grief. I was able (using the 12-Steps at first to identify it, although I'd missed it in five reasonably responsible inventories) to revisit the event in a therapeutic regression and "exorcise" that particular demon.
My therapist referred to it as an "entitlement" issue, and I agree at this point; I was unconsciously looking for something external to fix something that was internally broken way deep within . . .
Did this "cure" me. Nope . . . I got "creamed" again a few years later (that was 15 years ago), but my own denial was minimal (I headed back to the same therapist early on for support; he realized I wasn't going to get out--I am a slow-learner--but was invaluable in the support he provided). I still get nervous when that other person is around, but right now she's in another city a long ways away . . .
Fortunately, things have been a lot more boring since . . .
I apologize to those who may find these disclosures uncomfortable, but as others have noted, they may be hitting close to home. I salute those who've summoned the self-honesty to acknowledge this, and I worry about those who run off in fear of their own demons. Melodie Beattie made note of this, saying of many who avoid Al-Anon or therapy groups that they appear to have found the "mirroring" that such groups provide too threatening . . .
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 5,075
Originally Posted by concolor1
I apologize to those who may find these disclosures uncomfortable, but as others have noted, they may be hitting close to home. I salute those who've summoned the self-honesty to acknowledge this, and I worry about those who run off in fear of their own demons. Melodie Beattie made note of this, saying of many who avoid Al-Anon or therapy groups that they appear to have found the "mirroring" that such groups provide too threatening . . .
NEG - glad you asked the original question, it always stirs up interesting thoughts. ((()))
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