A question about alcoholism

Old 03-24-2007, 08:53 PM
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A question about alcoholism

Hi everyone.

I have a question for you all...

If alcoholism is a disease that has to do with the substance of alcohol...why is it that there is often still a problem even when the alcoholic stops drinking?

Why isn't there a formal name for this condition that is so often described?

If you read "Under the Influence", it talks about how alcoholics are different than non-alcoholics in that their brains/bodies react differently to alcohol...yet, according to what I've read here at SR, alcoholics often have a certain mental sickness that continues even after quitting drinking ("dry drunk" syndrome, etc.).

So is alcoholism a mental disorder that stands alone, even without any consumption...or is the disease caused by the intake of alcohol?

I hope I'm making my question clear! thanks.
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Old 03-24-2007, 09:00 PM
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hi neg....i never tire of these threads asking questions like yours. i struggle with the definitions.....it seems simple to me....take away the alcohol, then the disease should go away, right? so why are so many such big arseholes when they get sober?

it's just way too big for me to wrap my brain around.

can't wait to read all the responses.
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Old 03-24-2007, 09:02 PM
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I always thought that once the alcohol was gone, things would be fine....with some it probably is. However, I think there are those (like mine) that are still arses when they are sober too..... there is something else going on with them (issue wise) other than just the alcohol.
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Old 03-24-2007, 09:04 PM
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statistics have shown that a high number of alcoholics have underlying issues they have tried to self medicate away with the alcohol....depression-bi polar-anxiety disorders--even ADD that was never picked up on while they were in school.......and sometimes if they have been a user for a long priod of time--they have damaged their brains--I believe it is a disease we are predisposed to genetically.....
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Old 03-24-2007, 09:04 PM
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Is it possible that alcoholics don't necessarily have a specific problem with alcohol per se, but rather they are addicted to running away from themselves?
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Old 03-24-2007, 09:05 PM
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The brain damage is true !!! My AH (God love him) has problems with tests for work, and rationalizing certain things.....I don't remember him always being like this.
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Old 03-24-2007, 09:09 PM
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So is alcoholism a mental disorder that stands alone, even without any consumption...or is the disease caused by the intake of alcohol?
It's my understanding that it stands alone- it's that first drink usually at an early age that starts things but not all who drink become alcoholic.

As for your other questions there could be lots of reasons why the person is still 'having problems' when not drinking- here are some ideas:
They have to make adjustments and learn new ways to live.
The problems are consequences are a result of their past drinking.
They can't cope with things without being numb.
They might just have problems that have nothing to do with not drinking.
They have damaged themselves from drinking.
Their maturation process has been stunted due to drinking.

Recovery is the process of dealing with all of the above. Being sober and living successfully.

I am interested to hear what other people will share.
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Old 03-24-2007, 09:15 PM
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most of those you listed are related to a type of mental illness.....I think in our society people find it easier to be labeled and alcoholic than someone with a mental illness---still that stigma
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Old 03-24-2007, 09:18 PM
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my AH starting drinking around age 13.....(he is 36 now).

I don't think he knew any different, and as an adult has used the alcohol to "numb" himself from bad situations.
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Old 03-24-2007, 09:40 PM
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I don't know the medical/psychological answer to this, but my gut feeling is that addicts/alcoholics have underlying emotional, personality and/or behavior issues that they used drugs/alcohol to deal with. They never learned to deal with things any other way, and so when they get clean, the problems are still there.

I think it is a common misconception, mostly from folks who mean well but just don't know what they are talking about, that all the problems will be gone if the person just gets clean. I have experienced this attitude from folks in my church that are trying to 'help' my AH.

I agree with several things cmc said; I think that addicts get emotionally stunted because they never learn how to cope except with a substance. I also think that, for lots of them (including my AH), the mess they have made of their lives after years of using is so deep and so wide that they are totally overwhelmed by it, and without something to numb reality they can't deal with it.

There is also an issue with real physiological damage to the brain after years of abuse.

Just my thoughts. Interesting thread! I look forward to other responses.
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Old 03-24-2007, 09:45 PM
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Yeah, that's a tough one. Especially for an alkie like me that knows everything

Under the Influence pretty much nails the physical aspect of Alcoholism. The stages we go through, and the changes in the body are spot on. And although it says AA is a good program, it doesn't agree with AAs "character flaws".

Pretty much every alcoholic I know shares some traits. "Character defects", if you will.

1. We're perfectionists. Sometimes OCD, but more often, we have un-realistic expectations of ourselves, those around us, and life in general. A lot of us are "driven".

2. We don't fit in. We always feel on the outside, never a part of. Some of us over-compensate by being extroverts, but just as many of us are introverts. Again, to cope with these feelings, we overdo everything. Work, hobbies, mowing the lawn, you name it (see 1.) Always proving ourselves to others, and ourselves.

3. We're sensitive. Maybe not to you or your needs, but we don't take criticism well. We want to be liked, by everyone. If we're not treated "special", we retaliate via outright aggression or passive aggressiveness, or simply withdraw.

Alcohol helps us feel "better than", helps us integrate with society and socially (so we think), and fuels our perfectionist attitudes. It quiets the anxiety, and lifts us when we're depressed.

If we never drank at all, we would still be lonely, angry, depressed, outcasts.

But after running to alcohol and finding relief, the physical aspect that Under the Influence talks about kicks in. Things begin to change, for the worse, but we don't see it. I swear, it's like waking up one morning and saying "Wow, my life has turned to s**t".

If we can manage to quit drinking (which, when physically dependant is NO easy task), we're still lonely, angry, depressed, outcasts. Only now we're dealing with all of the s**t we created while drinking, and have absolutely no idea how to live a sober, serene life.

The ONLY thing that this alkie has found to work is AA. Not to say other programs don't work, but I tried just about everything.

Hope this helps.
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Old 03-25-2007, 12:19 AM
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Awesome replies to this!! Everyone has great points. Thank you Glassprisoner, I love getting the answers straight from you alcoholics that we are baffled with!

I was thinking too, that many of us struggle with our codependency even when our A is gone. Our behavior follows us, we got so used to that way of life, we struggle to fix it. Maybe that is the same for alcoholism? My A is still a butt. He knows better, but has been that way so long that even sober he still acts like that, only on a milder level and he is more apt to apologize right away for his crap because now he can see it is wrong, it is like it is a habit to be that way. What do you think?
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Old 03-25-2007, 02:11 AM
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Well, I Disagree With Just About Everything Said Here . . .

Particularly the shills for the pharmacy companies who insist that the alcoholic has underlying psychiatric and emotional problems and if we can just find the right pills, we can medicate them into normalcy . . .

For bi-polar or schizophrenic conditions, fine--although the prognosis is likely to be grim--and the research on anti-depressants indicates they have their place because neuro-transmitters have been depleted during the course of the disease and their structures disrupted . . . My experience is those individuals are a very small minority of those who seek treatment, but are over-diagnosed in the treatment community because it's easier to write a script than engage in some confrontive, cowboy-type therapy . . .

It's also cheaper to give them pills than provide a safe therapeutic environment where they can heal at the pace they require . . .

As for statements like, "addicts/alcoholics have underlying emotional, personality and/or behavior issues that they used drugs/alcohol to deal with," that's one of the most unenlightened assessments I've ever heard, and it isn't supported by the literature or the science.

Not that the untreated ACOA's aren't persistently reinventing this particularly wheel and blinded by the perceptual disorders that accompany their condition (is someone going to suggest their stuff is 'normal' and not part of "underlying emotional and behavioral issues"; the characteristics of these types have been repeated documented, and are far more predictable and are likely as problematic as the sober symptoms of alcoholism). It gives them a marvelous excuse not to look at their own role in matters and allows them to focus on the "identified patient." Alas, I sat in on too many family therapy sessions to let that one slide by my BS detector . . .

From a speech I heard from Clancy I. given over 20 years ago: "If your problem is alcohol, the solution is simple. Stop drinking. If your problem is alcoholism, stopping drinking will have no effect on your problem except to make it worse by making reality more painful."

Similarly, in a "Grapevine" article, Clancy also notes, "The sober curse of alcholism is the loss of emotional tolerance for reality."

In the disease itself, there are well-documented and well-understood denial patterns that are adopted as survival mechanisms by that individual when addictive disease develops.

These diseases "mitigate" the emotional responses to an invidual's actions just as ordinary folks' rationalizations mitigate their reaction to ordinary events . . . From Psych 101 . . .

Husband: "You burned the roast."

Wife: "That's because your mother called."

Note the avoidance pattern . . . Not "I forgot because . . ."

As for that ACOA/codependency stuff I was talking about, a friend who's also a former treatment pro said he picked up on that one when he interviewed the significant other of an alcoholic he was counseling and asked, "So how are you doing?"

"I'm fine," was the reply, even though she had been through a series of particularly traumatic crises. My friend said he realized from her "reality" that she really was doing fine in a situation that would have sent ordinary folks reaching for the pill bottle or a gun or a razor blade . . . The cognitive operations and defenses were operating at their peak survival optimum . . .

Okay, rant almost over. Recovery for an alcoholic involves the shattering of the maladaptive defenses adopted in the early course of the disease. Treatment often involves "exorcising" the remnants as well, and providing information and socialization to rebuild more appropriate defenses.

In the meantime, the individual is vulnerable; the sensitivity and adolescent "regression" posturing noted earlier are readily apparent . . .

Add to this alcohol's effect on the neurotransmitter pathways involving both norepinephrine and dopamine--which are raised to a high state of "arousal" during withdrawal, and the picture becomes complete.

It's a disease folks, and I'm not going to stand quietly by while this stuff is used as a club--albeit a sophisticated one--to use on affected individual; the mantra of codependent recovery programs is "put the focus on ourselves," and I see this thread as doing anything but . . .

Probably time to bring in the awful word "motives" again . . . My guess is that people putting this stuff out won't care to have theirs examined . . .

Some excellent works on this subject include those of Vernon Johnson, founder of the Johnson Institute, and early inerventions service, John Bradshaw, Melody Beattie, Rokelle Learner, and others who've pioneered the dysfunctional family/codepency movement, Patricks Carnes and Charlotte Davis Kasl for their work on sexual addictions, and Dr. Drew Pinsky, an addictionologist who regularly appears on a number of cable TV shows.
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Old 03-25-2007, 03:44 AM
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Came into this plan and met king alcohol from day 1.
It affected me mentally , physically and spiritually.
I developed a habit of numbing myself long before i took
my first sip cuz my father beat the living crap out of me
mentally and physically....obviousely my spirit wasn't too happy.
And the world just seems like a f-up place to be.

I survived it...It's a bitch, becuase I also developed a manner
of living of being a survivalist.

Recovery....
Learning how to live, how to laugh, how to cry, how to be happy,
how to be sad, how to love, how to forgive.

No... damn it, i don't want to grow up.....
Reparenting myself, loving myself and that child inside of me
that still havn't really lived, truly lived.
For the love of god...even if there's not a god.
My idea ain't so bad.
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Old 03-25-2007, 03:46 AM
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Originally Posted by concolor1 View Post
It's also cheaper to give them pills than provide a safe therapeutic environment where they can heal at the pace they require . . .

As for statements like, "addicts/alcoholics have underlying emotional, personality and/or behavior issues that they used drugs/alcohol to deal with," that's one of the most unenlightened assessments I've ever heard, and it isn't supported by the literature or the science.
Concolor, these two statements of yours stood out to me. For the first, I think this is true for a lot of people prescribed medications for emotional/psychological problems. Sadly it comes down to cost and time.

I have to disagree with the second statement though. I do think alcoholics and addicts have underlying problems that they use drugs and alcohol to cope with. But name me one single person on this planet who doesn't do the same...we all have problems of some sort, there is really no 'normal', everyone just resorts to different ways of dealing. It never starts out with "I'm so sad, I need to drink/use", its more "Hey that tastes nice/feels good", the hook/pleasure is I think what people are seeking, that and is perhaps the first indication that something isn't 'right' either emotionally or physically.

I don't know the science, but that is what I've seen/experienced. I think alcoholism is part genetics, part environment. As for the 'dry drunk' thing, I think it is the person struggling to completely adjust their known environment. You always have your genes (and I think a lot more than just the known alcoholics have factors for addictions), but you can change your entire everything else. People in sobriety have had to change friends, social and work patterns, emotional reactions....that is stressful, and will make anyone cranky and an arse.

My opinion is that only after a period of addiction does alcoholism stand by itself. Not because it is a mental disorder, but because it is a maladaptive set of behaviors that must be unlearned. From childhood on, you learn cues about how to act, think, etc. That means most people have to unlearn very old cues...thats why alcoholism sort of stays around even after there is no more alcohol. It's not that the that first drink in sobriety is the killer, its the rituals/behaviors that go along with it...those are hard to untangle.

Again, my opinion.
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Old 03-25-2007, 06:18 AM
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Originally Posted by concolor1 View Post
As for statements like, "addicts/alcoholics have underlying emotional, personality and/or behavior issues that they used drugs/alcohol to deal with," that's one of the most unenlightened assessments I've ever heard, and it isn't supported by the literature or the science.
It was just an opinion, and was prefaced by the statement that I DON"T know the medical/psychological answers. All I know is what it looks like from the outside to someone who has been wounded by said addict for 25 years.
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Old 03-25-2007, 06:29 AM
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The way it was described to me was that alcoholism was a mental compulsion paired with a physical addiction. Even if one stops, the other continues. Both have to be addressed for continuing sobriety.

HTH.
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Old 03-25-2007, 06:39 AM
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Originally Posted by concolor1 View Post
Some excellent works on this subject include those of Vernon Johnson, founder of the Johnson Institute, and early inerventions service, John Bradshaw, Melody Beattie, Rokelle Learner, and others who've pioneered the dysfunctional family/codepency movement, Patricks Carnes and Charlotte Davis Kasl for their work on sexual addictions, and Dr. Drew Pinsky, an addictionologist who regularly appears on a number of cable TV shows.
Isn't it interesting - I have read all the literature you suggest, and more; living in L.A. I've also been privileged to attend lectures by Dr. Pinsky at Las Encinas. Yet, I don't share all the conclusions reached in your post.

Take what you like and leave the rest has always been an excellent suggestion.

I also really love 12 step recovery because I know I can walk in the room, speak my mind and not have anyone tell me I'm unenlightened. I had enough of that labeling living with alcoholism for 18 years.
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Old 03-25-2007, 07:45 AM
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Well, thank you everyone for your posts. Obviously, it's not a question that can be definitively answered. People have been trying to explain and understand addiction since the beginning of time. I suppose we do have many theories and ideas, but really, still, no answers.

Of course, we all have underlying issues. I don't think anyone would argue with that. But, at the same time, some issues are more destructive than others. I might have codependent tendencies, but the manifestations of these tendencies certainly did not destroy my marriage. What destroyed my marriage was my husband's alcoholism, denial, and refusal to confront the problem honestly and head-on. And the things he said to me while under the influence changed the way I felt about him. And broke down the trust.

If the tables were turned and he had asked me to get help, I would have - no question. Does this have to do with personality types? I don't know. Does it have to do with the affect that alcohol has had on my AH's brain? Maybe. I don't know.

I think from what I've learned here, is that the addiction problem is multi-fold and has so many layers. We will never know what caused what. All we know is that we have people in our lives who drink to the point of self-destruction and even if they stop, they often still have destructive personality traits.

Like Duet says, we are all just trying to figure out the nature of the beast the best we can - from the outside. We're not saying we're perfect. Hell no.

And maybe in the same way our codependent ways can vary greatly from person to person, so can the manifestations of alcoholism vary greatly from person to person.
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Old 03-25-2007, 01:32 PM
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I think AA tried to defind it......cunning, baffling , and powerful.

I had first hand experince form the inside and the outside.
I am fully aware of the deystructive nature of alcoholism,
and i'm left bewilder for the most part.

Yet, I am awaken to the love and compassion of humanity.
Maybe there is a god..if not, I'll just have to settle for the
love in everyone of us.
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