Pekelover2

I was verbally/physically abused by my mother. I’m trying to use DBT skills to deal with lack of self-esteem and the PTSD that I experience on a daily basis.

In DBT we learn that the words “should/shouldn’t” get us into trouble.

For example:
1. The driver in front of me shouldn’t be going so slowly
2. I should be a faster runner than I am
3. I shouldn’t have dropped that egg on the floor


These make sense to me.
But as I learn more about these skills, I realize that I’m using them in my relationships too:

1. That friend shouldn’t have cancelled on me at the last minute
2. My husband should want to exercise (at least once in a while)
3. That friend should ask *me* how I’m doing sometimes

My question is this:

If I’m using a lot of “should/shouldn’ts” in my *relationships* does this mean I need to find different people to hang out with? Because right now, I truly feel like my needs aren’t being met. I know that on SR I talk about myself a lot! But in my real life, I never talk about myself. I always ask my friends how they’re doing. I always ask my husband how he is. And lately I feel like my friends just tell me all the negative stuff that’s going on in their lives and my husband too. I can’t remember the last time somebody in my real life asked me how I was doing. (Except for my dear friends here).

Please, any advice would help.
Maybe if I gently suggest to my friends something like “hey glad to hear about you. I’m doing well…”etc…
Or is that too passive aggressive?
I’m feeling like I can’t open another text message with a friend telling me all about themselves…just on and on. Truly.

RAL

I don't think you need to find different people just rethink your boundaries and thoughts about the ones you have - my understanding of this is that we have no control over what people do or say and to say should/shouldn't puts expectations on us about what other people say and do-which we can't control. that leads to us feeling resentments and then anger and frustration and feelings of being let down. but imo it's the expectations we have that makes us feeling let down.
maybe rethink :

1-my friend cancelled at the last minute. it's disappointing but it happens. then think is it a regular thing - in which case does she think your time is less important than hers or that you are not important - in which case then yes I would reconsider the friendship. or maybe it's not a regular thing and her babysitter was sick or she was called into the office at the last minute.

2. - It would be nice if my husband exercised for his health and wellbeing but that's his choice and I have no control over it. IT's really not my business.

3. It would be good if my friend asked how I am. If she never does then yes maybe consider if she is a proper frined or not.

I think frienships.like with relationships evolve and everyone seems to have a role. Yours is maybe the lisenting ear. but if that isn't enough for you (which imo it shouldn't be-it sound svery one sided) then yes I would definitely either change my boundaries and talk about myself - she might say oh gosh I'm sorry for not asking how you are. or if she's not interetsed then yes new friends needed

Dee74

Hey PL

I think RALs onto something…is it your friends at fault or are your expectations of people making you miserable?
I don’t know the answer for you but I think generally both sides are worthy of scrutiny?

D

Pekelover2

This was so helpful RAL. Thank you!! 🙏

venuscat

I think you need to reframe those thoughts, love, as RAL said. Because "should" reflects your expectations.

1. That friend shouldn’t have cancelled on me at the last minute — because that is selfish....is this friend selfish? Or did something unavoidable come up?
2. My husband should want to exercise (at least once in a while) — well, it would be good for him if he did, but if he doesn't want to, there is nothing you can do about that. xx
3. That friend should ask *me* how I’m doing sometimes — yes, that would be nice. But sometimes people are just self-involved and it has nothing to do with us. If they are always this way, we get to choose whether we want to hang out with them.

Pekelover2

Hi Dee-
I think that my low self-esteem makes me feel unworthy of letting people know how I am in the first place. So I generally don’t speak about myself. I constantly ask others how they are because I’m truly and genuinely interested.

But lately I feel like I’m invisible. Even my best friend whom I love dearly and who’s been going through a difficult year just seems to be, oblivious to anything that’s really going on in my life. Maybe I should start putting more stuff out there. Like instead of addressing all of her texts maybe I should start putting myself out there saying things like “I’m getting a little anxious about my upcoming surgery” or “my dogs acupuncture appointment went well” . I don’t want to crowbar stuff and that’s not a subject of conversation because it will feel forced. But maybe it’s partly my fault.
What do you think Dee?

Pekelover2

Yes maybe this is key:
“ Maybe I should start putting more stuff out there. Like instead of addressing all of her texts maybe I should start putting myself out there saying things like “I’m getting a little anxious about my upcoming surgery” or “my dogs acupuncture appointment went well” . I don’t want to crowbar stuff and that’s not a subject of conversation because it will feel forced. But maybe it’s partly my fault.”

suki44883

Dee took my ideas. LOL! As I was reading your post, the word "expectations" kept coming up in my mind. So yeah, what Dee said.

Pekelover2

Hi Venus,
Thank you for your reply. And thank you so much for giving me this concrete example. It helps me to see things through your eyes and that is very helpful.
I understand what you’re saying about your sister. But I think with this particular example, she is family. And obviously you can’t change family! That being said, he can help you mitigate your expectations by being realistic about what she can offer you. In my case, I don’t have much family. I call my friends, my chosen family. I know it sounds hokey, but lately I just feel like I’m on the receiving end of so much complaining and venting. And that’s what a friend is! But like I said, I just feel invisible.
I do feel like it’s time to nurture other friendships and maybe put other friendships on hold at least temporarily.

I was supposed to run with a friend on Saturday and she canceled on me that morning. This kind of threw off my whole weekend with respect to exercising because you have to plan things when you do a hard work out. I counted in my head that this was the fifth time she has canceled on me the “day of” since February. But she is prone to sinus headaches.
I think that my bf got the message because I didn’t text her back last night. (I hate doing stuff like that). But this morning she asked me how my weekend was, how the dogs were etc. I know she’s going through a lot at work. But between her and my husband (who works in the ER and who has a lot of stress) I was like gosh I can’t take anymore venting/ranting! Just wrote one positive thing…someone…lol

I’m sorry about you mom and dad not being there at Jewish NY. I really am. 😞

Dee74

I was a people pleaser and conflict avoider for years, even before I started drinking.

What that meant in practice was I ‘was a good listener’ too - which is fine, unless you’re keeping quiet so as to not rock the boat or you’re feeling unworthy of sharing anything….

I think it’s very hard for others to know how I feel if I don’t tell them

It wasn’t easy to start telling people how I felt, and I was a bit heavy handed with it in the beginning, but I got better at it.
You will too

D

venuscat

Sorry that I deleted that part—I thought I was getting too much about me. xx (and thank you for being so lovely).

And I don't think it's hokey at all that your friends are your family. Same here; I have no family in America.

The few close friends I have here, I text with, but I need more than that. So we organise to chat sometimes.
Texting is so weird...some people just use it for quick messages, and some people write books.

I write quick messages, and call if I need to "talk".

And I love that you thought that through and see that your friend's sinus headaches are tough; they are. They are awful. xx

Pekelover2

Dee:
You wrote “ What that meant in practice was I ‘was a good listener’ too - which is fine, unless you’re keeping quiet so as to not rock the boat or you’re feeling unworthy of sharing anything….”
I see what you’re saying. I’m very scared of rocking the boat and I have low self-esteem. But I really am genuinely interested in my friends. I care a lot. My calendar is filled with dates/appointments and vacations that they have. But as I said lately, I just feel like it’s getting exhausting. Maybe I’m starting to come into my own a little bit more and I realize that I’m not being honest with myself. I don’t want to talk about myself a lot! But heck once in a while would be nice. So maybe I will start putting myself out there a little bit more. I will try that.
Venus:
“ Texting is so weird...some people just use it for quick messages, and some people write books.”
This is a really good point. And one that I often forget. I used to get very sad a lot about my mother-in-law. Because she would give me a standard response for anything I wrote. She would literally text: “Glad to hear it” about almost anything I texted her. But at her age I think it’s understandable.

I guess lately I just feel like I am an outlier because of my low self-esteem. The other night I was a book club. And one of my friends told the story. Gosh it was long! I literally was thinking like “I would never tell a story this long and this involved about myself!!l. I guess you can hear a little resentment in my voice, because I was envious that she thought so much of herself, so as to bring up this type of story that actually had no bearing on anything we have been talking about. But she’s like that. And while I don’t aspire to that, I need to find some balance so that I feel less invisible.

Pekelover2

Dee I’m going to try this:

“ I think it’s very hard for others to know how I feel if I don’t tell them ”

Good stuff.

venuscat

I don't think I would be envious of someone who is too self-centred to realise that she has been talking for too long—she should be envious of you for having such good manners that you let her keep talking. xx

You are a lovely person Peke. And your friends are lucky to have you in their lives.

RAL

[QUOTE= But I really am genuinely interested in my friends. I care a lot. My calendar is filled with dates/appointments and vacations that they have. But as I said lately, I just feel like it’s getting exhausting. .[/QUOTE]

It sounds exhausting. I get exhausted keeping up with my own appointments/hols etc Seriously though , it's nice to know when friends are going on hols etc and wish them a good break but maybe you are a bit too much involved in others lives. I hope you know me well enough now to know I say this with kindness Maybe focus all that energy on you and some self care

ToughChoices

For me, I try to reserve the words should/shouldn't for moral judgements.
Like, "You shouldn't kick that dog."

The rest of my preferences are just that. Preferences.
Like, "I prefer a clean kitchen."

If I would prefer more exercise in my partner's life, I could state that preference to him. But, once stated, I need to LEAVE it with him. If I come to decide that I find it morally incorrect to treat one's body in the way that my partner is treating his body, I might change my word to "should", but, again, all I can really do is state my desire, see the other person's actions, then decide what I want to do with the relationship from there.

I try to think about my own history of substance use when it comes to this stuff. My husband certainly thought I "should" stop drinking, long before I was able to see the problem as a BIG problem. Today, I greatly appreciate his willingness to stick with me through that icky period of self-understanding. It would have absolutely been within his rights to say, "I'm outta here. You should stop drinking."

His opinion on the topic certainly made an impact on me. He was content enough with other elements in our relationship to stay married to me through active addiction and into solid recovery, but not everyone feels that way. And that's absolutely understandable!!! We all have the right to live our lives as we see fit!

If you state your honest preferences to people that you love, and they are unwilling or unable to accommodate those preferences, you must decide if you are getting enough out of the relationship to compromise your preferences. If you are not, you can decide to sit in unhappiness/discontentment or change your relationship.

As stated above, others' actions are absolutely outside of your control. But you have full control over your own actions! That's the amazingly freeing part of this.

Anna

Peke, I think that, as long as you put expectations on others, you will be disappointed. Like Dee, I avoided conflict because is triggered my fears from childhood. I slowly removed people who caused upset and conflict in my life, and things gradually became more peaceful. And, I think that thinking of some of your friends as family is excellent. It's really good that you are thinking of ways to take care of yourself, which, of course will help with your recovery.

Pekelover2

“ It sounds exhausting. I get exhausted keeping up with my own appointments/hols etc Seriously though , it's nice to know when friends are going on hols etc and wish them a good break but maybe you are a bit too much involved in others lives. I hope you know me well enough now to know I say this with kindness Maybe focus all that energy on you and some self care ”
I appreciate this, RAL. I’ve always been this way with my friends. I just genuinely worried about other people. I don’t find it challenging or exhausting. But lately I’ve just been a little more introspective. And I realize that I’m not being honest with myself that I don’t feel like I’m being heard a lot. I don’t feel like people ask me enough about what’s going on in my life. And I would like a little bit more of that.

Gosh Venus, yes she does talk quite a lot, lol. Not my fav person in bookclub. We have a very sweet member of book club name Alison. And every once in a while, she will try to talk, and the other lady sort of bulldozes over her. It’s really getting bad.

The other night I actually sort of jumped in and I said “Alison weren’t you going to speak?”. I’m glad that I did that. This other woman is so loud she just drowns others out. Not even sure if she’s aware of it!

venuscat

I'm glad you did that, too.

Pekelover2

Toughchoices:
“ I try to think about my own history of substance use when it comes to this stuff. My husband certainly thought I "should" stop drinking, long before I was able to see the problem as a BIG problem. Today, I greatly appreciate his willingness to stick with me through that icky period of self-understanding. It would have absolutely been within his rights to say, "I'm outta here. You should stop drinking."
Oh boy is this an excellent point. Dear gosh it’s an eye opener to me right now. My drinking has been a huge issue in our marriage-at least for the last 8-10 years.

And:
“ If you state your honest preferences to people that you love, and they are unwilling or unable to accommodate those preferences, you must decide if you are getting enough out of the relationship to compromise your preferences. If you are not, you can decide to sit in unhappiness/discontentment or change your relationship.”
I understand your point. I don’t mind working out with friends or alone. But my husband’s health is really poor now. He’s on anti-hypertension meds. He eats like a teenager and drinks quite a bit. I will continue to bring up exercising I will not nag him about it. Thank you so much!!