Am I doubting myself?
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Join Date: May 2021
Location: England
Posts: 1,850
Am I doubting myself?
I am on Day 9 and have been thinking a lot about the AV, and reading previous threads on this subject. I understand it, or at least I think I do.
I went for a long walk this evening, it had been raining all day so good to get out and be surrounded by the fresh green of park and woodland. There was only me walking. I said out loud . 'I will never drink Alcohol again'. - It made me feel odd. Hundreds of thoughts about the many times I have drunk and enjoyed alcohol came rushing towards me - I said the same sentence again and it filled me with a terrible restless anxiety, verging on panic. I know this is the AV.
Can anyone advise me? Will the very uncomfortable feeling become less as I become better at shutting 'him' down? Right now I feel OK - apart from headaches and terrible insomnia - but I don't feel 'powerful' enough when I say to myself 'I will not drink alcohol again' - I don't know why?
I went for a long walk this evening, it had been raining all day so good to get out and be surrounded by the fresh green of park and woodland. There was only me walking. I said out loud . 'I will never drink Alcohol again'. - It made me feel odd. Hundreds of thoughts about the many times I have drunk and enjoyed alcohol came rushing towards me - I said the same sentence again and it filled me with a terrible restless anxiety, verging on panic. I know this is the AV.
Can anyone advise me? Will the very uncomfortable feeling become less as I become better at shutting 'him' down? Right now I feel OK - apart from headaches and terrible insomnia - but I don't feel 'powerful' enough when I say to myself 'I will not drink alcohol again' - I don't know why?
bona fido dog-lover
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: SF Bay area, CA
Posts: 99,797
When I got sober for good, I had many moments of doubting myself, my resolve, my ability to stay sober. But I just took it one day at a time and tried not to look too far down the road.
Try saying to yourself - I will not drink today.
Try saying to yourself - I will not drink today.
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 211,477
I have not used AVRT but I'm sure those who have will be along DF.
I was not confident of change when I started - why would I with my track record - but I grew confident as time went on and as I built a sober life I loved.
I'm sure that identifying the AV and making a Big Plan will help in that regard too.
This is not the best it will get
Generally no one I've seen here who is successful in maintaining long term remains ambivalent,.DF - we gain a surety, no matter what the method
D
I was not confident of change when I started - why would I with my track record - but I grew confident as time went on and as I built a sober life I loved.
I'm sure that identifying the AV and making a Big Plan will help in that regard too.
This is not the best it will get
Generally no one I've seen here who is successful in maintaining long term remains ambivalent,.DF - we gain a surety, no matter what the method
D
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Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: NSW - Australia
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Doubt is normal in the early days dustyfox. In fact think it a good and necessary thing because has me examine things more closely. Compare what was, with what might be. What I really wanted.
I don't use AVRT either. I think AVRT is just me trying to minimise what alcohol really did to me, and opens the grimy door to giving it another go. Escape myself, and what I truly needed to do. It's the painful bit, and reason we allow doubt to enter. Facing the consequences. Growing.
I try to look honestly, not romantically now at how alcohol effected me and those I cared about. Each time I do this doubt begins to dissolve, and I know with greater certainty that I do not want to drink. Knew I had to go through the pain of growth.
Of this there is no doubt. And it is so much better.
I don't use AVRT either. I think AVRT is just me trying to minimise what alcohol really did to me, and opens the grimy door to giving it another go. Escape myself, and what I truly needed to do. It's the painful bit, and reason we allow doubt to enter. Facing the consequences. Growing.
I try to look honestly, not romantically now at how alcohol effected me and those I cared about. Each time I do this doubt begins to dissolve, and I know with greater certainty that I do not want to drink. Knew I had to go through the pain of growth.
Of this there is no doubt. And it is so much better.
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Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 1,408
I guess all I can say is use whatever works for you.
Maybe saying "one day at a time" to yourself would be better.....just an example.
The last time I went sober I proclaimed to myself and everyone that I had zero faith in my abilities to get sober and felt basically hopeless.
What followed were some of the best sober moments in recent history.
Try to focus on what helps and don't get bogged down with the rhetoric of "never again".
Maybe saying "one day at a time" to yourself would be better.....just an example.
The last time I went sober I proclaimed to myself and everyone that I had zero faith in my abilities to get sober and felt basically hopeless.
What followed were some of the best sober moments in recent history.
Try to focus on what helps and don't get bogged down with the rhetoric of "never again".
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Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Sonoran Desert & Southeast Asia
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DF, it is best to read the Rational Recovery book. AVRT (Addictive Voice Recognition Technique) is the technique used to recognize the addictive voice (AV) when it appears. We can all benefit from realizing the scope of the AV and that any thought of drinking is coming from our addiction. Pure and simple, it is the desire for the deep pleasure of the alcoholic buzz.
The approach used in most recovery programs, as mentioned frequently, is "one day at a time". Just get through the next 24 hours and repeat. The advantage of that approach is that it is easier to commit to the next 24 hours, than a lifetime. If you say "I will not drink today", your Beast (the deep urge to drink) doesn't get too upset, because "it" knows that based on past experience you will probably change your mind at some point. So in that case all "it" needs to do is bide it's time and sneak up on you at the right moment. So in this approach, one has to remain vigilant for the rest of our lives. Technically, the addiction continues. Some people are able to successfully turn that "not today" into decades - one day at a time.
But in your case, when you were saying "I will never drink again", this is more the permanent Rational Recovery approach, and the turmoil you are experiencing is the Beast fighting back. It knows this firm committment will be the end of it's ability to get you to put alcohol in your system, so it is fighting you tooth and nail. You experienced a brief sample of the Death of the Beast. The main concept of Rational Recovery is that by making the firm commitment once, you render the Beast powerless and end the addiction fairly quickly. You wlil get that initial burst of strong Beast activity, then diminishing in strength rapidly as AVRT is used to spot any residual Beast activity. The difficulty with this technique is probably found with making the lifetime (never) commitment.
Here is the Wiki on Rational Recovery:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_Recovery
The approach used in most recovery programs, as mentioned frequently, is "one day at a time". Just get through the next 24 hours and repeat. The advantage of that approach is that it is easier to commit to the next 24 hours, than a lifetime. If you say "I will not drink today", your Beast (the deep urge to drink) doesn't get too upset, because "it" knows that based on past experience you will probably change your mind at some point. So in that case all "it" needs to do is bide it's time and sneak up on you at the right moment. So in this approach, one has to remain vigilant for the rest of our lives. Technically, the addiction continues. Some people are able to successfully turn that "not today" into decades - one day at a time.
But in your case, when you were saying "I will never drink again", this is more the permanent Rational Recovery approach, and the turmoil you are experiencing is the Beast fighting back. It knows this firm committment will be the end of it's ability to get you to put alcohol in your system, so it is fighting you tooth and nail. You experienced a brief sample of the Death of the Beast. The main concept of Rational Recovery is that by making the firm commitment once, you render the Beast powerless and end the addiction fairly quickly. You wlil get that initial burst of strong Beast activity, then diminishing in strength rapidly as AVRT is used to spot any residual Beast activity. The difficulty with this technique is probably found with making the lifetime (never) commitment.
Here is the Wiki on Rational Recovery:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_Recovery
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Join Date: May 2018
Location: Where I’ve longed to be all my life…..here, now.
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When I quit cigs, oct 31, 1987 (5:23pm)
it was the umpteenth time I’d quit
I really wanted not to be a slave to cigs. I really wanted to be happy without them. To quit worrying if I had enough for the weekend. To not NEED them. I believed it was possible, there were people who’d never smoked, and people who’d quit, and they were HAPPY! They didn’t need a cig to celebrate. Or to get past an angry or sad moment.
No meetings for me to help me quit. No meds then either. I marked off a calendar every day, with a black marker ‘X’ through it. After a month, I’d find sometimes I’d have gone three days without crossing a day on calendar.
Those moments happened more frequently. I remember being surprised and happy when 10 days had passed without marking off the days, and it felt SO GOOD to cross out 10 days that had gone by without struggling. I just couldn’t fathom then that I’d be free, free from the chains of nicotine. To think of it in 33 years length was overwhelming back then. But it’s here. And yay!,
It happened for me with alcohol too, at about month 5. I’m looking forward to it again, because I KNOW it gets better.
Hugs to you......
it was the umpteenth time I’d quit
I really wanted not to be a slave to cigs. I really wanted to be happy without them. To quit worrying if I had enough for the weekend. To not NEED them. I believed it was possible, there were people who’d never smoked, and people who’d quit, and they were HAPPY! They didn’t need a cig to celebrate. Or to get past an angry or sad moment.
No meetings for me to help me quit. No meds then either. I marked off a calendar every day, with a black marker ‘X’ through it. After a month, I’d find sometimes I’d have gone three days without crossing a day on calendar.
Those moments happened more frequently. I remember being surprised and happy when 10 days had passed without marking off the days, and it felt SO GOOD to cross out 10 days that had gone by without struggling. I just couldn’t fathom then that I’d be free, free from the chains of nicotine. To think of it in 33 years length was overwhelming back then. But it’s here. And yay!,
It happened for me with alcohol too, at about month 5. I’m looking forward to it again, because I KNOW it gets better.
Hugs to you......
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Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 3,748
You are exactly where you are supposed to be in thoughts and emotion.
Keep moving forward with determination to win in this moment and for today. Believe in the process if that even makes sense?
It is a process. One that is confusing and overwhelming at times. You are doing this!
Keep moving forward with determination to win in this moment and for today. Believe in the process if that even makes sense?
It is a process. One that is confusing and overwhelming at times. You are doing this!
quat
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: terra (mostly)firma
Posts: 4,823
Along with reading the Rational Recovery book there are several long (and really good ) threads on AVRT in the Secular forums here on SR.
Lots of questions , explanations and experience.
Amazing how saying that sentence to one’s self brings the AV into pristine focus , right ? (Almost like there is something to it )
Lots of questions , explanations and experience.
Amazing how saying that sentence to one’s self brings the AV into pristine focus , right ? (Almost like there is something to it
)Not The Way way, Just the way
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: US
Posts: 1,413
Originally Posted by dustyfox 
I am on Day 9 and have been thinking a lot about the AV, and reading previous threads on this subject. I understand it, or at least I think I do.
The AV is simply the bark of the Beast, that specific ingrained appetite for alcohol that YOU have decided is wrong for you to ever indulge again. It can cause feelings and use English in your thoughts; BUT IT is harmless if you separate from IT, and refuse to act upon ITs pleadings through ITs usual recall.
I went for a long walk this evening, it had been raining all day so good to get out and be surrounded by the fresh green of park and woodland. There was only me walking. I said out loud . 'I will never drink Alcohol again'. - It made me feel odd.
Hundreds of thoughts about the many times I have drunk and enjoyed alcohol came rushing towards me - I said the same sentence again and it filled me with a terrible restless anxiety, verging on panic. I know this is the AV.
Whether you have actually made that pledge yet is up to you. You WILL know when you’ve done it.
When you actually MAKE the pledge, there is a good chance you will experience the Abstinence Commitment Effect (the ACE of Rational Recovery). The ACE is an amazingly wonderful sense of sudden change. I bet behind that “odd” feeling you mentioned was a sense of the apparent magic that occurs within when willfulness can actually DESTROY a biological power from ever being enacted upon in the future. Because YOU know it is wrong to fulfill that bio-power’s recall, and you can simply MAKE IT UP for yourself that you are 100% confident about NEVER drinking again.
Can anyone advise me? Will the very uncomfortable feeling become less as I become better at shutting 'him' down? Right now I feel OK - apart from headaches and terrible insomnia - but I don't feel 'powerful' enough when I say to myself 'I will not drink alcohol again' - I don't know why?
I cannot predict how fast the “very uncomfortable feeling” will become less uncomfortable, but given enough time, there will become a time when you will offhandedly realize you have forgetten what it felt like to be under the influence of alcohol.
GT
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Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 2,584
Dustyfox, yes that is the beast fighting back. I had been sober more than a year (using another approach) when I found out about AVRT. I had occasional thoughts of drinking in that year, but they diminished over the year and were becoming quite rare. When I learned about AVRT and read the book and the threads here on SR, I said out loud to myself "I will never drink again and will never change my mind". All of the sudden I had massive very loud arguments arising in my head about drinking, how I'm not really addicted, how I could take a vacation and have a few drinks, blah blah blah. I had loud attacks for days, when previously I was hardly ever even thinking about drinking. It was quite interesting and surprising. So yeah, your addiction doesn't like you closing the door on it forever, but you absolutely can do that 100%. The thoughts and feelings will quiet down over time, but may never completely go away, but that really doesn't matter. Over time it can become quite effortless to flick them to the curb.
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Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 259
When I quit I didn't know if it was going to be permanent. I did know I was committed to a few months sobriety and trying a recovery plan for once so I did iop. It was during those months that I resolved to build a sober life and let go of alcohol. A lot of that was due to becoming more educated about the biologiical and neurological impacts alcohol had on me. I realized I was never going to control alcohol and things were only going to get worse, for example. Around 3 months I decided I needed to permanently abstain from booze and haven't regretted it at all
Blue Belt
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Soberville, USA
Posts: 4,174
So many words on analysis etc. to stay clean.
Yes, that is a big part of it, but for me it was like this.
I was going absolutely insane for the first 90 days plus. I didn't understand until I found SR and learned I had permanent brain damage from too much drinking.
It took well over 3 years to see big change, more like getting used to feeling insane. Then it got better.
Exercise helped. Eating healthy. Hydrate. Prayers. Suffering suffering suffering. Time time time.
That is how i got this clean. It hurt so bad, I will never do that again. The stove was HOT.
Thanks.
Yes, that is a big part of it, but for me it was like this.
I was going absolutely insane for the first 90 days plus. I didn't understand until I found SR and learned I had permanent brain damage from too much drinking.
It took well over 3 years to see big change, more like getting used to feeling insane. Then it got better.
Exercise helped. Eating healthy. Hydrate. Prayers. Suffering suffering suffering. Time time time.
That is how i got this clean. It hurt so bad, I will never do that again. The stove was HOT.
Thanks.
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Join Date: May 2021
Location: England
Posts: 1,850
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_Recovery[/QUOTE]
Thank you for the link advbike - it puts it pretty much in a nutshell - I can see there is a debate as to which method is helpful but I guess not one size fits all. - I like the extreme approach of RR and ADRT but then I have been, at times, an extreme drinker - so extremes appeal to me, But whether I am up to it who knows! I do see the irony of the whole thing. There is a process that needs to be gone through , not just a finality, of I WILL NEVER DRINK AGAIN, as the body whether I like it or not ( that would be not) is craving something - and that I have to deal with on a day by day basis as others sensibly point out.
Thank you for the link advbike - it puts it pretty much in a nutshell - I can see there is a debate as to which method is helpful but I guess not one size fits all. - I like the extreme approach of RR and ADRT but then I have been, at times, an extreme drinker - so extremes appeal to me, But whether I am up to it who knows! I do see the irony of the whole thing. There is a process that needs to be gone through , not just a finality, of I WILL NEVER DRINK AGAIN, as the body whether I like it or not ( that would be not) is craving something - and that I have to deal with on a day by day basis as others sensibly point out.
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I am very heartened by these words of advice and experience. I am new to this area of thinking, I know little of the 12 step programme or of RR or AVRT but I can see there are elements of each which are potentially helpful. I know for sure that it would have been even more of a struggle over the last few days, had I not had access to the support here.
I do not want to have to keep going through this endless battle to STOP drinking. I too like Free2bmee stopped smoking maybe 10 years ago, I cant remember when, and I did do that on my own, maybe it's harder to hide the fact you smoke from your friends and family, or maybe I was just more motivated because at the time because I still has alcohol left as a consolation prize.
The loud arguments that Tursiops mention about 'not being really addicted' Wow those crop up all the time, 'How can I be addicted if I have not drunk for last 9 days, surely I can just moderate, just have a drink when I go out/on holiday' - those arguments exhaust me because I know it wont work - that is why I just need to shut the AV down completely..
The thing is GerandTwine when you say "Exactly! You are getting it. You forced it out into the open by reciting the pledge, and it cannot avoid the blazing spotlight of YOUR consciousness presenting to yourself your knowledge of the pledge that will kill IT.
Whether you have actually made that pledge yet is up to you. You WILL know when you’ve done it."
I don't think I have done it - but, I have forced it into the open I can feel BEAST squirming, wriggling, struggling in the spotlight - but it does feel like a fight! It feel as if my body will fly apart which is odd. I acknowledge that there is a 'power' at work in me and one which is uncomfortable . I use power in apostrophes again as it's something I am not quite sure about. One good outcome is that the huge effort yesterday to say I WILL NEVER DRINK ALCOHOL AGAIN - makes saying 'I will not drink today' quite a relief!
I am guessing as MIZZ said "You are exactly where you are supposed to be in thoughts and emotion" - I think that's right - I am on only my second most serious attempt at stopping in over 30 years - the first serious attempt I did on my own and lasted one year - all the other attempts were half hearted nods towards 'cutting down' - If it was easy there would be no alcoholics, no recovering alcoholics no problem drinkers. I have ordered the Jack Trimpey book - I am not keen on self help books as I find them annoying, smug, patronising or just banal - but clearly he had a good idea about using semantics and sort of NLP to create a new way to deal with addiction. I will be interested to read it. Thanks for every comment - I am reading them more than once to absorb as much wisdom as possible. Thank you once more for your kindness.
I do not want to have to keep going through this endless battle to STOP drinking. I too like Free2bmee stopped smoking maybe 10 years ago, I cant remember when, and I did do that on my own, maybe it's harder to hide the fact you smoke from your friends and family, or maybe I was just more motivated because at the time because I still has alcohol left as a consolation prize.
The loud arguments that Tursiops mention about 'not being really addicted' Wow those crop up all the time, 'How can I be addicted if I have not drunk for last 9 days, surely I can just moderate, just have a drink when I go out/on holiday' - those arguments exhaust me because I know it wont work - that is why I just need to shut the AV down completely..
The thing is GerandTwine when you say "Exactly! You are getting it. You forced it out into the open by reciting the pledge, and it cannot avoid the blazing spotlight of YOUR consciousness presenting to yourself your knowledge of the pledge that will kill IT.
Whether you have actually made that pledge yet is up to you. You WILL know when you’ve done it."
I don't think I have done it - but, I have forced it into the open I can feel BEAST squirming, wriggling, struggling in the spotlight - but it does feel like a fight! It feel as if my body will fly apart which is odd. I acknowledge that there is a 'power' at work in me and one which is uncomfortable . I use power in apostrophes again as it's something I am not quite sure about. One good outcome is that the huge effort yesterday to say I WILL NEVER DRINK ALCOHOL AGAIN - makes saying 'I will not drink today' quite a relief!
I am guessing as MIZZ said "You are exactly where you are supposed to be in thoughts and emotion" - I think that's right - I am on only my second most serious attempt at stopping in over 30 years - the first serious attempt I did on my own and lasted one year - all the other attempts were half hearted nods towards 'cutting down' - If it was easy there would be no alcoholics, no recovering alcoholics no problem drinkers. I have ordered the Jack Trimpey book - I am not keen on self help books as I find them annoying, smug, patronising or just banal - but clearly he had a good idea about using semantics and sort of NLP to create a new way to deal with addiction. I will be interested to read it. Thanks for every comment - I am reading them more than once to absorb as much wisdom as possible. Thank you once more for your kindness.
Not The Way way, Just the way
Join Date: Jan 2012
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Originally Posted by dustyfox
One good outcome is that the huge effort yesterday to say I WILL NEVER DRINK ALCOHOL AGAIN - makes saying 'I will not drink today' quite a relief!
Think about this sentence. Where is this evaluation, response, and resulting feeling actually coming from?
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Yes, I am laughing even as I read it! It is so obviously the AV bleating with pleasure that I am giving him a little hole through which to wriggle his way back in! So I say - I will NEVER DRINK ALCOHOL AGAIN!! That is also a first for me laughing at the AV .
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Once we get over the physical addiction then we have to contend with what is happening inside ourselves. I had to work on all aspects. Emotional, physical, mental and spiritual. They say quitting is the easy part. Its the living part that is hard. I think I found that to be true initially. Our minds want to find any reason imaginable to go back to alcohol.
When we remove alcohol from our lives there is a void. Filling that void is essential. It takes a lot of work and a lot of dedication. Alcoholism is very self absorbing. Recovering from alcoholism is the same. Each day lived without alcohol is a gift of freedom and a chance to learn how to live in the world without numbing and altering our state of mind and emotions. Structure and discipline gave me the gift of life.
You will get there and you will be so happy for it. Some days all I could do was chop wood and carry water and I did not experience much freedom. These days I still chop wood and carry water but there is joy in the task. I appreciate this part of the road and the heavy burden of addiction has been replaced by joy and a stillness that I would never find in a bottle of wine. Chop wood and carry water and keep posting your thoughts. We are here for you.
When we remove alcohol from our lives there is a void. Filling that void is essential. It takes a lot of work and a lot of dedication. Alcoholism is very self absorbing. Recovering from alcoholism is the same. Each day lived without alcohol is a gift of freedom and a chance to learn how to live in the world without numbing and altering our state of mind and emotions. Structure and discipline gave me the gift of life.
You will get there and you will be so happy for it. Some days all I could do was chop wood and carry water and I did not experience much freedom. These days I still chop wood and carry water but there is joy in the task. I appreciate this part of the road and the heavy burden of addiction has been replaced by joy and a stillness that I would never find in a bottle of wine. Chop wood and carry water and keep posting your thoughts. We are here for you.
Not The Way way, Just the way
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: US
Posts: 1,413
Originally Posted by dustyfox
Yes, I am laughing even as I read it! It is so obviously the AV bleating with pleasure that I am giving him a little hole through which to wriggle his way back in! So I say - I will NEVER DRINK ALCOHOL AGAIN!! That is also a first for me laughing at the AV .
Yes, now you are on your way away from addiction, and in the very midst of recovery. A recovery using AVRT offers the shortest recovery period I know of.
However loud and emotional your AV may be, there is no good reason for you to ever act upon it. Enjoy the almost magical capacity of your WILL over its power - one of the best uses of your humanity possible.
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'Joy and Stillness' something I love but have had too little of - it makes me feel like crying - just the sheer nonsense of the years of battle. Battle weary I am for sure.
Magical works for me - transformation is magical - I feel it.
Magical works for me - transformation is magical - I feel it.
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