FireSprite

I am fact gathering on this topic for a good friend & welcome any recommendations on books, etc that can help. I know a LOT of you have experience with Narcissism so I thought I'd start here.

This particular subcategory (or whatever the right term is) is new to me - that someone can sort of be a passive narcissist. While it's been easy to pick up some narc qualities in my friend's husband, I've always hesitated to use it as a label. Narcissism is a BIG term & few people actually fit the bill 100% - even while many people display some of the qualities some of the time.

Things in their world have really escalated over the last month & some of the stuff she's starting to feel comfortable sharing changed the way I saw this though..... that's what sent me digging enough to uncover this term & understand that maybe, just maybe, he does qualify.

My friend is in therapy & attempting to do a few marriage counseling sessions & potentially diagnosed. I'm just trying to get as much info gathered for her ahead of that as I can.

trailmix

Yes I think it is interesting that there are sub-categories of narcissism as well, although I guess it makes sense because it's not that they don't have personalities, it's just that narcs are usually described as aggressive and having all-encompassing personalities, when of course that's not always the case (at least on the surface).

I think there are also ones that fall somewhere in between - introvert and extrovert, just like the regular population - as well as fluctuating between the two. That is why it's hard to recognize them sometimes I think.

I recommend Sam Vaknin's pages/you tube videos. When I was researching narcissism I read, pretty much, all of his work, on tripod:

Narcissism at a Glance

As he explains it as a narcissist, it can be rough going to try to wrap your head around it sometimes (some pages I read several times because, like any PD, it can be hard to grasp how someone thinks like that).

He also has a lot of youtube videos and I haven't watched many but they seem pretty spot on.

pdm22

Needabreak

There is definitely such a thing as a covert narcissist. These are narcissists who seem insecure, like victims, who control thru guilt and neediness. They don't seem like the popular examples of grandiose narcissists, so often we don't see them coming or understand what they are all about, but they can definitely do some damage.

Sort of like codependents, except that codependent energy goes outward, giving too much to others, whereas covert narcissist energy is more like a bottomless hole in need of supply.

This is exactly the type of person I used to be attracted to before I took a good look at my own dysfunctions. My mother was a classic covert narcissist, so go figure.

I believe narcissism, like codependency, occurs on a spectrum, so some people can have narcissistic (and codependent) tendencies that activate in certain situations, but aren't always prevalent. Addicition can be one of those scenarios.

Shaman Sister Sin has a series of youtube videos on this subject that I found very informative and helpful to my understanding. Google Shaman Sister Sin Covert to find out more.

FireSprite

Aha... YES! - this is the kind of stuff that made it confusing for me - his constant self-victimization. And holy heck are you spot-on about the bottomless hole!

Thank you ALL - I'll follow up on the links later after I get off work, keep 'em coming!

MindfulMan

I find it interesting to look at ALL of the four Cluster B personality disorders. In my life I've found that most people that have caused me distress have aspects of more than one of them, although one is usually dominant (I've survived relationships with a narcissist and a borderline, but they both had strong elements of the other two as well).

A friend of mine that works as an inpatient psychiatric social worker says that professionally amongst themselves the term "Cluster B Cluster****" is common.

https://www.mentalhelp.net/articles/...ers-cluster-b/

NYCDoglvr

When it comes to active alcoholics and those in early recovery what some people call narcissism is really a characteristic of alcoholism. In the Big Book Bill Wilson describes alcoholics as self-centered in the extreme with enormous self will. I've heard it called the "M&M disease": me and more. But narcissists never change and alcoholics can learn to keep a lid on their selfishness by working a recovery program.

SmallButMighty

Strongly agree with the parts I quoted from MindfulMan.

I always knew something was WRONG with my ex-mother in law. I had great empathy for her because despite all the terribly selfish things she did and said she truly seemed to be suffering. Someone suggested to me she could be NPD so I looked it up, she had some of those qualities, but when I read through the other associated Cluster B types, she absolutely personified BPD ( borderline) with a healthy dose of HPD ( histrionic) thrown in for good measure. She had suffered abuses as a child which is one of the factors of BPD. Of course I'm not a psychiatrist and she never would have gone to one so there was never a diagnosis. Unfortunately, even when there is a diagnosis little can be done unless the patient fully accepts the diagnosis and is willing to work hard "fixing" themselves. Much like an alcoholic. It's easy to understand why often PDs and alcoholism commingle in the afflicted.

Coincidentally XMIL was/is also an alcoholic. Her behavior led to my AXH and I completely cutting them off a few years before we separated. My AXH remains No-contact because they are so toxic. ( And that's saying something considering how messed up he is... ahhh sick family cycles ....)

I don't have any advice, just wanted to share my experience. I feel for anyone that is dealing with a loved one who has Cluster B PDs. It's really rough stuff.

trailmix

That is true and even there it perhaps shares a border with alcoholism, as NYC mentioned.

FireSprite

Just to be clear - he is NOT an alcoholic so far as I am aware. I'm not talking about a situation with dual-diagnosis in that way.

Thank you guys so much for all this input - the human mind fascinates me so while this is not my monkey, I can't help wanting to KNOW MORE, lol.

Plus, the way she's connecting the dots & speaking up in ways she never could before is revealing a lot of new info about a situation I thought I had a basic understanding about..... we've been close friends for 18 years! Now that we're looking through a different lens, the patterns & behaviors go back much farther & are much clearer than anyone understood. She's finding that her therapist is having a hard time counseling her through this so she's also searching for a better fit... someone more willing to hang with her through the hard stuff.

It's hard stuff, but I'm proud of her for finally taking some baby steps.

SmallButMighty

Absolutely agree that could be true in many cases.

I know in the case of my XMIL she didn't become an alcoholic until she was in her late thirties. Her BPD behavior manifested itself much earlier then that.

I do believe that as is the case with many mental and emotional illnesses, that when people decide to self medicate with alcohol to the point of developing alcoholism... the viciousness of the diseases becomes exponential.

It's just all so damn sad.

FireSprite

This always gets me too. I also think it's less obvious but just as abundant in all kinds of people that aren't on the spectrum of mental illness.

People numb away emotions in all kinds of ways & some people are SO good at it that they can numb a little here & a little there & a bit over that way & it all looks separated. But when you step back & take in the Big Picture, it's no different than if they expended all that numbing energy in the same way & developed an "ism" as a result.

trailmix

Yes, good for her, it can't be easy. I know when I encountered what I consider to be a narcissist, I didn't know that much about it and didn't see it. In fact I knew something was off but I couldn't put my finger on it. I think it can be really confusing. With NPD in particular the person is generally mirroring you back to yourself so what's not to like!

This person ate the same food I did (stocked the fridge with it before I would come over) we are talking chicken, salad and fruit, not every guys dream menu.

Liked what I liked, did what I wanted to do when I wanted to do it. Was generally kind and accommodating, not too awfully frugal and worked and etc etc

There was also a dark side though.

There was always something not quite right. Behaviours that seemed out of character. The way he talked about his interests and past were conflicting.

For instance he claimed he loved camping, the outdoors, nothing better than a good camp fire! Well when push came to shove he displayed very little interest in that in practical terms. That's "off". I didn't know his family but to make a long story short once he moved back from whence he came and I heard the stories of day to day (from him) I realized he had just taken on the skills and interests of his Brother as his own. He was actually a bookworm.

Ah the stories I could tell! But that's just some idea of another thing to look for - those "action" things, saying this is what I am but actually not "being" that.

thequest

I see both characteristics here. Grandiosity and constant attempts to shame and guilt along with berating others for their decisions because they think it affected them.

The alcoholic here always trying to drum up sympathy, not just support along with trying to shame or guilt you. His fashion and car choices are grandiose for example. As are many other things. He refuses to buy on the cheap for status reasons alone. That might come from insecurity but he also has very aggressive tendencies. Then again he's always puts on a front to his own detriment.

He continued to spend and over spend on status related brands and recreational activities so his friends wouldn't realize how finacially dire his situation was. Then again he's always afraid he'll miss something.

It's always about him and what someone else did wrong. He would've done it 'this way' ie the "correct" way.

endofmyrope65

My A wife accused me of being a covert narcissist when i got on her case for going to fancy bars and upscale hotel bars to drink while telling me she was elsewhere. She'd come home trashed. She dressed to attract attention. There have been uncomfortably close male relationships because of which we put a No Opposite Friends policy in place... which she now wants to not honor.

So now I am a CN.

I am quite stable. Been to plenty of counseling all who said i was within normal range of personality. I am not an A. I do not have an addictive personality. I just dont want to get hurt again and a good way to if both partners "protect" the marriage by not putting ourselves in less than safe environments.

So because I get in the way of her drinking and social gratification, I am now a CN.

Pretty funny actually... NOT!

There are several words that are overused... like abuse. Not only am I a NC but I am also abusive... because i dont want her to drink cause she losses all boundaries and is a horrible drunk... yes she gets angry then violent, wants male friends, and basically wants to do what she wants, where she wants, when she wants and with who she wants and I have no say at all.

Nice after 35 years huh? I hear the alcohol yelling at me. And I cant stand it... I am also hearing that word "divorce" whisper in my ear if this continues.

OpheliaKatz

Ok, my two cents.

I think it's difficult to diagnose narcissism unless you're actually qualified to do so. I guess you have to ask yourself what your boundaries are and if you think this person is a jerk or not. They don't need to have a diagnosis for you to decide that you want boundaries.

So while my exAh has not been diagnosed with anything formerly (as if he's going to walk into a psychologist's office and say, "hey I think I may be a covert narcissist, please diagnose me", especially since the covert kind often play up their victim-hood so the psychologist is going to say, "oh, you have trauma"), he does have behavior that makes him seem like a covert cerebral narcissist or a sociopath. But then, that can be explained by the fact that he does have past trauma, is an addict who started his drug abuse at adolescence, and IS abusive (but doesn't see his behavior as abusive).

I think the difference is that a true narcissist or sociopath can't or is unlikely to be ever "cured". The only reason Sam Vaknin was diagnosed was because his behavior was so terrible, it landed him with a court-ordered shrink who diagnosed him. Despite his expertise about the cause of his own condition, I also feel weird watching Vaknin's videos because... well, I feel uncomfortable giving him attention because... I almost feel as if I am watching someone do something private -- do you know what I mean? I feel like I'm watching him clean his ears or something.

Maybe someone you know is a cluster B. Or maybe they're just jerks. If they are cluster Bs and they happen to read this post, they might think this post is about them. But really it's about you or me and what we find acceptable. So my take is: they are just jerks.

About abuse: there is sexual, financial, emotional and physical abuse. All of those types of abuse are horrible. I'm not just talking about a scenario where you're mad at your spouse, so you go to the shoe store and buy four pairs of buttery Italian leather loafers, because your spouse is the breadwinner of the family and you want to hit him/her where it hurts. I don't think that's financial abuse, I think that's immature... and also, maybe you're a hoarder... and also really dumb. Financial abuse is also NOT when your spouse drinks the entire bank account, so you open your own bank account where you deposit your hard-earned money; while their bank account is empty because they are too drunk to stand let alone work. Likewise, sexual abuse is not about refusing to have sex for months because you're in menopause and the plumbing is broke -- that's not sexual abuse, that's a medical issue that needs a medical help (maybe... or maybe it needs more creativity).

Abuse is about one person trying to control another person through punishment. It's about a fundamental lack of respect for the other person as a human being. It's behavior that can be dangerous to the victim sexually, emotionally, financially, or physically. Lundy Bancroft's books describe abuse well.

So that's my two cents.

trailmix

Well stated Ophelia! Plus it was interesting to read, so thank you.

No, we can't truly diagnose a narc and as you said, most are never diagnosed because why would they be, there is nothing wrong with them!

Speaking of which the narc I knew (I am actually taking the liberty of diagnosing him because there is no doubt in my mind what he is) he was sitting here once (with a book, It was the bible I think) on the floor, reading and he kind of said to himself in a low voice "I don't really need to change myself, I'm ok just the way I am". Not to me, just to himself, but because I was right there I chimed in with - yeah - why would you! Actually thinking - omg - but by then it was not my circus and he was due to leave in a few days.

The thing is, we can drill these things down to they are "jerks". Alcoholics by and large, when drunk (which for most is a lot of the time) are jerks. People with NPD can be raging jerks. Liar's, charmers, abusers, violent, manipulators. Unless someone sees that though, they may not realize what is really going on.

They may be unhappy, they may be uncomfortable, they may be unable to let go, for whatever reason so unless it is discussed, how do we, any of us, work through it.

I know for me I spent many hours on the phone with my family member going over this stuff because it really does mess up your mind, plus I was in a very vulnerable place going in to that relationship.

So from that perspective I think it helps to hash it out perhaps?

Oh and I absolutely agree with you about Sam! That is why I watched so few of his videos, if you read the stuff I linked to, it's a tough read and even the written word from him is too much sometimes, but preferable to the videos.

For me I really needed to know, to be able to let it go, by understanding it I was able to let it go.

OpheliaKatz

For me, the reason that I started looking into narcs and sociopaths is because some of his exes said he was both of those things, even though he had not been ever diagnosed. But I think the other reason I started looking into narcissistic abuse is also because when a person is in an emotionally abusive relationship, they are gaslit until they don't know where their elbows are. So by the time there was actual violence, I was in total shock because I had spent the majority of my time with my ex thinking, "oh he's not abusive, he's just sick." Meanwhile the people closest to me were being manipulated against me (he used to encourage my negative feelings against my immediate family so that I was seriously thinking about cutting them out of my life). In truth, my immediate family, although they have codie tendencies, are LESS toxic than an active A. One of the things that people forget about abusive relationships is that the victim is brainwashed. No one in their right mind dates or marries someone they KNOW to be abusive. But by the time they figure it out, they're so stuck in the relationship that there is a huge emotional and financial cost to leaving.

So part of recovery is getting the narrative clear in your head. Ex: "yes, it IS abusive if my partner has a tantrum, breaks my things, and then demands I make him breakfast" etc... "yes that really DID happen..." etc. Survivors have to rewire their brains. Sometime this happens to survivors of childhood sexual assault too. They doubt what really happened to them (and sadly, some of them turn to drugs to "tune out" the voice in their head that's saying, "it really did happen"). One of the reasons you might want to label the person who abused you is because the behavior is so crazy sometimes, you think, well... there simply must be an explanation.

Of course not all As are abusive. In my case, my ex had mental health issues, FOO issues, drug issues, AND he thought that abusive behavior was "normal" -- as in, "normal" if you force an adult to sit on the ground while you shout in their face (heck, it's bad even if you do that to a child). He was very, very messed up, not normal. Might be a narc... but probably just crazy and high on amphetamines. In any case, I am glad I did not hang around to find out.

The reason I am still on SR is not because I think I have great advice to give people. The REAL reason I am still here, is because reading about the things that happen to people who continue (or are currently in) a relationship with an active A, helps me. Also responding to their posts with small details of my personal experience, reinforces my self-knowledge. It also reminds me never to go back. I feel sorry for people if they stub their toes -- that's what I do. I have to remember that I don't need to feel sorry for people when they knowingly make choices that cause suffering for themselves.

Mango212

I typically go with the phrase "narcissistic behaviors". In my FOO it's extreme narcissistic behaviors and I've been the scapegoat.

I'm ready to move ahead.

dandylion

This thread makes me think of this classic song.....lol....

You're So Vain- Carly Simon YouTube lyrics