Pathwaytofree

I love my parents and see after doing my step work, I know they did the best they could with what they have. I forgive my mother for being an absolute evil abusive monster toward me, when all I did was try to please her and love her. I know now there was severe mental illness from her.

But I can't seem to get past the fact that she always acted and acts like an adult who has the emotional maturity of a 2 year old. It's really hard to have your own parent like this. I know it must've stemmed from sort of really bad trauma in her life. But why did she not learn how to grow up and parent properly and get over her past with professional help?

She had jobs, (although changed them often), had friends, hobbies, and stuff like that. In both private and public she was often a raving lunatic if she didn't get her way. She was smart enough to manipulate anyone and everyone to do what she wanted them to do. This is where I have a disconnect. If someone has the emotional maturity of a 2 year old, how are they also able to be intelligent enough to have jobs, a profession, friends, hobbies, do adult responsible things, etc.? It just doesn't make sense.

Some days I wonder if she talks like a 2 year old with just me, or with other people in her life. I don't think we've ever had a normal conversation. I think I must remind her in personality or looks of the person who abused her and that's why she hates me so much. She's always treated my sibling very differently than me. My sibling looks like and acts like my mother's favorite relative.

I know now looking back, my sibling was the "parent" to my mother. I'm assuming this is a common phenomenon with an alcoholic parent and a child. I never really thought that it must have been a difficult role for her, because she seemed to get an ego-boost out of being in this role. I thought she liked it. But expectations of her were always very high, and I imagine that must've been difficult to live up to all the time.

My sibling never has a bad word to say about my mother, either, which is really annoying. If my mother told her that I was rotten, a brat, no good, bad, etc. (which wasn't true, damn it!!!! I was a GOOD kid!!!) then she believed it. Why didn't anyone notice the obvious that as a child I only "acted up" around her and not around anyone else? I wasn't being bad, I was just reacting to my mother's psychotic and very abusive and cruel treatment of me.

Sometimes I wish I had recorded her just for proof, that I could show "see I'm not crazy, that is how she talks, acts and treats me when you all aren't around." But I know I just needed to trust my own eyes, ears, and heart. She still acted crazy with others, just not to the extent that she did when it was just she and I at home or in the car or wherever.

Sometimes when I'm with her or on the phone, I can let her rambling 2 year old venting anger rage, or rambling 2 year old babbling raving and boasting all go in one ear and out the other, and give my timely "oh that's great!" or "oh wow, how awful!" etc. and play my role. But other times, I get upset. It's so hard to take. I've struggled with having my own identity and life because of her.

Untreated alcoholism, which usually and often (but not always, could just stem from a child being born with a sensitive personality) stems from abuse during childhood or trauma, looks like anger, resentments, rage, heightened sensitivity, wanting things exactly your way, wanting people to act exactly like you want them to, and at the moment you want them to, wanting the world to stop and pull out the clean well pressed red carpet just for you, hurting others without being able to see that they're hurting others, etc. Untreated alcoholics don't let life eb and flow, take everything personality, lie to themselves and lie to others, do things to get their way, hold onto every single tiny little grudge for decades, rant over things other people let go, act extremely grandeois or arrogant, or act like they are the lowest of the low. Of course this is just a generalization and not all of us are like this and it definitely is on a scale of extremes. But I worked hard for my recovery. You know how the big book talks about some unfortunates that can't recover because they are just mentally incapable? Yup that'd be my mom. I've never heard her utter the words "I'm sorry" or "I love you" in all my life to anyone. One tiny drop of self-awareness would probably land her in the insane asylum.

Anyone else with similar experience? How did you process it all and overcome it? How did you learn to parent yourself and not continue to believe the lies?

Pathwaytofree

Can anyone enlighten me as to why no one replied to my post? :-(

Maudcat

You ask very good, but very difficult questions, PTF.
I think the damage done by our parents is a difficult thing to get past, but it is possible.
For many years, I made some not so great decisions.
I believe a lot of my thinking went back to growing up in a house with an emotionally distant, drinking parent.
Once that enlightenment came, my way forward became a lot clearer.
Lastly, sometimes I think that, if nothing else, we can look to our parents as terrific examples of how NOT to be.
Peace.

DesertEyes

I've been quite ill the last few days. In addition, this is a very small and quiet forum, the "regulars" check in about once a week so please don't feel ignored if it takes a few days to get replies to your questions.

Mike
Moderator, SR

thotful

For me, the disease of alcoholism is just plain cunning, baffling, and powerful. It operates on a completely different level. It drives the sane insane. It takes good people and drives them to do bad things. It takes away a person's maturity, sense of self, and literally destroys them. It's extremely painful to watch as a bystander wishing you could fix it. But you can't.

We can't control the disease. We can't cure the disease. Nor can we cure it.

Our loved one is drowning in quicksand, little by little, bit by bit, screaming and hollering on the way - heck, denying that they're even sinking! I don't need help - I can step out of this any time I want to...

My father is an active high-functioning alcoholic. I haven't heard from him in years. He just stopped - or was it the other way around? Did I just stop trying to keep the relationship going? It sucks to feel like you keep on rowing and rowing and realize the other person is doing jack-squat and the boat is just moving in circles. I sent him a goodbye letter pouring my heart out and wondering if he really didn't want to see me anymore (with not a single indication of why) - that he was suffering and I had seen him feeling so much better when he was beating the disease back. That I believed in him and what an amazing thing it could be if he asked for help and went out and got it. I received NO response. NONE. Which seems to fit your description of immature behavior. This is my father - the person that you would think would bend over backwards for their child - but not mine. His behavior has often been all about himself and no one else. I would not ask for his help when things are hard for me - I just wouldn't. He was physically, mentally, and financially available for me as a child (had food, water, shelter, and he came home after work, etc) - but what was seriously lacking was he never felt emotionally invested in our relationship. It's to the point where I'm confused about how a father should be - my solace is through thinking about what I wanted from a dad, and trying to be that. I work very hard to fix the things I hated as a child for my little one - I'm not completely perfect at it, but I hope that I get better.

Yes, for me, several loved ones behave completely immaturely. Such is the disease. Very frustrating. It's not something I can change and can be quite aggravating. A difficult sibling that I"m sure is suffering from the disease as well told me "I don't love you, you're not my family" when I was trying to work things out with him and told him I loved him and wished him well. And yet, zero of my family members would acknowledge how horrible that kind of behavior is - that it can't be ignored, erased, and forgotten - that's not how it works.

As for replies - I've experienced it myself as well and would take it personally sometimes. Try not to do that. It isn't personal. This particular group has less traffic than others. I will sometimes write on the general family/friends of alcoholics section due to a significantly higher traffic volume there (ie, more chance to get responses and a diverse set of responses to consider).

Anyways, I'm so sorry your loved one is suffering - and so are you. I compare alcoholism to dropping a grenade in the middle of a family -
it doesn't hurt just the alcoholic - it hurts everyone around them -
the closer they are, the greater the hit.

Even if our loved one may refuse to get help, we can at the very least go get help for ourselves. Lead by example and take care of you - do for you what you wish your parent did for themselves.

Pathwaytofree

Thanks Maudcat.... I was trying to figure out if there was something wrong with how I asked, or if maybe my post was too emotional or long or something. It actually is helpful to hear that the questions I ask are difficult to answer. Sometimes I forget that. Sometimes I think everyone else knows the answers but me.

I do well.... and then I fall right back into the rabbit hole and all the hard work I've done over the years fall down the hole with me too.

I didn't make the greatest decisions with who I chose to date.... and of course that was viewed harshly on me because *I* chose "bad boyfriends". They are clueless that I chose the boyfriends I did because of the chaos in the house, (it didn't take much to make either parent's heightened emotions to come out like a volcano) and how I was treated and spoken to.

But that was a long time ago. It's ok. I know the truth. I don't care that they never will get it. I am sorry you grew up with an emotionally distant drinking parent. That's hard for a child to not take that personally and think there's something wrong with them, when that's not the truth at all.

Same here.... and I need to focus on that.... it's too easy for me to fall back or want to tell them the truth until they get it. Fact is, they'll probably never see it.

This is something I struggled a great deal, with my sponsor and step work. Sometimes when I acted out and needed to speak with her about it, she'd say "You just acted like your mother." That's the worst thing anyone could ever say to me. It caused me to feel suicidal. I would never say that to a sponsee. I would help her grow from her self awareness, without comparing her to a parent.

I asked my husband (i.e. post recovery/step work/amends) if he thought I was like her and he said "No, you're not like your mother, your mother is evil." My sponsor didn't believe he was telling the truth. I know he was. What he was trying to say was, "If you ever acted in behavior that seems like your mother, I know that is not the real you. You're not evil like her. Your motives and intentions were different. You're just broken because of her but I see the real you below it." My sponsor did not and does not have a clear understanding of how my mother acted.

Something stressful happened recently, and at the end of the day I said to my husband calmly, "I didn't take my stress out on you today, did I." He said, "No, you didn't. And you should know that I've noticed that many times lately you haven't done that." I was glad for my growth. He doesn't deserve that. It was never on purpose. My mother, on the other hand, didn't act in ways that she was taking her stress out on me. She was just a monster and wanted power over me and wanted me to fear her. Her anger was purposeful.

When I grew up, I figured I had two choices in life: to be like my dad, or to be like my mom. I chose to be like my dad (I've always been more like my dad in personality, anyways). I never knew I had other options. I always craved role models. I never believed that the answers were inside me. I never believed I could be different. Someone once said to me, "How about instead of being your mom or being your dad, you just be you?"(I forget who said it, but most likely it was one of my favorite therapists.) It was a seed that freed me.

There's a fiction book I read about a year ago, where there was a white supremacist couple. The woman is having a baby, and the nurse was African American. The reader finds out why they became white supremacists. Toward the end of the book, the woman finds out that her bio-mother was African American. She tries to kill herself, to get her mother out of her. That's exactly how I felt when my sponsor told me I was acting like my mother, when I was trying to be honest and self-aware of my behavior. She doesn't know my mother, my father, or my husband. She just knows me and she should've just focused on me.

I know the truth, and the truth is I am me and I can choose to act and think in much healthier ways than she ever did. I know I was blessed with trudging through the road of recovery to get to where I am and have a sense of peace in my life now. I know she will never find peace while living, but I am 100% confident she will find peace finally in the afterlife. I feel sorry for her now, instead of holding onto a lifetime of resentment I've had toward her. She was broken and chose to treat me exactly how she was treated, instead of treating me how she would've liked to have been treated.

But this understanding doesn't mean I don't still get confused, upset, and wanting her to act differently sometimes..... I've got more healing and growing to still do......

Thank you. That's all we want, isn't it?
Peace to you as well.

Pathwaytofree

Hi Mike,

I am sorry to hear you've been ill recently. I hope you are on the mend and feeling better.

Thank you for letting me know this is a quiet forum. I wasn't aware.

Be well,
PTF

Pathwaytofree

Thank you, thotful. This was really perfectly said. I don't think my mother was ever a good person but deep, deep inside perhaps she is. I think she knows on some level that she is not a good person and that drives her nuts.

You described alcoholism perfectly. It sucks to see that I know I'm a good person beneath this awful disease, but then the disease makes me full of self-hate and shame. That's why it's helpful to see that it is the part of the disease.

My dad couldn't fix my mom and neither could we. She needs a higher power to fix her. She'll find that in the afterlife.

I never tried to consciously fix her, but unconsciously I did, with lots of people-pleasing and trying to be, do, say, exactly how she wanted me to do. I think my sibling tried to fix her. It must've been painful for her. She used logic to try to fix her. But I don't think it ever worked. Thanks for pointing that out, it gives me more compassion for my sibling who was in the parental role.

Best thing that Al-anon and ACOA teaches. But hard to get from the head to the heart.... I was so terrified of how much truth hit my heart at my first ACOA meeting that I coudn't go back. I wish I had stayed back then. But I guess I wasn't ready.

Yes. I see that in hindsight in myself, and I see that in my mother. For me, it was something like, "I know I have a problem but don't worry, I'm strong enough and capable enough and smart enough to fix it." I felt like a failure when I couldn't. For my mother, I think it was more like "It's everyone else's fault why I am drowning in this damn quicksand!!!! Get me out of this NOW!!!!!"

You know what? It doesn't matter which way it was. I once heard a circuit speaker say "God's way of protection sometimes is by removal." If your dad is a high functioning alcoholic, then he sees no reason to change.... Trust me the truth is there below it all, but he runs from it. And the truth is making him uncomfortable, even though he likely keeps a smile on his face and denies the truth. The obsession for the drink is stronger than the strength and courage to face the truth. He hasn't reached a low bottom yet where he is forced to finally see the truth head on.

This makes me feel sad for you. Be kind to yourself. If you're doing all the work in a relationship and for whatever reason, you're not seeing effort from the other, gently put down the oars with love. Maybe he's not able to row. Maybe he doesn't know how. Or maybe he doesn't want to. And what the reason, that's okay. Accept it with love and step out of the boat.

I look up to you that you were able to write an honest letter like that. I don't know why your father didn't write back. I wish I could tell you why. But maybe your dad is uncomfortable with your truth--with your ability to face your emotions and be honest--because he can't be.

Unfortunately that's the disease of alcoholism. It causes us not to grow up. And it's not because of the alcohol or drugs or chemicals themselves. It's because we get stuck in thinking and acting like we did as children. We didn't grow. I grew from my step work and a connection with my higher power. But you know what? You know how it's easier to learn a language when you're a kid vs when you're older? I think it would've been a lot easier had I grown the way normies do. But that wasn't my path. It's okay now, though. No one life is supposed to be easy or happen a certain way.

It's hard to let go of the picture of how a parent should've been. Trust me, I get it. And it's at a much, much deeper level than it may appear at the surface. I've tried decades ago to explain it to friends, but they don't get it. But know that I completely get it when you said that he should've been the person who bends over backward for you but it was always all about him. Unfortunately that is the selfish, self-centered immature part of alcoholism. It's as if they look like adults on the outside, but on the inside they are still a child. And we have children raising children.

You are very wise to know to not do that. I once asked my dad for help when I was going through the roughest time in my life, and he sent me the cruelest letter a parent could send a child. Fortunately I didn't read it until after I was home from a painful suicide attempt (Yes I had reached that low.....). There was a very strong, clear message in my home that once you're out on your own, you do not ever share anything bad with us, or have the gall to ask for help, because we did so much for you when we raised you. If something goes wrong, it's YOUR fault. I was bewildered by my dad's behavior but I see now where it stems from.

That sounds exactly how it was with my parents. And how dare I say anything to make them feel like they weren't good parents, because I had food, water, shelter, dinner at the same hour, rides to doctor's appointments, etc. Yeah on the outside it looked like the home of Leave it to Beaver or one of those other family shows. But a child needs much more than "the basics". We're not dogs. And even dogs need more than food, water, shelter, and a consistent dinner time.

I've grown to see that alcoholic parents just didn't know how to love or deal with the emotional aspects of raising children, because they didn't have that sort of experience, either. My mother used to cruelly make fun of the cards I picked out for birthdays, etc. and went on to tell me what kind of cards she liked. I see now that she was uncomfortable with the love I was trying to give her, because she didn't know how to love, and she certainly didn't love herself. It frightened her to have such an introspective, giving, loving child. She couldn't handle it.

It's why I've changed religions but that's for a different post. ;-)

I don't have children but I think this sounds perfect. If I did have children, I would think about how my child-self would've wanted my parent to have treated me in each given situation. I would've combined that with my adult-self's gut instinct of what to do as a parent.

I think an important part of being a parent is trying to see things from a child's perspective. For example, yesterday I was shopping and there were three extremely unruly children. I sort of stayed around just to observe. The father was there, and he seemed like the completely oblivious type. The little girl was screaming at her younger brother to sit in the cart and was talking way too firmly to him. I know she was just emulating her mother. The little boy was frightened by his sister's tone and behavior, and started screaming, crying, and running away, which made the sister act more harsh. Finally the mother come out and harshly fixed the situation.

I could clearly see and hear that the little boy was terrified of how his sister chose to handle the situation. And that the little boy probably just needed a calm sister or parent to look at him in the eyes, and calmly and clearly tell him to sit in the cart and stay there while they shopped. The father's way of "parenting'' was to shut down, tune it all out, and ignore it all with a smile on his face. The mother's way of "parenting" was to use force, fear, and a harsh tone of voice, finger pointing, etc. to get a sense of control. But had either parent stopped to think, "What did I need as a child? How did I feel when my parents treated me this way? How would I have liked to be treated at that age?" then perhaps the situation would've been a lot calmer. What I was viewing in public was the chaos and calamity of a likely alcoholic family.

You sound extremely healthy. Unfortunately, when one gets healthy, this "upsets the apple cart" so to speak. The unhealthy family members don't want us to become healthy. They need us to all stay sick, and to stay in our own sick roles. Again, I know it hurts but perhaps this is a way of protection for you. Your sibling saying "I don't love you" means they don't love themselves. They're hurt that you got well, are intimidated and frightened by it, and that's how they chose to hurt you back by saying what they said. A healthy person would never say that to a sibling. Don't let it hurt you. Stay above it.

It's so hard to not take it personally. I need to work on this more for sure. When I see her treat others differently than she treats me, it is so hard to not take it personally.

Thanks for letting me know that the family/friends of alcoholics forum gets more traffic.

That's unfortunately a great analogy.

Thank goodness for that. Thank for your that advice. It's strong advice and I will try my best to take it. Parenting ourselves is a very important part of this process. And sometimes that includes detaching with love.

DesertEyes

We are a very mellow bunch I know I really appreciate this forum because it is the opposite of the chaos I was raised in. You are welcome to drop in whenever the feeling moves you, whether it be once a day or once a year is just fine. Nobody has to post to be a member, and there is no limits on how much you can post. Us the forum as a journal if you like, or just hang around as a lurker. You are one of us and we want you to feel welcome... even though it can take a few days for one of us to actually show up and say "Oh, helloooo there!! and welcome!"

Mike

Babescake

I'm replying as a currently addicted parent trying to get help and make it stick. Nobody in my family or my husband's is an alcoholic. Yet, mental illness (panic/anxiety and depression) is very prevalent in my family.

I didn't become an alcoholic until my 30s, after my child was born and hormones/clinical depression/other factors shaped it. Progressed (magic words) over time. I drank normally for a long time. But these last 6 months have made me on the bottom's edge. 40 lb weight gain, divorce, no job, feel like **** and drinking more than ever. I gave it up a bit ago but probably too late. Yet, my parents are amazing. No bad trauma in my background. (Had a rape before college.) But therapy, depression, etc., existed long before alcohol. It's just an easy trap to fall into and then it takes over.

StellaBlu

PathwayToFree, thank you for sharing your story. The way you describe your mother and your relationship with her was very similar to my mother and my relationship to her. My mother is an alcoholic and is out of control sometimes. And she has been known to act like the biggest toddler I've ever seen...but only in front of me. She has friends who think she's 'great to be around and fun'. And I know that side of her as well; witty, charming, intelligent. She can have a great sense of humor.

Like you, my sibling has a different relationship with my mother and tends not to say anything negative about her. My mother's worst side tended to come out when she was interacting with me alone. Like you, I feel I was a sensitive kid who meant well but was never 'seen' as such.

I struggled with my relationship with my mother for decades. At some point I decided to stop talking to her - which caused a lot of backlash against me from family members. The longest I stopped talking to her was for about 8 years or so.

It wasn't until the past couple of years in which I've begun to have the healthiest relationship with her that I've ever had in my life. And I think what did it was that she was diagnosed with COPD which progressed to emphysema. In other words, she was confronting her own mortality. I think she went through therapy (although her previous bouts of therapy seemingly had no effect). And I could tell that she wanted to have a better relationship with me.

She is still an alcoholic who drinks cases of beer weekly. She has emphysema and is on oxygen at night but still smokes packs of cigarettes daily. But the difference now is that I feel like she now 'owns' her diseases. She doesn't talk about them. She's seems at peace with know that smoking and drinking will cause her death and has made the active decision to continue with both.

Don't know if this is helpful. I wish you the best.

rstingbeachface

My therapist has helped me tremendously in the area of learning to become my own loving parent. One thing she had me to do was find a photo of myself as a child in which I was looking at the camera and to talk to "her." Most importantly, LISTEN to "her." One thing I had to do for her was to cease contact with both of my parents. To continue interacting with them was to continue to experience new wounds, hearing new lies. Even the most innocuous, shallow phone conversations were hurtful because I have to hear their drunken voices and act as if that is not the case, they are "fine," in fact they are admirable and wonderful. My role is to agree. Playing the game at ALL is emotional self-harm and I no longer have the margin for it. So, I have stopped requiring my inner child to continue doing it. It's not been well-received by them (of course) but my inner child is feeling protected. She NOW has a loving parent who is going to stop putting her in impossible situations, who is going to be gentle with her. "She" and I are navigating this new space now, not sure what to do with it, but it feels freeing.

Jess2014

I don’t really have any advice but all I can say is that I can relate to a lot of things you said. I’m currently trying to detach from my mother because of her alcoholism but right now I’m receiving a lot of back lash from my family especially my sister who also doesn’t have a bad thing to say about my mother. For years I’ve put up with my mother acting like a child and just pretending it was ok. Actually I don’t even think I pretended, I just didnt know any better. My mom would always have these “tantrums” if things didn’t go her way, but that was just how mom is! As my family would put it. During all the big events in my life, like a child, she made them about herself because she literally couldn’t have the ability to think about others. On my wedding day she called me and asked if I could drive her to the mall so she could exchange her dress. That’s just one small story. But again, I was conditioned to believe that oh well that’s just mom. It wasn’t until I had my child this year that I realized that actually it’s not ok and I don’t need to put up with it. I don’t want my daugher around when I’m not sure if she’s drunk, hungover, or worse. I’ve seen how little patience she has for children, I don’t want her to blow up on my child if my child has a meltdown at some point. She called me last week after I told her I won’t be coming around any more unless she gets help ( this will not happen) and the things she said on the phone made me affirm that my decision to detach was the right one. She told me she was a good mother (making me feel guilt) and why was everyone so mean to her (more guilt). And just then I thought, a ha! , this is why I never stand up for myself, because my mom has made me feel shame and guilt when I do. So I said to her that I will reach out to her when I am ready. And when I finally do, I’ve decided the only time she will see me or my daughter is in a public place like the park or a pool. We used to visit her at her house, but she couldn’t even get dressed and her house is an absolute pig stye. So a public place will have to do. So ya, like I said I don’t have the answers, I’m still trying to figure that out. I do feel guilt and shame for changing the family dynamic but I’m learning that’s because my family doesn’t want to see the truth. I’m not going to my moms puppet anymore.

Pathwaytofree

Hi StellBlu,
Thanks so much for your post. I am sorry you had a similar relationship with your mother. But it helps me a lot to hear from others so that I know I'm not alone or crazy in this experience.

Yes exactly this is where it is really messed up. And it's nearly impossible to explain her behavior to therapists, without them thinking we are the ones who are nuts. My mother can come across as very intelligent and with a dry sense of human around her friends, but with me she turns into an absolute 2 year old. I think it's a game for her to not be caught. To want to f%$k with my head and be like "no one will ever believe you; they'll think YOU'RE the crazy one. Do you feel that way, too?

I don't think my sibling will ever see the truth or believe me. It sucks. I did have a family member recently tell me that he remembers times when my mother "would go all crazy on you" but I don't know what he saw or heard, and I doubt it was the worst of her worst. Mothers like her are very good at blaming the child and people believe them.

I once had a neighbor come over and tell me what a good child I was, because she always saw me helping my dad outdoors. She always gave me a warm smile when I saw her, too. I think she and her husband sensed something wasn't right with my mother but for whatever reason they chose not to call DYFS. (I wish they did, but my mother would have likely charmed her way out of it). I swear that comment alone likely kept me from trying to kill myself when I was younger. It validated something within that I couldn't validate for myself at the time because of all the crazy making going on around me.

Same here. I had a therapist suggest going "no contact'' and it made things a lot worse for me. I was made to feel bad and guilty about the stress I was causing my parents and my family for going no contact. So then I found that going VLC was better, although still not a perfect solution for me. I will say that I did my best work in therapy when I went NC because it allowed me the opportunity to work on myself with them being in my head.

It sucks that society doesn't get why a child would go "no contact" and I wish I had stood in my truth stronger back then. Instead, I'd get very anxious anytime someone asked why I wasn't seeing my parents for whatever holiday, etc. I wish I had had a set thing to say back to people, and I wish I had stood strong in whatever it was I would've said. People have cut off family members for a lot less things than what happened to me.

Wow. Seriously? She went through therapy? I don't think my mother would ever go through therapy. My sibling tried to go to therapy but she was basically asked to leave during her first appointment. (Boy I would've loved to have been a fly on that wall... I can only imagine what she said.)

I am sorry your mother had COPD and emphysema but I have heard that sometimes when faced with mortality, abusive people change. I do not think that's changing my mother. She's very weird what it comes to her facing her own mortality. I can't explain it. If someone in the family is going through a health crisis, she then starts talking ad nausea about her medical issues. I think mortality frightens her desperately but she's unwilling to look at anything. She is completely incapable of any crumb of self examination. I have to be okay with the apology that I will never get. She was nice when I saw her most recently and she's softened somewhat in her old age, but I know I'll probably never hear an apology. In fact, two times ago she brought up something really horrific and terrorizing that I had unneatly stuffed down all these years.

Wow. That is humble of her. She's not blaming anyone? I'm glad she has found her peace, even though it's a roundabout sort of way.
It most definitely was. Thank you. I wish you the best in your own healing and peace.

Pathwaytofree

I love this! I had a therapist start to do this with me, but it felt so painful and uncomfortable. Perhaps I should try again, though.

I love that she stressed to LISTEN to "her". I was never listened to as a child. Ever. My thoughts, feelings, wants, needs, opinions, etc were ALWAYS shut down harshly or I was teased about them.

I commend you for doing this. This is where AA and certain religions don't make sense. Why should I do something that is harming ME? Where do *I* come into all of this? I, like you, kept experiencing not only new wounds and hearing new lies, but having the old wounds reopen again and the old lies replayed. It kept me sick. I needed to get away from it to heal.

Exactly. Shame on me for not looking at all they did for me..... they are wonderful and I must just be an ungrateful brat. (Nope!)

I commend you for doing this!! My role was also to agree with whatever horrendous thing they were venting and raging about, be a good little sounding board, let them talk over me, make them feel better about themselves, let them brag, boast, bitch, vent, complain, etc etc etc.

I hadn't even thought of that as "emotional self harm." I really like that term. It sums it up perfectly. I had a therapist try to help me keep conversations short. Sometimes I can, and other times I feel too guilty to do so.

They'll get used to it eventually, as long as you stand your ground when they try to push your buttons or get an "in". It's like that screaming toddler having a temper tantrum to get her way, who eventually realizes she's not and stops trying.

I LOVE how you are parenting your inner child. Is there a book or website you'd recommend that I can learn about this further? I kind of have a feeling my current therapist isn't into inner child stuff. Just a hunch.

Thank you for sharing your experience and what helped. :-)

Pathwaytofree

Hi Jess,
Welcome to SR! I am sorry that you are going through something similar. I hope it helps you to see that you are not alone in your experiences. Keep trusting your gut and standing in your own truth. Don't let anyone tell you it's wrong.

Detaching will be challenging in the moment, but you will be so much healthier because of it. It's common to get backlash because you are doing something that they don't like. They're trying to control you.

Your sister likely either is just like your mother, or has had extremely different experiences with your mother. This is unfortunately a common phenomenon too. These types of mothers will treat one child as if they're all-good and golden, and one child as all-bad and horrible. Do not seek validation from your sister, for you will not get it. Seek validation from within.

I think most of us had this experience, too. When we were children, we had to figure out how best to survive this. Now you see that you can change your thinking and reactions about her.

That sounds a like like my mom. But you know that you don't have to except it. I've come to a place where now I just let her have a tantrum if that's what she's going to do, but I don't react to it anymore. They don't scare me, terrorize me, make me want to fix her and make her feel better, etc. I know I can't say anything rational to make her see her irrational behavior. I just let her be. I detach.

My mother also makes every big event about herself, or does or says things to get the attention placed on her. She doesn't care who she hurts in the process. She doesn't have the ability to think of others, either, unless it's something medical. She sort of had a form of Munchausen syndrome, but I am trying not to think about it so I don't want to get into it.

I wouldn't have enough time in this week to write about the stunts my mother pulled before and on my wedding, so I will have to skip that subject, too. And to all the people who say "Well you should be grateful to your parents at your wedding" I say [insert curse word here] you have no right to say anything until you walked a mile in my shoes and understood the mental and psychological abuse.

Bravo!!! You're protecting your child exactly like someone should have protected you and me. Some women just should never have been mothers.

WOW. I will live vicariously through your post because I don't think I'd be alive if I said those words to my mother. She would've strangeled me over the phone. SHE'S not the one who needs help. Everyone else does. When my therapist from when I still lived at home just very politely stated to my parents, "Your daughter is depressed", my mother went off into the craziest rage and temper tantrum. Her face was turning purple because she was trying not to. It was nuts. But I'm glad she did it in front of someone because I had a witness finally to validate my experience. My father, however, spent the entire car ride home lecturing me about what a fantastic mother I have. I continued to waste precious time in therapy in denial about being depressed, because the message to me was loud and clear:"how DARE you?!?!"

Allow no one to tell you any differently.

Yup! That's exactly what they do. And they never admit to their wrongs, or apologize. Ever. My mother used to rage at me for I have no idea what, and then once she'd calm down, she'd come out of her room and coldly make me apologize to HER. It was really hard to search my brain hard to figure out what it was I was supposed to apologize to her for, but it was usually something like for my tone of voice or for not jumping to do something the split second she said to do it or for not doing something up to her militant standards.

You gotta do what feels right in your heart.

If she wants you to come over, or asks why you're not coming over, you can tell her you will go over if she gets dressed and cleans the house. It's all about your setting boundaries and not letting her disrespect them.

I don't think any of us have the answers.

Do not let others make you feel guilt and shame. Don't allow them to put that on you. Dysfunctional families don't ever want to see the truth because it upsets the dynamics. Everyone has their sick set role that they're expected to play.

Good for you for not allowing your mother to be your puppeteer any longer! Cut those strings and be free! Don't let her puppet your daughter around, either. When mothers can't get to their daughters, they go to the fathers or the grandchildren as their new source.

Apologies if I gave advice in some spots of my reply here. I didn't mean to give unsolicited advice. That's just my way of trying to help others avoid the mistakes I made. Feel free to ignore it if you want.

PeacefulWater12

Gosh I related very much to what you share, Pathway To Free, I appreciate your original post was made quite some time ago.

I just wanted to say you are not alone in this.

I have very few memories of my childhood but one very strong one was me wondering when I was a very young kid why dad seemed so childish.

My brain couldn't make any sense of it. Surely mums and dads were meant to be the grown ups.

Pathwaytofree

Thanks PeacefulWater.

Thank you for saying that, although I am sorry to hear you have had similar experiences. I'm glad there's a board on SR for all of us to say "Hey. You're not alone with that. I experienced that, too." If nothing else to validate our own sanity.

I am sorry you experienced that, too. But it sounds like you were able to see from a young age that something wasn't right with HIM. For me, I was brainwashed into thinking that something wasn't right with ME.

YES my brain couldn't make any sense of it, either. And it certainly does not lead to feelings of safety and security that are so necessary for children.

The way my mother acted childish was not cute. It was downright scary and at times embarrassing and very confusing. My dad catered to it, though, as if it was normal. He'd smile and go along with it. It's hard to describe if you haven't experienced it. It's not a normal type of "hey mom loves and gets giddy over ice cream because that was her favorite treat as a child" or something like that. It's different. It's disturbing.

I wonder if my mom knew something was wrong with her on some level, and then lashed out on me because maybe she saw that I could tell something was wrong with her. Hmm.

I'm trying to think of an example I could share here on SR that'd be general enough. There's a few examples that wouldn't be general enough and I have to be careful in case a sibling is on here. But I'll share one: whenever it's my mother's birthday, she makes a *huge fuss* over it, exactly like a loud 4 year old seeking attention. She gets very loud at the restaurant and says stuff like "It's my birthday so I can order anything I want off the menu, right, PTF?" Or "It's my birthday and I can have a piece of cake!!!!" really loud. The entire conversation in the car and at the restaurant is about her birthday. It's embarrassing and uncomfortable. It's not a child's job to cater to a parent/parents who are still children in adult bodies.

I am certain my siblings felt the same way I do, but how do you approach a sibling and say "do you also feel like mom acts like a 2 year old, or is it just me?" I don't think it's an easy thing for children to talk about. I have one sibling who acted like the "adult" and although our relationship is quite strained, I see that that must have been hard for her.

Oh, my mom used to also throw temper tantrums in public if one of us wasn't acting like a perfect sweet little angel (meaning: not acting like normal children) and she'd say in this childish voice, "That's it, I'm running away!!!" She'd vacillate between being a raging terrifying lunatic and acting like a child.

It's not easy having an emotionally stunted parent stuck in childhood.

The other day, I was reading stuff online about the book Mommie Dearest and Christina. I don't know why I do that, because instead of giving me validation with identification, it always makes me feel worse. It is sad to see how many articles, amazon.com comments, etc. there are that say that Christina must've made this all up, it's far fetched, she's fantasial (I can't think of the right word for that), she wrote the book for the money, she was a bad child, her mother was nothing like she claims, etc.

People just can't wrap their heads around the fact that parents like this actually DO exist, and they'd rather pretend it just isn't true.

Thaky

Reading your post was like reliving my childhood. It seems that some alcoholic moms can be very similar.

My mother (recently passed) acted very much like yours. I think that I resembled my mother's older sister, in her eyes. She hated her sister and would vent all over me as a result. I didn't know this at the time (my aunt lived in Sweden until I was a teenager.) I saw photos of her, but children don't see how they resemble other family members, due to lack of life experience.

I didn't cope very well as a kid, but when I was an older teen, I learned how to distance myself from mom and my sister (both alcoholics by then). Disengaging from hostile family members was my only peace. My stomach hurt my whole life (while living at home) and it didn't stop until I completely detached from them for about a year. I really only realized this only after we began to have limited contact with them again after my first child was born. As soon as I woke up to this, my husband and I seriously limited how and when we would see them, and always visited them at their home rather than having them visit us. That way, we could limit how long the visit was and kept visits to a minimum. (My parents and sibs are NOT social people.)

As for the damage caused by the lies foisted off on me most of my life, I have to say that it took time and the love of a wonderful friend (whom I married) for me to see that it was all lies. I was a normal kid, who had a very screwed up family (especially mother). The miracle is that HE had a similar backstory (alcoholic mother, workaholic dad), but he was already detached emotionally from them as they always told him that he had been adopted, and he was very different (he was an undiagnosed, mildly autistic guy, that could happily be by himself most of the time. So, the more they ignored him, the better he liked it.)

My friend (now husband) was and still is my "therapy." He helped me survive my teens and loved me for who I am, unconditionally. He's the reason that I could separate myself from my toxic past and helped me stay away from toxic relationships with others. I believe that he's the reason why I can love anyone, including myself. When you grow up being attacked by your primary caregiver, it makes it very difficult to lower your defenses and learn how to love someone. Unless you receive love, it's hard to give it.

We have two sons, and I love them both, but I had difficulties bonding to my eldest (he was a premie), but when the second one came along, I had learned how to be a tiger of a mom. I became extremely defensive of them both. That's not to say that everything was "coming up roses." My temper was always an issue for me to deal with, and young boys can test anyone's patience at times , but with my husband's calm and steadying personality, it really helped. Without his help, I don't think I would have turned out sane or happy.

Pathwaytofree

I am sorry, Thaky, that you had a similar experience. I hope you feel the same relief that I feel, to be able to talk about these things with people who truly get it.

My mother often used sugar in many of the rages I mentioned, which leads me to believe that for some physiologically sensitive folks, sugar and alcohol have the same chemical effects. Has anyone else noticed that with their parents?? I think my mother's mother also had the rages with first alcohol and sugar and then later just sugar when she didn't drink.

I am certain I reminded my mother of a relative she hated, even just by facial expressions or my being a strong, outgoing child. Her golden child daughter reminded my mother of her favorite relative. Whether this was subconscious or not doesn't really matter to me. People like our mothers had zero self awareness anyway or empathy except where it would suit themselves.

I didn't cope well as a kid, either. I was brainwashed to believe that everything was my fault, I was bad, and overly sensitive. I see now very clearly this was all to keep me under her control and power. The only way I distanced myself was by spending a lot of time in my room listening to music, reading, or going to another room to watch tv. I used to love watching tv programs with motherly mothers.

I also had horrible stomach aches until my late 20s. My D.O./psychiatrist doctor explained to me that people have "panic attacks" in their stomachs. I had no idea. I was speechless when he said that. That was definitely me.

You are extremely lucky! My husband does the best he can, but he doesn't always experience my parents and sisters the way I do. They are extremely adept and skilled with treating me one way when he's around, and another way when he's not around. Or, they take stabs at me in such a way that I get it, but he doesn't catch it. I just have to accept that that's they way it'll always be.

My mother isn't always good with keeping her rages in, so I'll just say I think he has seen enough. But early on in our relationship, it caused a lot of tension because I would get frustrated and upset that he didn't see the way they treated me, or the way they buttered up to him to make themselves seem like the normal ones, and me like the sick one. It's all a big mind f*ck game to these sick people. Once I stopped looking for validation from him and stood in my truth, things got easier.

Plus thankfully these days more and more are coming out from professionals about these types of people. I'm sure my mother is so screwed up because when she was growing up, no one probably believed her about her mother. I feel badly for her, but it's still no excuse. She could've gone to therapy and worked on herself but instead she's just repeated the cycle.

Still, there needs to be more out there on the internet and from those in the psychology field. Everyone talks about partners who act this way, but there's not enough about parents who act this way. It really messes with us kids.

My first therapist, now deceased, told me he wanted to write a book called "breaking the chains". He was always impressed when he heard of people who didn't become like their abusers. My father was one such type, but unfortunately he was brainwashed by my mother and so he never stood up for us. I think part of him, too, just didn't want to see the truth about her, and admit that she wasn't the woman he thought he married. I forgive him for that. At least I'd like to think I have.

Maybe it's just a fantasy I have, but you know that scene in the movie The Shack, where he's about to apologize to his dad, and it's his dad who looks at him with strong love in his eyes and asks HIM for his forgiveness? That was most powerful scene in a movie I've ever seen. I'd like to think that if there is a heaven and one day I meet up with my dad again, he'll say to me that strongly and directly in my eyes, "PTF, I am sorry I didn't stand by you when mom lied about you. I didn't allow myself to see the truth. I know you were GOOD."

Wow! That is very interesting what it is like for your husband. I imagine he must've been relieved to find out he was adopted, which made it easier to detach even more. They didn't take it personally when he was by himself?

You are very lucky. I didn't have a friend like that. I had a lot of trouble explaining my family situation to people. I had a close friend in college who was a psychology major (and an ACOA, too) and he couldn't figure out what was going on at home, even though he knew there was something bad going on. He came over after one of my mother's rages but I had so much trouble putting into words what had happened. But he knew I was a good kid, but my mother was nice to him, so he couldn't figure it out. I wish I could pick his brain now and ask him if he was able to figure it out. He probably did, especially because of his own family life, but didn't actually say it. I think the beauty of our friendship was that we distracted each other from one another's pain that we couldn't really talk about.

I had another friend, also a psychology major, who asked me a ton of questions about my family life, but I answered them in hyper, babbly answers because again I had a lot of trouble communicating what was actually going on because nothing made sense. I was also terrified of telling anyone what was really going on. So I stuffed it down and kept up a facade like everything was okay.

I did get a good sense of love and nurturing from my dad, especially when I was a child, so I was able to have that mustard seed to love myself, others and be loved. But I don't think my dad ever knew the extent of what my mother was like with me or in public, because she was able to act differently around him. Or when he did try to stick up for himself to her, he'd always end up backing down. She controlled him just like she controlled her children. I finally learned that I had to figure out how to love myself, and how to find my strength from within. No one from the outside could do it for me.

Did you have trouble bonding to the eldest because he was a preemie because you were in fear he'd die or be sick and that you'd be blamed? I apologize if that's too personal, don't answer it if you're comfortable to. I had an acquaintance I took through the 12 steps who's a preemie and she always said she felt like that's why her mother never bonded to her. She also said that if her mother hadn't smoked like a chimney, she wouldn't have been a preemie. They blame each other.

It sounds like you have a very healthy amount of self awareness and are able to see the truth from the outside. That's great you are such a fantastic mother. I truly think people like us are able to be the best parents because of what we went through. And we could all learn a lot form your husband's calm and steadying personality! :-)