Wisconsin

There have been so many new folks lately who have clearly been upset and defensive at some of the responses they have received to their initial posts. I know we have talked in those threads a bit about how many of us reacted the same way when WE were new to these boards. I think it is so important that we share those things with our newer members.

I remember when I was new here, I did not get angry or defensive at the replies people posted to my threads. Oh no. I'm not sure if it showed in my messages way back then, but I had a terrible case of terminal uniqueness. I was so obnoxiously superior in my own mind to other people here. Convinced that while everyone meant well, I was so much different, my AH was so much different, and our situation was so much different. My AH didn't drink every day (newsflash: he has been drinking daily for over two years now, and whether or not he was a daily drinker was totally irrelevant). My AH was a loving and involved father (newsflash: his parenting skills have suffered greatly, and he has NEVER made any attempt, even while sober, to form any kind of relationship with my daughters). My AH went to work every day and his job performance did not suffer (newsflash: he still goes to work every day, and I do not believe his job performance suffers, but that is because 75% of the people in his industry themselves have serious substance abuse issues and they all work very, very hard to enable each other). There were 86433545 reasons why my AH was "better" than everyone else's qualifiers.

I was better, too, because my AH had been sober and in recovery when we were dating and got married. I honestly felt that because I hadn't married an active drinker, I was somehow less messed up, less co-dependent, than everyone else. It was very easy for me to sink into a victim mentality, because I believed this alcoholism had blind-sided me after we got married.

Seriously, it truly makes me laugh now to think about the attitudes I had back then.

Needless to say, it didn't take long for me to start identifying just how totally crazy I was (begging my AH not to leave me when he got furious with ME for discovering HE had gotten a woman's phone number in a bar). And over time, my "comparably OK" AH just got worse and worse (like everyone said he would) and continued to blow right past every single line I drew in the sand for myself (like everyone said he would).

For someone who thought she was "better" than other people here, those were very, very hard pills for me to swallow (especially because I always prided myself for not being snobbish or elitist). But accepting all of that, including the insanity of my attitude when I first came here, has been a huge part of my own recovery.

How did everyone else react in the first few weeks/months after they began posting here? What has everyone else learned about themselves from those reactions? I know I spent a lot of time beating myself up about not listening to people here sooner, but it's also so important to understand and acknowledge how important those early dynamics were for me in my own recovery...

dandylion

Wisconsin....I will share something with you....It is sometimes very hard for me to know how to respond to the defensiveness of some of the newcomers...especially if they come with a very "stonewalling" attitude. By that, I mean, when it is said: "I am going to continue to do the same things and I am never, ever, going to consider any other options no matter what!" "Give me success stories where he stopped drinking and everything became rosy..or I am going to leave this forum"! That sort of thing.
I try verrry hard to try to remember where they are coming from...and, to be patient...
but, I confess that it sometimes gets very frustrating to know just the right thing to say.....
Compish....?

dandylion

lillamy

Wisconsin, I could have written a lot of your post.

I joined SR and didn't like the responses I got so I stopped posting.
But I never stopped reading.

I came here, like I came to Al-Anon, wanting to get a tool kit for how to make my husband stop drinking. And I was irritated at the suggestions that I should work on me. I wasn't the one with the problem; he was -- and if he only quit drinking, we would live happily ever after.

I can also really relate to the "terminal uniqueness." I really thought we were "better" than those in other alcoholic marriages.

The thing that strikes me the most, eight years later, is how I was unable to see my own codependency and unhealthy behaviors. It was very similar to that of an addict: I had minimized my craziness, minimized the abuse I suffered. I was pretending that everything was largely fine and that the only little fly in the ointment was that my husband drank too much.

That's the part I have the hardest time forgiving myself for now. Not being able to see how sick and dysfunctional the whole situation was. It's screwed me up for sure -- but the worst part is what it did to my children.

Wisconsin

I totally understand, Dandylion. I think it's shows a tremendous amount of self-awareness that you know you struggle in that area. And there is nothing wrong, in my opinion, with bowing out of a thread and having other members whose frustrations aren't triggered so much in those types of early posts.

Bottom line: you personally have contributed a great deal to my recovery, and I am deeply grateful for that. If you're not the person greeting newcomers and being as gentle as possible with them...well, you have PLENTY more to offer them. I have always thought that you do an excellent job of helping posters keep the focus on themselves, rather than their qualifiers. I know I spent HOURS in my early days on SR detailing out every single little thing my AH did, and it was people like you who helped me to understand, over time, just how unhealthy that was and how much of a disservice I was doing to myself and my children by keeping my focus on my AH.

Wisconsin

((HUGS)) Lillamy...we really are recovery twinsies in many respects!

My heart aches for the reasons that brought us all here, but I thank my higher power EVERY DAY that I know you all, and that I know this place. Who knows where I would be now if you guys, and this place, hadn't helped me embrace my own recovery? So much of this experience is so terribly isolating, and breaking out of that isolation really was the first step for me toward getting better. I spent a lot of time wallowing in my own misery and embarrassment at what I had allowed my life to become. But the very first lesson I took away from this place was that I am NOT alone, and that in terms of good wishes, ESH and emotional support, we are on this roller coaster together and we will get out of the ride what we put into it.

ladyscribbler

By the time I registered here and started posting I had already left the relationship and was ready to start taking responsibility for my stuff.
So I try to remember the first time I ever found SR, a few years ago. I had Googled "How do I make somebody stop drinking?" Feel free to roll your eyes, lol. My ex was spending yet another night in jail and I was killing time online until his mom inevitably dropped him off to start the whole crazy merry go round again. I lurked awhile and read through some threads and cried and felt hopeless. Then I closed the page and didn't come back for two years, while I was doing a "trial separation" that ultimately turned out to be permanent.
I try to put myself back in the mindset that I had when I first lurked. That his drinking was THE PROBLEM with our relationship and if he quit then our lives would be almost perfect. It was my job, obviously, to fix him and make him get sober. Of course my relationship was different, we were unique and special, he was my soul mate and I could never abandon him when he needed me so much.
If people aren't ready there's not much to do except say my piece and step back. It is frustrating when someone seems so eager to dive headfirst into the same rabbit hole that I just spent years clawing my way out of. I come here to SR and put big orange traffic cones and hazard signs all around the rabbit hole and they ignore all of that and rush straight down into it.

lillamy

See, I wonder some days why I'm still here. I'm not the most senior member by a long shot, but I've seen people come, recover, and leave over the eight years I've posted here. And I'm not ready to leave yet.

Part of it is that I'm still codependent and doing things that may help other people makes me feel good about myself.

But a bigger part is that reading and posting here is like therapy. Every day, I stumble across a post that helps me get a step further. (Just call me a slow learner, OK? )

torquemax777

I didn't have that reaction initially, but from time to time since, (especially if my AH happens to be sober for a time) I have gotten "twinges" of the whole, "those long term members all just want everyone to leave their qualifiers!" But nearly immediately I tell myself, "no, that's not true, cuz they all say, " only YOU can decide when enough is enough. " besides, a person can glean a lot from just reading others experiences and having something in common. A person can just blow over the advice replies or threads if they are feeling particularly touchy about the topic of leaving for now. I do have to admit I seek out more posts and like starting threads of that are " less" likely to draw in advice replies. I like posts that are geared towards things that are almost humorous ( in a dark way) for example: I love the Quacker posts, the "does your A ever do.....such n such?" Those are my favorite, and seem to be a rare find. And I do love opinion poll threads like THIS one ! :-) my AH can't understand why I like to watch Dr. Phil ( he mocks him during his rants.) I tell him that I don't really ever watch it to see what Dr. Phil advises people to do, I watch it to see the guests stories and compare, contemplate, meditate, sympathize, more than I ever watch it to see what Dr. Phil thinks.

FireSprite

Awesome post.

My join date is May 2012 but I started lurking August 2011 a couple of weeks after my RAH came out about his secret drinking & had been attending AA for a few weeks. I was baffled about everything happening in my life & google led me here.

I spent all those months lurking & reading around ALL of the forums. It really helped to educate me, I was in the dark about so very much. I had a basic understanding of addiction, but codependency was totally new to me..... here I came expecting to find solutions to manage living with a recovering addict only to find that I might be in even greater need of recovery myself. It was incredibly humbling but also extremely freeing.

I also had a pretty good idea of the kinds of advice I would receive & which posters would shoot straight & which would deliver their advice a bit softer after all that time, lol, so I wasn't really surprised at any of the responses I've read to myself or others.

Eventually I felt that I needed to jump in & start posting & interacting in order to continue to progress in my own recovery.


Yes, I definitely relate to this... especially the farther I get in my own recovery. I just mentioned this very thing to another member a couple of weeks ago. I don't mean that in a superior way, it's like trying to describe the view from the top of the mountain to the person standing on the ground. You just can't yell loud enough across that much distance for everything to get through.

Wisconsin

Ladyscribbler, I think that the single biggest challenge I still have in my recovery is lingering thoughts of "if he would just quit drinking, everything would get better." A holdover from my old "I am more of a victim than other spouses of addicts because my AH was sober and in recovery when I dated and married him" ridiculousness. I gave up long ago on the idea that it is my job to fix him, but I still manage to work myself into quite a snit every now and again over how angry I am that he won't get help. Whenever I get bogged down in my feelings, I try to stick to the facts as much as I can. And when I write or type the facts out, in stark black and white, it is easier for me to acknowledge that the dynamic at this point is so damaged and so toxic, and there are so many reasons for that, that even if my AH were to quit drinking RIGHT NOW and re-join a recovery program, our relationship is too broken to fix. And once I made progress toward accepting that, it became a lot easier to detach from his choices.

PS--I was born and lived my first 8 years in Iowa.

Needabreak

Dandelion, I used to feel exactly the way you mention. I frequently see newbies write stuff here that is downright delusional, and it is so tempting to parse the logic out and refute some of the crazier thought processes.

But I used to be young like them -- would I have listened? Hell no. One has to be ready to hear wisdom and experience -- you can't cudgel them over the head with enlightenment. (Not that you do, of course!) I say my piece, or not, and then let it go. Whether people choose to listen is entirely up to them, as are the consequences that they encounter because of their actions and attachments.

Really, I know this is a supportive forum, and I've encountered some amazing wisdom here. But in the end, we are all responsible for our own choices. The consequences of those choices are how we learn. For me, seeing how people deal with those consequences is hugely enlightening. Some of these stories are like watching a trainwreck. You don't want to look, you know if you say anything you're going to get a written smackdown, but you know how it's going to turn out.

And it keeps me from regressing into my former delusional behavior.

hopeful4

Great post Wisconsin.

I think that people come here looking for a solution, and the solution they want is not even possible. Codependents come her. Codies are notorious for "fixing" things, including trying to fix other people. Many times this place is the first to make them realize that is not even possible. They are coming to look for a fix for the other person while we are telling them to not even try that, to fix themselves. It's a big, and sometimes bitter, pill for them to swallow.

I think there is a way to say it with love and respect, and those of us who have been here for a long time try to do that. We are not perfect, nor are we psychiatrists. I try to remember that we are here to support each other no matter what stage another is in their own recovery.

No lie, it is hard to see someone doing the same thing over and over and expect different results. Anyone else know what that is the definition of.....INSTANITY. True fact. The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. We know some of these people will never change, but we are anonymous people on a forum, it's not our life. Big, huge difference.

I appreciate this post very much. I think we all need to be humbled into remembering that when we ended up here it was because we were looking for help and support. That is what we need to offer.

XXX Love you guys!

dandylion

Wisconsin...thank you. And, thanks, also for this thread. It seems that many of us share the same feelings and frustrations.

I also think that you make a good point....that I could step back in some cases....and let some others pick up the "cause"....I need to remind myself of that...

Ladyscribbler....you are right...that so me will dive right straight back into the rabbit hole for another round (no matter what we try to do to dissuade them).....

To this point...I remember, one time, complaining to a psychiatrist that I was working with about a person that totally ignored my best efforts.....(the psychiatrist was a long recovering alcoholic).....and, he told me: "Your job is to carry the message...not to carry the man").

Also, I think it is another very good point that I sometimes forget....that people may keep reading when they stop posting.....

dandylion

Hawks

I love that "big orange traffic cones" line Lady Scribbler.

It's just as frustrating on the other side of the fence.

how's it going with your "killing yourself to live" no program... program there slick?

Well, I'm not sure I'm near dead enough yet, is it bad that I puked blood last night?

I'm going to say yes, but sounds like your not sure yet r

CAPTAINZING2000

I read what every one on a post has to say and value everyone's opinion.
It still boils down to what we will accept in our relationship with our spouses and or family members.

Wisconsin

You know, I totally did not start this thread intending for people to re-evaluate how they respond to new members. I think we all do a pretty good job of checking out of threads that we feel we cannot contribute to. I love the way these threads always give me attitudes and perspectives to think about.

Frankly, I was having quite a pity party for myself this morning, and wanted a place to remind myself of how far I've come, and how far we've all come, and how even though there are so many similarities in our various journeys, we all walk our paths differently and there is just so darn much I learn from you guys every single day. Hearing more about what we all did in our own early recoveries, and WHY we react the way we do now, helps me to expand my own recovery tool box.

Seriously, I feel a hundred million times better now than I did two hours ago. Thank you all for diving in and sharing!

SparkleKitty

I had quite a bit of recovery under my belt when I got here. My qualifiers were in my past. I came here a couple of days after my dog passed away. I don't even remember the search term that landed me here.

Five years of therapy got me to a better place, but two years on SR has taught me to articulate a lot of thoughts and feelings and realizations into a cohesive bundle. I feel like a major part of recovery is sharing your experiences with others, even if it does not 'feel' like it makes a big difference at the time. You never know when something you wrote three months ago will resonate with the OP, or someone else who stumbles onto that thread one way or another.

Dealing with reluctant newcomers is, for me, an exercise in creating reasonable expectations. I may WANT someone to make all the right decisions without any of the pain I had to go through to get to the same place, but it simply is not reasonable to expect that they will. So I do my best to offer something sage and keep an eye on my own triggers. With varying degrees of success, of course.

I am currently on the other side of this question, which is a unique and interesting experience. Last Monday I went back to my therapist to begin to address my compulsive overeating and other eating disorder-related behaviors. She gave me a book to read called Overcoming Overeating and I dove in head first. I started off completely embracing everything in it, thoroughly excited to start my recovery from this decades-old problem! I recognized myself on almost every page, and even experienced pride that because of my other recovery work, I had already come to some of the same conclusions and practiced some of the same tactics to change my behavior.

Then the book got tougher. It asked me to buy a full-length mirror. Um...okay? I guess. Where am I gonna put it, though? Fine. Whatever. Then it asked me to ditch my scale. MY SCALE? HOW WILL I KNOW IF I AM MAKING ANY PROGRESS??? HOW WILL I KNOW IF I AM FALLING APART??...okay. Okay. Breathe. You can do that. It says you don't have to get rid of it entirely, just stop using it. Hoo. Okay. Sure! Why not?

Then the book said to commit to never dieting again. But HEY! I already did that! I quit Weight Watchers three months ago! How awesome am I!!!??? Oh...wait, what? You mean continuing to track everything I eat and when in this notebook, and weighing in every Monday morning is just another way of dieting? Hunh. Well. Okay. I guess?

Now the book is telling me that in order to convince myself that my favorite foods will always be there for me, and train myself to stop judging myself about my eating habits, I have to stock my cupboards and shelves with copious amounts of all of my favorite foods at all times, and eat whatever I want whenever I want it.

What?

Hold the phone.

Even typing this out, I can feel the anxiety burning through me. I can't even fathom how that is anything but a complete disaster waiting to happen. I could barely even bring myself to tell my husband what the book said in case he for some crazy reason thought we should do this.

I'm not ready yet. I cry when I think about maybe one day being ready.

Doesn't mean I never will be. Doesn't mean people who have been through this shouldn't offer me their experience, even if it upsets me and makes me uncomfortable -- we all know, no one ever died from being uncomfortable.

So I guess I have a fresh new batch of empathy for those newbies who just want me to give them the magic formula for happiness -- the "hot new diet", if you will that change their shape and change their life. One way or another, about one hang-up or another, we are all learning that winning the lottery isn't a Plan. I am beginning to understand that the most important thing isn't how I feel about their situation or their attitude, but that they stick around long enough to see that their preconceived notions about what will fix their life may be off base. If we can accomplish that, I think we're doing the best we can.

Needabreak

"It still boils down to what we will accept in our relationship with our spouses and or family members."

That's precisely the issue for so many here though -- they won't accept their partner's addiction, but they won't let go either. They try and try and try to control it, and we all know how that story usually ends.....

Florence

I started posting because I wanted a road map -- if I do/say/think XYZ, HE will get better and we can have the life we were supposed to have. I was pregnant with DD3, my XAH had just relapsed again (to my knowledge) after purporting to be sober (today I question whether he quit at all) and my XAH was between rehabs #2 and #3 (of 4-5, depending on how you count).

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...s-relapse.html

In my mind, we were terminally different, smarter than the rest of you, and able to reason our way out of chronic addiction, so I cherry-picked what you said, especially as it related to HIM and how he should behave towards me, and was almost completely incapable of accepting responsibility and seeing my agency in the relationship. I was certain if I helped him set boundaries (ha) he would be able to stay away from the drink.

I frequently argued with the advice people gave to me. I thought they were mean to XAH for wanting him to deal with the natural consequences of his decisions. He wasn't able to make good decisions! I thought, so I'd make them for him!

What a disaster.

I keep writing here because having SR was monumental for me, and in some ways it still is. I feel like I read and write the way sober people must attend meetings -- to receive as much as I give back. Also, despite having left XAH in September of 2012, I still feel like I'm on the journey. For me, the larger question was not how to leave XAH, it was, "Why do I keep ending up in terrible relationships with toxic people, and how do I make sure to stop that from happening again?"

The short answer is that I had terrible boundaries, despite thinking I was a boundary master. I didn't know how to love myself and value my needs, and I was always looking to others, and other things, to fill those gaps. Shopping, drinking, looking perfect, appearing to have it all together while I was dying inside. Sometimes I thought what I needed was to isolate. I spent a lot of my youth in emotional chaos, unmoored from any healthy point or memory to jump off from.

I'm slowly figuring that out, keeping an eye on my mental health, re-thinking my family and what I want in my own life, and having faith in the power of patience and the power of waiting for the truth to reveal itself, without me running around like a crazy person trying to fix things without all the right tools or information. The truth will indeed reveal itself over time -- it always does. It just might not be on your timelines.

Florence

You know what else? I had to realize that we weren't special at all. His addiction followed -- and is following -- basically every trajectory ever mapped about alcoholism that's out there. My codependency followed the manual to a T. We were not special snowflakes that could figure this out with spunk and grit. It was bigger than us. I was a fart in a ******* windstorm.

Until I really, really got that, I was completely at the mercy of the disease.