FindingPeace1

Hey. I'm a daughter of an A and an exwife of one, too.

It's been 3 years and I am in a new relationship. We have just one day off of the weekend the same. The first date he slept over (too fast, I know!). Second date (a week later) he slept over. Third date (another week later) he slept over. We are planning on seeing eachother next weekend and he's driving to spend the night tomorrow (he's 2 hours away, but is a road warrior and doesn't mind it). Lots of talking on the phone. Long texts.

Pros? No addictions (that I can see), balance in his life, communication that is out of this world, affection, active lifestyle, friends, independence, and he's gorgeous. He is very very open and honest with his strengths and weaknesses and will answer any question thoughtfully. He can express his feelings, fears and hopes. He put himself in therapy over the grief/depression in losing a relationship (over attachment?) and is now seeming to get a lot out of CBT. He's super smart and thoughtful. Good relationship with his recent x. Good relationship with his parents. Respectful, kind, loves kids and critters. Sensual as all get out; holy cow! Similar world view, similar values. He has things to teach me.

Cons? On meds (for just 3 months) for on and off again depression (although I don't see any evidence as yet of depression), he's 44 and has never been married. Longest relationship 3 years. He's had a number of 2 year (or so) relationships, with a number of those being live in. There doesn't seem to be any pattern to the break ups. He is a people pleaser, I think, and has been treated poorly (not awfully, but not great) from partners and he has put up with it (tries too hard), so much so that he sold his house on the recommendation of a woman he was dating who SWORE she was leaving her husband for him. (Red flag!)
He moves too fast (he's told me he loves me week 3 & that he could see himself with me long term. He doesn't see his lean towards enmeshment, nor why that isn't good. I can see my own wanting to be over enmeshed, too.

All that being said, he's really great. Really wonderful...but I was married to a really wonderful guy that was also an A, so I don't fully trust myself. He has strengths my exA didn't have, which makes him look like a superhero.

I really like this guy. He has many wonderful qualities, although he seems be a codie. He hasn't heard the term, but is willing to explore the idea. He's open to everything. I could see myself with him.

Advice? Things to watch out for? Can someone lecture me on the problems with enmeshment and moving too fast? I feel like all my codie books are about dating an A and not about a new relationship and the pitfalls.

I feel like there are red flags and I don't want there to be. Another part of me feels like the issues are manageable if I can slow myself down.

Perspective, please?

Thanks!
fp

wiscsober

Hey FindingPeace1, not sure what you need answered. I would just go with your gut. Sounds like you might have a decent relationship here. With his honesty and his strengths seems like a nice guy. You know your boundaries. Go for it.

FindingPeace1

Okay, so, to make it be about ME now! LOL...
* I am perserverating on him.
* I slept with him on date 1
* I felt he texted too much that first week, but I didn't say anything
* I dropped my concerns about his moving too fast after date 2 was so great
* I heard him say I love you (then apologize that it was too early) and didn't say anything
* I have heard him talk kids and future (and apologize that it was too early) and didn't say anything
* I have gotten into the regular texts and calls throughout the day, even feeling a bit needy if I don't hear from him right away
* We spent a day in bed together (last weekend), even getting up to make lunch naked in the kitchen (behavior not typical of date 3).
* He requested to be friends on fb, I stalled, then said yes and now have posted pix of us, changed my status to "in a relationship" and changed my status on the dating site, too. He has posted pix of us.
* We have already discussed exclusivity while we date.

Soo...my work is my OWN practice in boundary setting to slow it down until I don't feel the clinginess in myself. To request he slow down, too. (How do you know what is appropriate?)
Does anyone have some good books about this issue for me?

k

Hammer

First GOOD for you.

After three years off, I hope you are getting some, and a people-pleaser sure beats an A in the sack any day, huh? You Go Girl.

But sure, you are correct -- the 2-3 year cycle on his priors, the instant I love you, the too much too quick . . . meds and therapy . . . . fits another profile (really, really strongly) . . .

One caution on the matching behavior/views . . . it is called mirroring. He is likely matching whatever he sees in you as him, and in some parts you may be looking in a mirror and ummm, falling a little bit in love with yourself. Just a caution.

In all that, not saying it is bad thing. But like picking out an A last time, it would be smart to know what you are buying. And that 2-3 years does seem to be his run time.

At any rate, you were asking about books to read --

Here is my read tonight -- Loving Someone With Borderline Personality Disorder.

LexieCat

I dunno, I have barreled into a couple of relationships that seemed to be moving too fast, and they were. From your description, this sounds like it could go either way. I don't see anything screaming "RUN!" but I share your concerns about a few of the things you mentioned.

I think your gut instinct to slow things down is a good one. Try postponing the "love and commitment" talk for a while. His reaction to your wish to slow things down might tell you a lot right off the bat--does he accept and respect your wishes, or does he become clingy/whiny/controlling in response? Those would make me leery of going any further with the relationship.

stella27

Firstly, how FUN! I love the giddiness and the attraction and how wonderful it feels to be adored and admired. After a life with an abusive A (I know yours wasn't but mine was), to be treated nicely, kindly and like I matter is like living a teen-age dream (to quite Katy Perry).

I don't know how to slow it down once sex is involved. I honestly don't. Because now you have some major hormones involved. And when the good stuff is good, then you only have the incentive to see him again. And SOON!

What everybody told me when I started dating? Just have fun with it. Enjoy him. Enjoy getting to know another human being. Enjoy being attractive and attracted. Enjoy going out as much as you enjoy staying in.

Just enjoy him. You don't have to marry his issues at this time. Just have fun. It sounds like you are.

funkynassau

He sounds like a good guy, so go with it for now. If you see anything negative you can decide what to do then. I thought my boyfriend was moving a bit fast when he told me he loved me after one week, but in the end all was fine, we've been married 31 yrs now and he's a great guy. So dont let that deter you for now. Sometimes relationships take off faster than they should, and you have seen that, so if you need to slow down a bit, you can do that. Enjoy this and see where it takes you!

Santa

The red flag for me would be that he's rushing. I would gently apply the brakes and gauge the amount resistance to that. (ie, How does he do when you attempt to set a boundary?) But then again, to paraphrase Aimee Mann, I'm now a freak who suspects I could never love anyone.

atalose

I think it helps to understand that codependent relationships just don’t happen with alcoholics and addicts. They happen with parents and children, co-workers, neighbors, in all walks of life.

It’s great that you are recognizing signs that are telling you to slow down. Listen to your instincts they are there for a reason – a guiding light of sorts.

I think the reason we don’t listen chose not to listen to that little voice is because we want happiness so much and we tend to start making those little excuses for other people’s behavior in order to continue with the relationship that is making us happy at the MOMENT.

It’s not a race, life is a journey and you both need to just allow life to flow without forcing anything too soon.

Enjoy it and try not to analyze every little thing. Focus on the big things – like if he shows up with a U-Haul attached to his car next time he visits…lol

lillamy

That lightning-fast approach would be a red flag to me as it is to you. He doesn't know you yet, so saying he loves you and talking about a future with you isn't really about YOU - it's about his dreams of who he wants you to be. The question is, what happens when you're NOT?

I don't say "run" - but I agree that slowing things down is a good idea - so that you don't find yourself living with him by the time you get to know each other.

It might just be that he sees things in you that are absolutely amazing (no surprise there - you are!) and wants to make sure to keep you "off the market" so to speak. Because he really does think this could lead somewhere. I would be observant on things like - what is his reaction if you don't respond to his texts for half a day? How does he react the first time he suggests getting together and you say "i'm going to Vegas with my girlfriends this weekend".

Moving very fast and immediately wanting exclusivity feels a bit controlling to me - but control is also a big bugaboo in my universe so I may see it where it's not. OTOH, if I'm sleeping with someone, I'd want exclusivity, too.

So I'd say have fun, enjoy, but be really observant on that tendency you (we) have to not speak up when something is bothering you...

Recovering2

Oh my. 3 dates total and he loves you. Talking kids and future? Honestly, what does he truly know about you at this point? Everyone is on their best behavior in those early dating days. I would see this as a red flag, and agree with lillamy. This is about him more than you. I would also wonder why, if he's so great, that he hasn't had a long term commitment at this stage. He sold his house for someone? He sounds like a true codie.

I think you have to set your boundaries from the beginning. It's waaaay easier to set them up front, than to try and set boundaries once you're already involved. If you don't like texting during the day when you're working, you need to express that. It's not about not wanting to hear from him, it's about focusing on your day. 3 dates and you're publishing that you're in a relationship...that's moving a little fast as well. I would suggest you slow down, and discuss that with him. If he reacts negatively, whines, or worse....gets even more clingy, then that's your sign. If he is truly in this for the long run, he'll respect your feelings and give you the space you need to explore this relationship.

Good Luck!

LexieCat

The last issue of the AA Grapevine (monthly magazine) was on "Dating in Recovery." In the Editor's intro to the issue he quotes an old joke: "Q: How can you tell two alcoholics are on their second date? A: The moving van in the driveway."

LaTeeDa

^^^^This is the important part of your post. You don't trust yourself. What can you do to work on that? If you can trust yourself to walk away, should you need to, then none of the other stuff matters.

P.S. Nice to "see" you again.

L

DreamsofSerenity

I just got out of a relationship with an A who I strongly suspect also had BPD. When I read your post, I thought you might have been dating him, except no one could honestly describe him as "gorgeous".

I also dated a highly seductive but horribly mean guy a long time ago who was actually diagnosed with BPD but rejected the diagnosis (of course). And I believed he knew what he was talking about (of course). All the same red flags you describe were in both of my relationships.

So I'm kinda wanting to scream "run". At the same time I recognize the fact that I'm wounded, jaded, and probably not the most objective person around on the subject of dating.

What I am seeing here is one giant red flag, like he is a torero waving it in front of him, and you are seduced by how sexy and brave he is behind it. I feel like I've been in your shoes, and the hurt I ended up experiencing was life altering. Granted both my guys were alcoholics so I do not know what a sober borderline is like. Hammer would be the expert on that one.

It sounds like you're pretty deep into this thing already. I really hope I am wrong, and that he turns out to be as wonderful as you are hoping he is. Just enjoy it for now while keeping your support system strong.

Tuffgirl

FP, I think you already see red flags but are enjoying this too much to call them for what they are.

And you know what? That's ok, for now. Enjoy it! It should be fun, right?

Just know that they are there, and you are questioning things because of knowing they are there, and don't think you don't trust yourself. You obviously do, or you wouldn't be here looking for feedback and some validation. From what you write in your initial post - you see it all for what it is and know it isn't really healthy. Maybe this guy is in your life for just a short term, and there is a lesson to be learned from it.

And know, like anything, more will be revealed.

P.S. I just stomped on the brakes with a guy who I said "I do like you" to and he started what I refer to jack-in-the-box texting. Every couple hours, bam a text appears. Every day for about 5 days. By the 5th day I was livid! Red flags waving away!!! So I ended it, right there. So that's what the opposite end looks like - hyper vigilance! Not sure which is worse! ; )

firebolt

Logically, it is moving too fast - but there is nothing wrong with embracing those crazy feelings to some extent. My parents just celebrated their 38th anniversary, and they got married 3 months after meeting - and have been mostly happy since. (to state the obvious, this is rare.)

Can you just be honest with him? Let him know you're loving it, but would like to get to know him better before you set a wedding date? lol

Anywho - I can identify with some of what you've mentioned about him, and you might consider it a small red flag. I am 36, and have had many 2 year relationships - mostly live in, also.

There are 2 reasons they never stuck: The 2 year mark seems to be about the point you really have gotten to know someone....and I just wasn't willing to stick any of them out through the downsides I saw to them. I expected A LOT from them, and in hindsight, their downsides seem silly at this point. #2 - When we went through the 2 year rough patch, I used it as my opportunity to shut down, and get out.

Every one of them were great men overall. No major issues. I was the one with issues, because I couldn't see myself being with someone for the long haul if they had things about them that bugged me after 2 years. Super selfish, codependent, and immature, I know...I relied on them for MY happiness.

Hope that helps - you have the opportunity right now to set the relationship standard for healthy boundaries, independence, and a mold for keeping both of your individuality in the beginning. Good luck - and enjoy it!!

FindingPeace1

Hi, everybody! <3

This is really thoughtful and helpful.

Hammer, when you say "fits another profile"...what do you mean?
There is some talk about BPD, what is that all about and why does that come up for you in what I am saying? Is it how happy and attentive and wonderful he is now and how he is obviously depressed sometimes? isn't that bipoloar sounding? What's the difference?

I love this, lillamy: "That lightning-fast approach would be a red flag to me as it is to you. He doesn't know you yet, so saying he loves you and talking about a future with you isn't really about YOU - it's about his dreams of who he wants you to be. The question is, what happens when you're NOT?" Because I do this. Fall in love with ideas and not reality and he obviously does, too. So this is a good reminder.

Recovering2, Yes! Everyone is on their best behavior at the start.

LexieCat, I'll see if I can find the Grapevine.

LTD, hugs! It's so nice to hear from you. Dead on, I say! It is the self trust. Okay.

Super helpful.

Breathe. Feel what's happening in my body and heart.

Slow down.

Pretty fun practice ground!

fp

sadielady

First, good for you for getting back in the game!

Second, I think you know what everyone is telling you about red flags, you know it in your gut even I'd you don't want to know about it, and that is why you posted about it on a site about recovery. I say that out of compassion and empathy, as I too am prone to throwing myself all in and I have fell hard for a few men who had those same rushing red flags, and I took them as passion and positive energy (especially when combined with all that self reflective stuff!!). But I think you might want to head your own instincts that have some level of concern and discomfort.

I'm finding both for myself, and for the men I hope to date (on a me-only hiatus now) that if we are comfortable with ourselves and healthy in our relationships, we don't NEED the intense affirmation that comes from rushing so fast. My therapist talks about how you never get to develop a healthy sense of each other I'd you accelerate so fast and, as she calls it "skipping steps" is always -- not sometimes, always -- a red flag.

I'm not saying run. But do focus in on what this is stirring up for you, why you have discomfort AND why you seem to really want and need this to be validated.

And talk to him.

He sounds like he has a lot of positives. You don't even know each other yet. See if he can slow down. His reaction will tell you a lot.

I really don't mean any of this to throw cold water on your fun (and you should have fun!!!) I say it in the spirit of this place where direct feedback can be helpful, I hope, as you feel though what you need.

Best, I will be thinking of you. This particular challenge is one I struggle with too.

FindingPeace1

Tuffgirl! Hugs hugs!
When I read and responded earlier your message didn't show up on my mobile.

Ahh, yes. I do see it. I do have red flags. I'm here.
You all help ground me.
I did some (obsessive) research on "moving too fast" and put together a checklist for myself. It might help others, too.

What “moving too fast” looks like and why that matters

1. Lack of seeing reality.
Are you overlooking red flags because you are so immersed in the good feelings? Are you being overly naïve, deliberately or inadvertently? Some of us fall for an IDEA of the person without knowing them. It feels like we love them, but we don’t actually know them very well. We end up having a relationship with an IMAGE rather than reality. Reality takes time to learn. If you are in a rush, you not in a relationship with reality, but your projection of it.

2. Lack of self-listening.
Can you still hear the little voice that has concerns? Do you even remember there is a little voice? Do you know what it is telling you? Even a great partner will have parts that give you pause to consider.

3. Lack of clear thought.
Does s/he make you feel emotionally drugged - woozy or fuzzy? Do you feel you can think through things clearly or are you in a heady, happy daze? Love can do this to us, but it is healthy to have one foot on the ground.
4. Lack of realism in thought. Do you feel it is “perfect” or you’ve found “the One” before you know her/him fully? Do you feel love before you know who it is you are loving? Are you rationalizing or making excuses for your or their behavior?

5. Lack of self-care and healthy protection.
Are you getting what you need? Do you know what that is? Are you taking time for yourself, your friends and your hobbies? Are you making wise and responsible choices? Rushing in has risks for your heart and stability. Are you moving so fast you don’t take time to make sure the relationship is growing appropriately and you are learning through time? Are you over-trusting without evidence or are you letting trust build with time?

6. Lack of self-awareness and groundedness.
Are you getting lost in the “other”? Are you aware of where you are in the relationship, how you feel and what you need? Are you aware of the feelings in your body? Are you aware of your emotions? Can you go inward and breathe and feel your body and heart when you are in their presence or are you swept up in them? Can you keep track of YOU in the face of them? Can you keep tabs on how you feel, not just how they make you feel?

7. Lack of boundaries.
Are you giving up time with others or ignoring responsibilities for the other? Can you say no? Do you or they feel somehow pressured or moving too fast, even in a passive way? Are you over-vulnerable and over-open with your body, your sexuality, your heart or your history because it feels so good to be so close? Are you resistant to spending less time, opening less, talking less, emailing less? Did the toothbrush get left at the other’s house after the first sleepover?

8. Lack of balance.
Are you attached to, or compulsive with or about, the other person – hearing from them, seeing them, getting messages from them? Are you spending time being with or thinking about the other obsessively? Does it feel loose, fun, easy and responsive or intense, directional, overpowering and needy? Are you getting wrapped up in the future and missing the now or, on the flip side, are you getting too lost in the now to see the big picture?

Why We Might Rush

1. The mind-blowing love drugs feel good! They are a siren song. We want to chase that feeling.
2. We feel needy, lonely or dependent, leading us to want happiness with desperation
3. Part of us NEEDS the intense affirmation
4. We have some addiction to the overstimulation of the intensity
5. We are afraid of the emptiness without those feelings
6. We don’t trust ourselves, others, and/or the universe to take care of us
7. We are afraid of being single
8. We are afraid of loss

LeSigh

Sticky alert for your checklist!