I apologize for flaming, acting self-righteous, and lying.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 395
I apologize for flaming, acting self-righteous, and lying.
The truth of the matter is that I find myself struggling. I had 3 1/2 years once and I picked up. When I picked up, I learned how to mitigate the alcoholic consequences, even self-remiss for weeks, and stay away from the cocaine.
However, after four years of basically removing myself from society (in order to mitigate the alcoholic consequences), and destroying everything beautiful I worked for, I found myself in unbearable pain and sought recovery again.
During this time, this is when I found this board. It helped me tremulously; being active, sharing my thoughts, and even helping others. I was very sincere about getting sober again, but after a month or two, I would find myself picking up again. It brought nothing, but self-inflicted pain and it solidified my resolve to get sober, yet it planted the seed of doubt in my head; the self-pity, am I worth it, its useless, etc.
Then I attack with more fervor, but stumbling again; leading to more resolve and self-righteousness and BS.
I remember arguing and slightly flaming on my last night of posting here, how I do have a mental defense against the first drink, but I don't. I really don't. My mind acts against me at times, trying to find way to get away with and have fun with it, when I can't. I can't get away with it or make it fun anymore.
However, I am an atheist, not by choice or self-will, but by humility and lack of knowledge. I am also in AA. So, having either to rely on a god that I simply cannot believe to stop me from picking up that first drink or be doomed to a miserable alcoholic death never sat well with me.
Despite all my knowledge, I sometimes do not have a sufficient mental defense against the first drink, but then I feel like I am screwed since I don't believe in God.
Anyways, I want to apologize. I thought jumping backing into recovery and being a "know it all" would work for me, but it didn't. I didn't want to be a "know it all", but that is how I sink my teeth into things. I am not the most humble person.
All I know is that I need recovery and like sharing here.
Thanks for reading,
Mike.
However, after four years of basically removing myself from society (in order to mitigate the alcoholic consequences), and destroying everything beautiful I worked for, I found myself in unbearable pain and sought recovery again.
During this time, this is when I found this board. It helped me tremulously; being active, sharing my thoughts, and even helping others. I was very sincere about getting sober again, but after a month or two, I would find myself picking up again. It brought nothing, but self-inflicted pain and it solidified my resolve to get sober, yet it planted the seed of doubt in my head; the self-pity, am I worth it, its useless, etc.
Then I attack with more fervor, but stumbling again; leading to more resolve and self-righteousness and BS.
I remember arguing and slightly flaming on my last night of posting here, how I do have a mental defense against the first drink, but I don't. I really don't. My mind acts against me at times, trying to find way to get away with and have fun with it, when I can't. I can't get away with it or make it fun anymore.
However, I am an atheist, not by choice or self-will, but by humility and lack of knowledge. I am also in AA. So, having either to rely on a god that I simply cannot believe to stop me from picking up that first drink or be doomed to a miserable alcoholic death never sat well with me.
Despite all my knowledge, I sometimes do not have a sufficient mental defense against the first drink, but then I feel like I am screwed since I don't believe in God.
Anyways, I want to apologize. I thought jumping backing into recovery and being a "know it all" would work for me, but it didn't. I didn't want to be a "know it all", but that is how I sink my teeth into things. I am not the most humble person.
All I know is that I need recovery and like sharing here.
Thanks for reading,
Mike.
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Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Washington
Posts: 456
Well AD, here's the deal. I tried everything. Scoffed at AA for the same reasons you do. The Higher power is something inside of you. Your own moral compass, if you will, a higher consciosness. It can be that still quiet voice inside you've tried to silence for years during abuse and rebellion. I struggle trying to understand it too but I cannot deny the results - I'm sober and I've turned my life completely around. I can look in the mirror again.
I hope you find peace and solice, even if you never find the meaning.
I hope you find peace and solice, even if you never find the meaning.
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Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 270
You got honest and can now stay that way, all good stuff.
Instead of worrying too much about what you don't believe, consider the conceptions you can accept and what you do believe. It's worth the time you spend with that search.
Don't consider the search over if you find you can't believe in a deity.
Instead of worrying too much about what you don't believe, consider the conceptions you can accept and what you do believe. It's worth the time you spend with that search.
Don't consider the search over if you find you can't believe in a deity.
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: In Today
Posts: 6,101
You do know that "G O D" can stand for:
Good Orderly Direction
Group Of Drunks
I know of many that have used the above and have worked their steps, until they could find a power greater than themselves that was of their understanding.
Being an Atheist is not an excuse to stay away from AA. I know of many over the years who have used AA, are in AA to this day and are Sober.
When we become 'willing' to go to any lengths to stay sober is when sobriety takes hold.
I would suggest you try some more AA meetings and try and have an open mind, listen for the similarities not the differences.
Keep posting please and let us know how you are doing as we do care.
Love and hugs,
Good Orderly Direction
Group Of Drunks
I know of many that have used the above and have worked their steps, until they could find a power greater than themselves that was of their understanding.
Being an Atheist is not an excuse to stay away from AA. I know of many over the years who have used AA, are in AA to this day and are Sober.
When we become 'willing' to go to any lengths to stay sober is when sobriety takes hold.
I would suggest you try some more AA meetings and try and have an open mind, listen for the similarities not the differences.
Keep posting please and let us know how you are doing as we do care.
Love and hugs,
Re-Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado
Posts: 7,583
Mike
Never noticed any flaming but I am not on here very regularly anymore and really only hang out in the "whiners" and "under one year" threads. I have 8 months today. I don't have any wisdom to impart, only that if you keep trying what you did before and it didn't work then, what are the odds?
I remember not getting past ten minutes awake and giving in and pouring that scotch in my first cup of coffee, and drinking all day swearing I would quit tomorrow. A major breakthrough for me was making it past that first cup without a shot in it, and feeling I had conquered my inability to quit, I had two shots in my next cup to celebrate my not drinking yet that morning and then drank all day.
That didn't work. Anything that depended on me alone and my willpower did not work. So I decided to check into the VA hospital and do an in hospital detox. I figured why waste a perfectly good detox on one substance only so I also quit smoking too. Made it 8 months so far. I feel it is pernmanent. I am simply refusing to ever drink or smoke again now while I am sober and won't "forget with drinking" like when I wasn't sober.
I did rehab, and quit it after two days then joined AA and they were a great bunch at my home group, but didn't get a sponsor or do the steps. I stopped going there twice a week after three months. I just felt no inclination to drink, nor any desire to word fence with myself. There is plenty wrong with me as far as my self discipline and being lazy some of the time. But there is also a lot right with me, and a lot more right than wrong. Sober.
I can live with that.
Do some thing/s different than what you've done in the past, since it didn't work then anyway right? 'Cause if you always do things the way you always did them won't you always get the same results?
Just like getting real and not behind a superior facade is probably getting you different results than you expected right?
Cut yourself a sprout bud. You are just a man like me. Neither of us is a super man. But we can be good men although imperfect as all are dont'cha think? I can live with that, and without alcohol and smokes even better.
I remember not getting past ten minutes awake and giving in and pouring that scotch in my first cup of coffee, and drinking all day swearing I would quit tomorrow. A major breakthrough for me was making it past that first cup without a shot in it, and feeling I had conquered my inability to quit, I had two shots in my next cup to celebrate my not drinking yet that morning and then drank all day.
That didn't work. Anything that depended on me alone and my willpower did not work. So I decided to check into the VA hospital and do an in hospital detox. I figured why waste a perfectly good detox on one substance only so I also quit smoking too. Made it 8 months so far. I feel it is pernmanent. I am simply refusing to ever drink or smoke again now while I am sober and won't "forget with drinking" like when I wasn't sober.
I did rehab, and quit it after two days then joined AA and they were a great bunch at my home group, but didn't get a sponsor or do the steps. I stopped going there twice a week after three months. I just felt no inclination to drink, nor any desire to word fence with myself. There is plenty wrong with me as far as my self discipline and being lazy some of the time. But there is also a lot right with me, and a lot more right than wrong. Sober.
I can live with that.
Do some thing/s different than what you've done in the past, since it didn't work then anyway right? 'Cause if you always do things the way you always did them won't you always get the same results?
Just like getting real and not behind a superior facade is probably getting you different results than you expected right?
Cut yourself a sprout bud. You are just a man like me. Neither of us is a super man. But we can be good men although imperfect as all are dont'cha think? I can live with that, and without alcohol and smokes even better.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Australia
Posts: 94
You just have to get the lightbulb to switch on. You've managed to quit before but you keep going back to using. To stop this you really have to drill it into yourself,that you can't use it casually, and it's going to wreck your life if you continue to relapse. Life can be so much better when you can appreciate it unclouded judgement, and it's nice to be able to remember the good times.
You will become more at peace with yourself if you can treat yourself and others with respect. Even if someone insults you, don't stoop to their level. Just have a laugh about it.
I think Atheists can have a happy and fulfilling life without God, but you sound like you need something in your life. It helps your mentality to believe that you're not alone out there. You're not alone really, there are millions of decent humans out there who wouldn't want you to hurt yourself as you have been doing. Sure there are some bad eggs but they're uneducated or are dealing with issues of their own. We can only hope they get the help to become better people.
You probably already know all of this, but I hope you get some insight from my post.
You will become more at peace with yourself if you can treat yourself and others with respect. Even if someone insults you, don't stoop to their level. Just have a laugh about it.
I think Atheists can have a happy and fulfilling life without God, but you sound like you need something in your life. It helps your mentality to believe that you're not alone out there. You're not alone really, there are millions of decent humans out there who wouldn't want you to hurt yourself as you have been doing. Sure there are some bad eggs but they're uneducated or are dealing with issues of their own. We can only hope they get the help to become better people.
You probably already know all of this, but I hope you get some insight from my post.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 395
Originally Posted by laurie6781 
You do know that "G O D" can stand for:
Good Orderly Direction
Group Of Drunks
I know of many that have used the above and have worked their steps, until they could find a power greater than themselves that was of their understanding.
Being an Atheist is not an excuse to stay away from AA. I know of many over the years who have used AA, are in AA to this day and are Sober.
When we become 'willing' to go to any lengths to stay sober is when sobriety takes hold.
I would suggest you try some more AA meetings and try and have an open mind, listen for the similarities not the differences.
Keep posting please and let us know how you are doing as we do care.
Love and hugs,
Good Orderly Direction
Group Of Drunks
I know of many that have used the above and have worked their steps, until they could find a power greater than themselves that was of their understanding.
Being an Atheist is not an excuse to stay away from AA. I know of many over the years who have used AA, are in AA to this day and are Sober.
When we become 'willing' to go to any lengths to stay sober is when sobriety takes hold.
I would suggest you try some more AA meetings and try and have an open mind, listen for the similarities not the differences.
Keep posting please and let us know how you are doing as we do care.
Love and hugs,
Becoming willing does not work either. I wished it did, but I find myself drinking against my will all too often.
Simply finding a HP or a God of your understanding doesn't work for many of us. And the evidence is the pile of dead alcoholics at our feet.
However, I do need to keep on trying. I do need to find a spiritual remedy.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 395
Originally Posted by Itchy
Do some thing/s different than what you've done in the past, since it didn't work then anyway right? 'Cause if you always do things the way you always did them won't you always get the same results?
I need to sincerely question my own thinking, even on the most minute details.
Operating with faulty is something I need to learn how to cope with. I do see the world in distortions all too much, regardless of how many people tell me how perceptive I am.
I need to challenge my own thinking and emotions.
P.S. I don't flame, but I can act like a self-righteousness a-hole at times. Whether it manifests on the outside or not is irrelevant.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: San francisco,ca
Posts: 112
A lot of people go to aa feeling like you do about the "higher power" concept, myself included. I didn't think I was going to be able to swallow that pill.
My higher power ended up being what stpete described. Remember, your higher power can be anything.
If you read step two in the 12step book, I think you might get a different prespective on the whole thing. Some people have the idea that a "higher power" has to be some type of grand spiritual entity, but it does not.
This is one of those things in aa that aventualy resolves itself with time. Remember that aa does not require you to beleive in anything. However you do have to be open minded enough to the point where the idea of you beleiving in something is a possibility.
My higher power ended up being what stpete described. Remember, your higher power can be anything.
If you read step two in the 12step book, I think you might get a different prespective on the whole thing. Some people have the idea that a "higher power" has to be some type of grand spiritual entity, but it does not.
This is one of those things in aa that aventualy resolves itself with time. Remember that aa does not require you to beleive in anything. However you do have to be open minded enough to the point where the idea of you beleiving in something is a possibility.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: San francisco,ca
Posts: 112
Sorry, I only read your first post. It seems like you've been in aa for a while. Maybe you should try a few more sponsors. I've gone through 4, and only one seemed like he could really exsplain the steps to me.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,095
Mike,
I've read your posts with some curiosity the past few months, and even 'discussed' a few of the more contentious points with you.
After numerous failures at staying sober, including doctors, drugs, counselors, jail, fear, willpower, self-knowledge,outpatient treatment, rehab, and AA without God, I came to a point of desperation and hopelessness. And somehow, I knew that I lacked the power to stay sober, and that some other power was going to be required.
That didn't please me much, because I had been a life-long staunch atheist that mocked religion every chance I got. The idea that I needed to have faith and trust in a higher power seemed impossible.
Fortunately, I found a sponsor in AA that stuck to the BB. When we got to Step 2, we looked at the essential requirements. 'Do I know believe, or am I even willing to believe in a power greater than myself'?
Well, I didn't believe, but I was willing to believe. I could move forward from that starting point. The rest of the Steps brought me into conscious contact with that power.
I've read your posts with some curiosity the past few months, and even 'discussed' a few of the more contentious points with you.
After numerous failures at staying sober, including doctors, drugs, counselors, jail, fear, willpower, self-knowledge,outpatient treatment, rehab, and AA without God, I came to a point of desperation and hopelessness. And somehow, I knew that I lacked the power to stay sober, and that some other power was going to be required.
That didn't please me much, because I had been a life-long staunch atheist that mocked religion every chance I got. The idea that I needed to have faith and trust in a higher power seemed impossible.
Fortunately, I found a sponsor in AA that stuck to the BB. When we got to Step 2, we looked at the essential requirements. 'Do I know believe, or am I even willing to believe in a power greater than myself'?
Well, I didn't believe, but I was willing to believe. I could move forward from that starting point. The rest of the Steps brought me into conscious contact with that power.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 4,682
With regard to the HP/God thing i think it is easy to give the impression that it is a big deal, as if the first 3 steps of AA are actually done in a sit down and analyse, then make an informed decision way...i'm sure i am not the only one that got to AA hopeless and desperate ready for the end, at that stage the first 3 steps were as follows:
Sponsor: Do you believe that you are powerless over alcohol and your life has become unmanageable?
Me: Well yeah it sure looks that way:-(
Sponsor: Are you willing to believe that a power greater than you can restore you to sanity?
Me: I don't know, did it work for you
Sponsor: Well i am 24 years sober and happy and yes i know it is true
Me: Cool then i believe it too
Sponsor: Are you ready to make a decision to turn your life and your will over to God as you understand him
Me: Will that get me sober and give me a life like yours?
Sponsor: Yes
Me: Then yes i will make that decision now although i don't understand what that really means
Sponsor: You don't need to, let's start step 4
ME: Ok, cool
How difficult is that? That took about 20 mins max over coffee...then the real work started which allowed me to recover from alcoholism...
I appreciate that a lot of people are not really hopeless and desperate enough to do this at the time and still have the delusion that they can fix it by themselves but feel that these first 3 steps are so easy to "work"...either a person has had enough or they haven't, if you have you will do anything, if you haven't you won't...before that point of being willing to go to any lengths it is not that the sponsor is having to explain the first 3 steps, what they are actually doing is trying to talk an alcoholic into why they should get sober and sell them the benefits which will never work until the alcoholic is ready, and can actually backfire and then the alcoholic closes the door on AA as a load of baloney IMO...
Sponsor: Do you believe that you are powerless over alcohol and your life has become unmanageable?
Me: Well yeah it sure looks that way:-(
Sponsor: Are you willing to believe that a power greater than you can restore you to sanity?
Me: I don't know, did it work for you
Sponsor: Well i am 24 years sober and happy and yes i know it is true
Me: Cool then i believe it too
Sponsor: Are you ready to make a decision to turn your life and your will over to God as you understand him
Me: Will that get me sober and give me a life like yours?
Sponsor: Yes
Me: Then yes i will make that decision now although i don't understand what that really means
Sponsor: You don't need to, let's start step 4
ME: Ok, cool
How difficult is that? That took about 20 mins max over coffee...then the real work started which allowed me to recover from alcoholism...
I appreciate that a lot of people are not really hopeless and desperate enough to do this at the time and still have the delusion that they can fix it by themselves but feel that these first 3 steps are so easy to "work"...either a person has had enough or they haven't, if you have you will do anything, if you haven't you won't...before that point of being willing to go to any lengths it is not that the sponsor is having to explain the first 3 steps, what they are actually doing is trying to talk an alcoholic into why they should get sober and sell them the benefits which will never work until the alcoholic is ready, and can actually backfire and then the alcoholic closes the door on AA as a load of baloney IMO...
Member
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: I'm exactly where I should be.
Posts: 1,889
I think you answered your own question...and I quote "I do need to find a spiritual remedy." You don't have to have a GOD to be sober. If that were the case there would be many unsuccessful people out there.
My power is within me. A strength in my mind and in my heart that commits to my desires. That helps me from within to gain the knowledge of right and wrong...also know as 'the gut feeling'. I have two voices...the alcoholic voice that reminds me I'm an alcoholic and I can drink very well. Then there's the gut feeling voice that says 'you know where it's lead you. You know where your path will go if you drink'. Generally speaking your gut feeling also known as your conscious is 99.999999999% right all of the time.
I don't always agree with the prayers and god stuff in AA but there is always something I can get out of the meeting that feeds my soul. One is the feeling that I am not alone.
I was also thinking the other day about the serinity prayer...Grant me the serenity to accept the things I can not change.Wale, I think...I can change anything that affects my life...and if I can't change the situation I can change my thinking about the situation so I'm not all up in agreement about this prayer thing either.
You have to pull out the straws that you can work with to make this sobriety thing happpen for good.
My power is within me. A strength in my mind and in my heart that commits to my desires. That helps me from within to gain the knowledge of right and wrong...also know as 'the gut feeling'. I have two voices...the alcoholic voice that reminds me I'm an alcoholic and I can drink very well. Then there's the gut feeling voice that says 'you know where it's lead you. You know where your path will go if you drink'. Generally speaking your gut feeling also known as your conscious is 99.999999999% right all of the time.
I don't always agree with the prayers and god stuff in AA but there is always something I can get out of the meeting that feeds my soul. One is the feeling that I am not alone.
I was also thinking the other day about the serinity prayer...Grant me the serenity to accept the things I can not change.Wale, I think...I can change anything that affects my life...and if I can't change the situation I can change my thinking about the situation so I'm not all up in agreement about this prayer thing either.
You have to pull out the straws that you can work with to make this sobriety thing happpen for good.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: the high desert
Posts: 887
Originally Posted by Antiderivative
However, I do need to keep on trying. I do need to find a spiritual remedy.
Your attitude, not your aptitude, will determine your altitude
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oxnard (The Nard), CA, USA.
Posts: 13,964
As an atheistic inclined person I found recovery outside of AA. SMART is a great program for those that may or may not have God/HP beliefs.
I see my alcoholism not as a spiritual illness but as a behavioral disorder. When I put all my thinking aside and just work on changing my behavior...I always get fast results. Then after some sober time I find it easier to aline my beliefs with the results of my changed behavior.
I see it this way; I cant think my way into a new behavior, I have to actually have to practice new behavior.
I see my alcoholism not as a spiritual illness but as a behavioral disorder. When I put all my thinking aside and just work on changing my behavior...I always get fast results. Then after some sober time I find it easier to aline my beliefs with the results of my changed behavior.
I see it this way; I cant think my way into a new behavior, I have to actually have to practice new behavior.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 395
Originally Posted by keithj
Fortunately, I found a sponsor in AA that stuck to the BB. When we got to Step 2, we looked at the essential requirements. 'Do I know believe, or am I even willing to believe in a power greater than myself'?
Well, I didn't believe, but I was willing to believe. I could move forward from that starting point. The rest of the Steps brought me into conscious contact with that power.
Well, I didn't believe, but I was willing to believe. I could move forward from that starting point. The rest of the Steps brought me into conscious contact with that power.
I can either accept this fact or not. Sometimes I feel like an outsider, but tradition 3 keeps reminding me that I am not.
So, I need to learn how to deal with the mild evangelism I find in the rooms or not. The evangelism does not make me pick up. In fact, after 3 1/2 years, I picked up and my faith in a God was the strongest. Someone presented me with the works of Emmet Fox and I readily ate up that new age Christianity BS, but it didn't work.
It sucks realizing that a HP won't save you from yourself, especially when people espouse this to you. It sucks being at contention with a program that you love, but I sometimes I cannot handle those mild contentions.
However, those contentions do not take me out. I have a mind that, still to this day, that will rationalize away drinking. I try to find out:
1. How can I get away with it.
2. How can I have fun with it.
It truly sucks when you find yourself picking up again when you know you have exhausted both of those options.
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Dancing in the Light
Posts: 61,518
Welcome back, AD!
I'm glad you posted honestly about your feelings.
I'm not an AA person, but I know for certain I had to find a Spiritual connection for me to begin to recover. I had to find a purpose for being here on this earth. When I began recovery, I had let go of all the 'fake' parts of my life and I had to look inward to find a reason for being here and for getting well.
I'm glad you posted honestly about your feelings.
I'm not an AA person, but I know for certain I had to find a Spiritual connection for me to begin to recover. I had to find a purpose for being here on this earth. When I began recovery, I had let go of all the 'fake' parts of my life and I had to look inward to find a reason for being here and for getting well.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Posts: 645
Mike,
My suggestion to you is that you put aside everything you know or think you know about AA, the program of AA, the steps, the concept of a Higher Power, and the Big Book. Find a sponsor who works the steps from the Big Book and follow his direction.
I didn't much like my choices either -- go on to the bitter end or accept spiritual help. But I had tried everything, nothing else had worked and I didn't want to die. I was in enough fear, pain and desperation that I was willing to do anything.
Surrender for me has been a process. It has meant suspending my ideas, my thoughts and my judgments. It has meant taking action. It has meant taking actions that I didn't want to take or even like taking. It has meant taking actions that go against "my best" thinking, logic and reasoning. It has meant taking actions that have caused me emotional discomfort. It has meant taking action that I would have, in the past, openly rebelled against and refused to take. Each action that I take, is, in itself, a surrender.
I can't drink and I can't not drink. A surrender, I let go of all efforts and all attempts to try not to drink including my thinking that self-knowledge and willpower would solve my problem. I have lost all power, choice and control over my drinking. A surrender, I let go of the idea that I was just powerless after I drank. I accept that I am powerless before I drank (when sober) as well. I accept powerlessness as absolute, complete and total.
I fully concede to my innermost self that I am alcoholic. A surrender, I know in my heart and in my soul (no reservations) that I am alcoholic. That knowledge is no longer just an intellectual agreement. My hard fought and long held walls and barriers to inner knowing come tumbling down. That knowing now permeates into the very core of my being. I go back to regularly attending AA meetings. A surrender, I vowed to myself that I would never go back into the rooms of AA.
I make a decision and a commitment that I will work all twelve steps of the AA program. A surrender, I had no intention whatsoever of working any of the steps. I let go of what I want and what I said I would or wouldn't do. I let go of all of my preconceived notions as to what will or will not work. I ask someone to sponsor me who works a solid AA program and works the steps from the Big Book. A surrender, I previously avoided (like the plague) anyone who knew the Big Book well enough to quote page numbers.
I take my sponsor's directions -- yes, directions, not suggestions -- and I follow them to the letter without argument, debate, or objection. Tell me what I need to do, and I'll do it. A surrender, I let go of the idea that the steps are merely suggestions and I let go of the idea that I can just take what I want and leave the rest. I let go of the idea that I know best, and I let go of following my own direction and counsel. I do the work, and I let go of the results. A surrender, before I would have tried to/wanted to control it all, from planning to implementation to outcome.
And so it goes. I am getting the idea that the spiritual path of AA will mean a lifetime of continuing action and a lifetime of continuing surrenders.
Mike, you wrote: "I have been in AA for years, and simply finding a HP and surrendering does not work for me."
I would suggest that right now you not worry about finding a Higher Power and not worry about surrendering. Finding a Higher Power comes as a result of working the steps, not as a condition to working the steps. And surrendering comes as a result of taking action, not as a result of reading and discussing or thinking and debating.
If you work the steps, you will find a Higher Power (as a result). If you work the steps, you will find that you have surrendered (again as a result).
Mike, you wrote: "Becoming willing does not work either. I wished it did, but I find myself drinking against my will all too often."
I would suggest to you, Mike, that you are confusing the concept of "being willing" with that of "being powerless". Alcoholics drink against their will because they are powerless over alcohol. That is what an untreated alcoholic does, drink, whether they want to or not.
Being willing or becoming willing is an attitude, certainly. But more than that, being willing or becoming willing is an action. How does anyone know if another person is "being willing" or "becoming willing"? By what they do. By the actions they take.
It sounds as if you have some decisions to make. And some actions to take.
Susan
My suggestion to you is that you put aside everything you know or think you know about AA, the program of AA, the steps, the concept of a Higher Power, and the Big Book. Find a sponsor who works the steps from the Big Book and follow his direction.
I didn't much like my choices either -- go on to the bitter end or accept spiritual help. But I had tried everything, nothing else had worked and I didn't want to die. I was in enough fear, pain and desperation that I was willing to do anything.
Surrender for me has been a process. It has meant suspending my ideas, my thoughts and my judgments. It has meant taking action. It has meant taking actions that I didn't want to take or even like taking. It has meant taking actions that go against "my best" thinking, logic and reasoning. It has meant taking actions that have caused me emotional discomfort. It has meant taking action that I would have, in the past, openly rebelled against and refused to take. Each action that I take, is, in itself, a surrender.
I can't drink and I can't not drink. A surrender, I let go of all efforts and all attempts to try not to drink including my thinking that self-knowledge and willpower would solve my problem. I have lost all power, choice and control over my drinking. A surrender, I let go of the idea that I was just powerless after I drank. I accept that I am powerless before I drank (when sober) as well. I accept powerlessness as absolute, complete and total.
I fully concede to my innermost self that I am alcoholic. A surrender, I know in my heart and in my soul (no reservations) that I am alcoholic. That knowledge is no longer just an intellectual agreement. My hard fought and long held walls and barriers to inner knowing come tumbling down. That knowing now permeates into the very core of my being. I go back to regularly attending AA meetings. A surrender, I vowed to myself that I would never go back into the rooms of AA.
I make a decision and a commitment that I will work all twelve steps of the AA program. A surrender, I had no intention whatsoever of working any of the steps. I let go of what I want and what I said I would or wouldn't do. I let go of all of my preconceived notions as to what will or will not work. I ask someone to sponsor me who works a solid AA program and works the steps from the Big Book. A surrender, I previously avoided (like the plague) anyone who knew the Big Book well enough to quote page numbers.
I take my sponsor's directions -- yes, directions, not suggestions -- and I follow them to the letter without argument, debate, or objection. Tell me what I need to do, and I'll do it. A surrender, I let go of the idea that the steps are merely suggestions and I let go of the idea that I can just take what I want and leave the rest. I let go of the idea that I know best, and I let go of following my own direction and counsel. I do the work, and I let go of the results. A surrender, before I would have tried to/wanted to control it all, from planning to implementation to outcome.
And so it goes. I am getting the idea that the spiritual path of AA will mean a lifetime of continuing action and a lifetime of continuing surrenders.
Mike, you wrote: "I have been in AA for years, and simply finding a HP and surrendering does not work for me."
I would suggest that right now you not worry about finding a Higher Power and not worry about surrendering. Finding a Higher Power comes as a result of working the steps, not as a condition to working the steps. And surrendering comes as a result of taking action, not as a result of reading and discussing or thinking and debating.
If you work the steps, you will find a Higher Power (as a result). If you work the steps, you will find that you have surrendered (again as a result).
Mike, you wrote: "Becoming willing does not work either. I wished it did, but I find myself drinking against my will all too often."
I would suggest to you, Mike, that you are confusing the concept of "being willing" with that of "being powerless". Alcoholics drink against their will because they are powerless over alcohol. That is what an untreated alcoholic does, drink, whether they want to or not.
Being willing or becoming willing is an attitude, certainly. But more than that, being willing or becoming willing is an action. How does anyone know if another person is "being willing" or "becoming willing"? By what they do. By the actions they take.
It sounds as if you have some decisions to make. And some actions to take.
Susan
Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: toronto canada
Posts: 181
somebody posted this a 10 truths I have learned about recovery and this disease of addiction
I have been around the program for a few 24hrs and there are some undeniable truths about this disease and recovery that I did not want to accept when I first came around, although I heard it at almost every meeting in some form. Maybe they can help someone.
1. You will not quit until you have had enough. This one sounds so harsh, but like the book states "It finally beat us into a state of reasonableness" I know for this alcoholic it took every treatment center, hospital bed, DUI, pint of blood I threw up, etc to earn my plastic chair.
2. The booze\drugs are not the real problem. No one who has any respect for themselves pounds poisonous chemicals into their body until they slip into oblivion. The booze\drugs were the solution, at least for a while. Booze\drugs could help us escape our miserable existence filled with unhappiness, all derived due to selfishness and self-centeredness.
3. The same man\woman will drink again. If putting down the booze was enough, there would be no need for the 12 steps, meetings, sponsors, or a big book. It is like a knocking rod in your engine. A can of STP oil treatment will quiet the knock for a week or so, but the rod is still bent. A spiritual awakening is required to fix the real problem.
4. No human power could have relieved my alcoholism. Lord knows everyone tried. Judges, lawyers, girlfriends, etc. I have spent my life placing dependence on other people. But because they are human, they will always fail us, just like we failed them. This is where a power greater than myself is required.
5. This is an inside problem with no outside solution. I have always thought, if just had the right girlfriend, band, job, income, blah, blah, then I would not need to drink. I was trying to fill inside holes with outside things. Healing starts on the inside when we work steps two and three. There is a sufficient substitute. It is the fellowship.
6. I am powerless over alcohol, and pornography, and Ben and Jerry’s, and caffeine, etc. My disease changes clothes all the time. The good news is that I recognize it. Look, if it feels good, taste good, looks good, I want more of it. Moderation is not in my vocabulary. But I have tools today that I can use. Sponsor, prayer, meetings, talking to another alcoholic.
7. My life is unmanageable. It does not say my hair is unmanageable, or my checkbook is unmanageable. My life in unmanageable. This means everything. I finally got the guts to fire myself from management and made sure I was marked "no re-hire!" This was really tough to accept. I am so damn self sufficient, enough to get me killed.
8. It is not the caboose on the train that kills you. The craziest thing I have ever done was done sober, and that was to pick up the first one. After the first one, it is two, three, and the next thing you know ol Jed's a millionaire. It is alcoholism, not alcoholwasm.
9. I cannot think myself out of this disease. It says this many times in the big book. My sponsor gave me a test. It goes like this:
Self knowledge avails me:
A). Everything I have ever wanted.
B). Half the s#it I needed.
C). Jack s*it.
Being too smart for this program will get you killed.
10. You must give it away to keep it. Huh? I hated these little quips, like surrender to win!. Arggg. But this is one of the greatest gifts of the spiritual awakening. When I work with other alcoholics, I feel whole, useful, and like I am doing God's work. It is indescribable. When I first heard this I said "hooey"! Man was I wrong.
Of course, there is sooooo much more. I just had to get that out. Thanks for letting me share.
__________________
"And the truth shall set you free, but first it will tick you off"
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Old 12-27-2007, 10:08 AM #2 (permalink)
Treasure2Find
Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 226
Whawhile back ..it sez it all
I have been around the program for a few 24hrs and there are some undeniable truths about this disease and recovery that I did not want to accept when I first came around, although I heard it at almost every meeting in some form. Maybe they can help someone.
1. You will not quit until you have had enough. This one sounds so harsh, but like the book states "It finally beat us into a state of reasonableness" I know for this alcoholic it took every treatment center, hospital bed, DUI, pint of blood I threw up, etc to earn my plastic chair.
2. The booze\drugs are not the real problem. No one who has any respect for themselves pounds poisonous chemicals into their body until they slip into oblivion. The booze\drugs were the solution, at least for a while. Booze\drugs could help us escape our miserable existence filled with unhappiness, all derived due to selfishness and self-centeredness.
3. The same man\woman will drink again. If putting down the booze was enough, there would be no need for the 12 steps, meetings, sponsors, or a big book. It is like a knocking rod in your engine. A can of STP oil treatment will quiet the knock for a week or so, but the rod is still bent. A spiritual awakening is required to fix the real problem.
4. No human power could have relieved my alcoholism. Lord knows everyone tried. Judges, lawyers, girlfriends, etc. I have spent my life placing dependence on other people. But because they are human, they will always fail us, just like we failed them. This is where a power greater than myself is required.
5. This is an inside problem with no outside solution. I have always thought, if just had the right girlfriend, band, job, income, blah, blah, then I would not need to drink. I was trying to fill inside holes with outside things. Healing starts on the inside when we work steps two and three. There is a sufficient substitute. It is the fellowship.
6. I am powerless over alcohol, and pornography, and Ben and Jerry’s, and caffeine, etc. My disease changes clothes all the time. The good news is that I recognize it. Look, if it feels good, taste good, looks good, I want more of it. Moderation is not in my vocabulary. But I have tools today that I can use. Sponsor, prayer, meetings, talking to another alcoholic.
7. My life is unmanageable. It does not say my hair is unmanageable, or my checkbook is unmanageable. My life in unmanageable. This means everything. I finally got the guts to fire myself from management and made sure I was marked "no re-hire!" This was really tough to accept. I am so damn self sufficient, enough to get me killed.
8. It is not the caboose on the train that kills you. The craziest thing I have ever done was done sober, and that was to pick up the first one. After the first one, it is two, three, and the next thing you know ol Jed's a millionaire. It is alcoholism, not alcoholwasm.
9. I cannot think myself out of this disease. It says this many times in the big book. My sponsor gave me a test. It goes like this:
Self knowledge avails me:
A). Everything I have ever wanted.
B). Half the s#it I needed.
C). Jack s*it.
Being too smart for this program will get you killed.
10. You must give it away to keep it. Huh? I hated these little quips, like surrender to win!. Arggg. But this is one of the greatest gifts of the spiritual awakening. When I work with other alcoholics, I feel whole, useful, and like I am doing God's work. It is indescribable. When I first heard this I said "hooey"! Man was I wrong.
Of course, there is sooooo much more. I just had to get that out. Thanks for letting me share.
__________________
"And the truth shall set you free, but first it will tick you off"
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Old 12-27-2007, 10:08 AM #2 (permalink)
Treasure2Find
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 226
Whawhile back ..it sez it all
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