I apologize for flaming, acting self-righteous, and lying.
Guest
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 270
Still looks like what you want to talk about is what you can't believe in. I could do likewise staying fixed on it and make zero progress because what I don't believe is a long list and what I do believe turned out to be a short list, true only for myself. Why would I pay too much attention to the stuff that is meaningless to me that others believe, the stuff that does me no good at all.
A list of that is uninteresting, it's just me talking about all the nothings I cannot be argued into believing. It's a variety of intellectual laziness.
Personally I don't care what you cannot believe is true, and it shouldn't be the least important to you either.
That's too easy and demands no searching, or self-honesty.
A list of that is uninteresting, it's just me talking about all the nothings I cannot be argued into believing. It's a variety of intellectual laziness.
Personally I don't care what you cannot believe is true, and it shouldn't be the least important to you either.
That's too easy and demands no searching, or self-honesty.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 861
Welcome back! I can relate to what you write. I love some things about AA and dislike other aspects. Same is true for SMART and WFS. As for AA, I did find one person who I agree with and that helps a lot. But I still feel at odds with AA (or much of it), yet I go to select meetings and love them. I have not figured out what to do with that conflict.
I do find individual counseling very helpful. And I just started going to a LifeRing meeting and appreciate that they don't have a specific program. I also go to WFS meetings (and occasionally SMART meetings).
I wish I had great ideas to help you. I really don't know either!
I do find individual counseling very helpful. And I just started going to a LifeRing meeting and appreciate that they don't have a specific program. I also go to WFS meetings (and occasionally SMART meetings).
I wish I had great ideas to help you. I really don't know either!
Snarf Snarf
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: ATL
Posts: 835
Maybe you could work on that "humble" thing you mentioned, and perhaps the "know-it-all" stuff as well. To be perfectly honest, I've always thought, and sometimes been told, that I'm smarter than lots of people. And that was my downfall time after time after time. I never took anyone's advice or listened to people's warnings, because I thought I was more intelligent than them, and why would I listen to someone if I inherently knew better than they did?
That attitude served me poorly for many years. It wasn't until I finally realized that I knew (and was in control of) very little, and I had been humbled to a point where I didn't recognize myself, that I was able to put the booze away and begin my recovery.
My thinking got me into trouble and made me feel bad about myself all the time. When I realized that and asked (my) God to help me forget my way of doing things and live the way he wanted me to, I felt a sense of freedom; a burden lifted off of me. If I don't have all the answers, and if I know that I don't, then there's no pressure on me to be perfect. I can just surrender to the knowledge that I possess very little knowledge to begin with. Life is so much easier when I ask for help and follow the path that others have traveled before me, rather than trying to do everything on my own and darn near losing my mind when I can't.
That attitude served me poorly for many years. It wasn't until I finally realized that I knew (and was in control of) very little, and I had been humbled to a point where I didn't recognize myself, that I was able to put the booze away and begin my recovery.
My thinking got me into trouble and made me feel bad about myself all the time. When I realized that and asked (my) God to help me forget my way of doing things and live the way he wanted me to, I felt a sense of freedom; a burden lifted off of me. If I don't have all the answers, and if I know that I don't, then there's no pressure on me to be perfect. I can just surrender to the knowledge that I possess very little knowledge to begin with. Life is so much easier when I ask for help and follow the path that others have traveled before me, rather than trying to do everything on my own and darn near losing my mind when I can't.
Member
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 224
Why is it the HP can't ever take the form of nature or science?
It is scientifically proven that there are diagnosis of alcohol abuse, alcohol dependence, substance abuse, substance dependence, etc.
It is also proven that meditation and prayer stimulates a part of the mind.
Isn't it possible to put the HP concept into something scientifically viable, yet undeniable and out of human control?
It is scientifically proven that there are diagnosis of alcohol abuse, alcohol dependence, substance abuse, substance dependence, etc.
It is also proven that meditation and prayer stimulates a part of the mind.
Isn't it possible to put the HP concept into something scientifically viable, yet undeniable and out of human control?
Member
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Sydney Australia
Posts: 259
I think I quite know where you are in terms of "your mind'.
Forgive yourself and (from my recent lessons) Stop being hard on yourself.
Thank you for your honesty.
You are obviously willing and definitely NOT A QUITTER>
Welcome my friend.
L
Forgive yourself and (from my recent lessons) Stop being hard on yourself.
Thank you for your honesty.
You are obviously willing and definitely NOT A QUITTER>
Welcome my friend.
L
Member
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 449
Well it's the Jungian Thing, not necessarily a "God" from one of the Abrahamic religions, it doesn't have to be the Buddah or a Hindu diety.
Page 27 of the book Alcoholics Anonymous starting with the word "Yes". Which means, you're not "screwed" provided you find something - that evokes the necessary "spiritual experience".
I didn't go to AA to get holy. But I understand that the fellowship grew from the book and the book was written by people whose experience was largely formulated through measures employed by a Christian organization and adopted in some way into the program. (Oxford Group). So when the term "God" comes up, I just assume it's a colloquial term, a term used for convenience, and not indicative of a any specific reference to the concept in one of the Abrahamic religions or any others. I was raised in the Church, I had no use for preachy alcoholics when I first came in and even less now.
My 11th Step gives me the liberty to see what religions have to offer. I've been practicing meditation for close a year now, learning it from some Hindu dude in a video.
Love and tolerance is my code, so when people refer to their Higher Power who they like to call God, Jesus, or whatever, I tolerate it. In AA meetings I call my Higher Power, my Higher Power. Once in awhile I use the term "God" because in America we call water water, in Mexico they call water - aqua. If I want to bear witness to Jesus, I'll go to a Christian church and bear witness to Jesus.
I'm not here or at AA to get into theology. Oh, except for this ... I think you might do well to look up the notion of an Agnostic Theist. Literally "Not knowing, but believing".
You're not being "humble" by being an atheist. You are asserting - there is NO GOD, without the knowledge and unattainable proof to substantiate your argument.
A more humble reference to yourself - i.e. honest, would be "You don't know, nor do you believe"./end theological digression
It's not necessary to make to the Jungian thing happen, Jung didn't mention a specific God or religion - unless it was just assumed he meant the God of Abrahamic religion. I don't think he did. I think he said what he said, Roland took it to heart and found - based on his cultural comfort level - the Oxford Group.
My power greater than myself started.
1. The law, they were going to lock me up if I continued. I was going to have to conform and comply with something either in jail/prison OR on the outside. That led to
2. The AA Group's sobriety. If "these people" could do it, so could I. That led to
3. The massiveness of the universe.
4. The beauty of the universe.
5. The massiveness of the sky, the beauty of the sky.
6. The trees, the life around me.
7. The itch in my daddy's pants. I did not WILL myself here.
8. The willingness of my mother to allow my daddy to indulge that itch.
9. The willingness of my mother to carry me to term.
10. The education the doctors received to safely deliver me and keep my mother alive.
11. The willingess of my parents to love, educate, raise, feed, cloth and shelter me.
12. Back to the group, if these jokers can get it, so can I.
13. The honesty of Dr. Jung.
14. The willingness of Dr. Jung to admit he didn't know but he had heard of something that might help.
15. The willingness of Roland to try. The willingness of Ebbe to approach Bill, Bill to approach Dr. Bob, and the writing of the book.
All these things happened without my intent, without my power involved, without me, and yet I benefit from them. They are literally, "powers" greater than me. Could that power just be willingness ? So when I found a "willingness" to think "outside the box" of my own delusional thinking and what I knew (or thought I knew) etc.... I in effect did find a power greater than me.
Finally I got in touch with something I can't describe but I experience in meditation and in moments of inspiration and in moments where - against my own devices and natural reactions I am able to be loving and tolerant of others. I subscribed to what brothers in AA described to me - I guess there is a God, but one thing I know - it ain't me.
I hope that works, I respect a keen intellectual mind. I think I have a keen intellectual mind, the biggest problem I have is a delusional idiot has control of it when i don't practice the daily disciplines of steps 10 and 11- i.e. me.
Good luck finding your JungianThing, by any means necessary. The Steps work for me. The way I read it AA is supposed to be a service organization to help drunks recover from a seemingly hopeless state of mind and body. It isn't a new denomination of Christianity and it isn't intended to be a cult
Page 27 of the book Alcoholics Anonymous starting with the word "Yes". Which means, you're not "screwed" provided you find something - that evokes the necessary "spiritual experience".
I didn't go to AA to get holy. But I understand that the fellowship grew from the book and the book was written by people whose experience was largely formulated through measures employed by a Christian organization and adopted in some way into the program. (Oxford Group). So when the term "God" comes up, I just assume it's a colloquial term, a term used for convenience, and not indicative of a any specific reference to the concept in one of the Abrahamic religions or any others. I was raised in the Church, I had no use for preachy alcoholics when I first came in and even less now.
My 11th Step gives me the liberty to see what religions have to offer. I've been practicing meditation for close a year now, learning it from some Hindu dude in a video.
Love and tolerance is my code, so when people refer to their Higher Power who they like to call God, Jesus, or whatever, I tolerate it. In AA meetings I call my Higher Power, my Higher Power. Once in awhile I use the term "God" because in America we call water water, in Mexico they call water - aqua. If I want to bear witness to Jesus, I'll go to a Christian church and bear witness to Jesus.
I'm not here or at AA to get into theology. Oh, except for this ... I think you might do well to look up the notion of an Agnostic Theist. Literally "Not knowing, but believing".
You're not being "humble" by being an atheist. You are asserting - there is NO GOD, without the knowledge and unattainable proof to substantiate your argument.
A more humble reference to yourself - i.e. honest, would be "You don't know, nor do you believe"./end theological digression
It's not necessary to make to the Jungian thing happen, Jung didn't mention a specific God or religion - unless it was just assumed he meant the God of Abrahamic religion. I don't think he did. I think he said what he said, Roland took it to heart and found - based on his cultural comfort level - the Oxford Group.
My power greater than myself started.
1. The law, they were going to lock me up if I continued. I was going to have to conform and comply with something either in jail/prison OR on the outside. That led to
2. The AA Group's sobriety. If "these people" could do it, so could I. That led to
3. The massiveness of the universe.
4. The beauty of the universe.
5. The massiveness of the sky, the beauty of the sky.
6. The trees, the life around me.
7. The itch in my daddy's pants. I did not WILL myself here.
8. The willingness of my mother to allow my daddy to indulge that itch.
9. The willingness of my mother to carry me to term.
10. The education the doctors received to safely deliver me and keep my mother alive.
11. The willingess of my parents to love, educate, raise, feed, cloth and shelter me.
12. Back to the group, if these jokers can get it, so can I.
13. The honesty of Dr. Jung.
14. The willingness of Dr. Jung to admit he didn't know but he had heard of something that might help.
15. The willingness of Roland to try. The willingness of Ebbe to approach Bill, Bill to approach Dr. Bob, and the writing of the book.
All these things happened without my intent, without my power involved, without me, and yet I benefit from them. They are literally, "powers" greater than me. Could that power just be willingness ? So when I found a "willingness" to think "outside the box" of my own delusional thinking and what I knew (or thought I knew) etc.... I in effect did find a power greater than me.
Finally I got in touch with something I can't describe but I experience in meditation and in moments of inspiration and in moments where - against my own devices and natural reactions I am able to be loving and tolerant of others. I subscribed to what brothers in AA described to me - I guess there is a God, but one thing I know - it ain't me.
I hope that works, I respect a keen intellectual mind. I think I have a keen intellectual mind, the biggest problem I have is a delusional idiot has control of it when i don't practice the daily disciplines of steps 10 and 11- i.e. me.
Good luck finding your JungianThing, by any means necessary. The Steps work for me. The way I read it AA is supposed to be a service organization to help drunks recover from a seemingly hopeless state of mind and body. It isn't a new denomination of Christianity and it isn't intended to be a cult
Member
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 224
Jungian:
I am a relatively new sober person, under a month. I am aware I owe my sobriety to antabuse, but do give myself props for continuing to take it. I have been trying to figure out where to go from here: AA? Smart recovery? Hide in a ashram?
I have tried AA before and it didn't stick. I am very hesitant about it.
For me, you just gave the best argument for AA I have run across.
I have not made a decision yet. I am trying to give myself a few more weeks so I can truly have a clear head.
Thank you. I really needed to see your perspective. Thank you sooo much.
I am a relatively new sober person, under a month. I am aware I owe my sobriety to antabuse, but do give myself props for continuing to take it. I have been trying to figure out where to go from here: AA? Smart recovery? Hide in a ashram?
I have tried AA before and it didn't stick. I am very hesitant about it.
For me, you just gave the best argument for AA I have run across.
I have not made a decision yet. I am trying to give myself a few more weeks so I can truly have a clear head.
Thank you. I really needed to see your perspective. Thank you sooo much.
Member
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 449
Good luck with your decision and most importantly in finding your Jungian Thing CatFry. Wherever that might be.
Either one you choose I imagine - willingness - will be a key ingredient.
I hope you get willing to do whatever it takes to have that Jungian Thing --
Quote is from the book Alcoholic Anonymous First Edition
I can't provide the link until I get 15 message posted apparently.
Either one you choose I imagine - willingness - will be a key ingredient.
I hope you get willing to do whatever it takes to have that Jungian Thing --
The doctor said: "You have the mind of a chronic alcoholic. I have never seen one single case recover, where that state of mind existed to the extent that it does in you." Our friend felt as though the gates of hell had closed on him with a clang.
He said to the doctor, "Is there no exception?"
"Yes," replied the doctor, "there is. Exceptions to cases such as yours have been occurring since early times. Here and there, once in a while, alcoholics have had what are called vital spiritual experiences. To me these occurrences are phenomena. They appear to be in the nature of huge emotional displacements and rearrangements. Ideas, emotions, and attitudes which were once the guiding forces of the lives of these men are suddenly cast to one side, and a completely new set of conceptions and motives begin to dominate them. In fact, I have been trying to produce some such emotional rearrangement within you. With many individuals the methods which I employed are successful, but I have never been successful with an alcoholic of your description."*
He said to the doctor, "Is there no exception?"
"Yes," replied the doctor, "there is. Exceptions to cases such as yours have been occurring since early times. Here and there, once in a while, alcoholics have had what are called vital spiritual experiences. To me these occurrences are phenomena. They appear to be in the nature of huge emotional displacements and rearrangements. Ideas, emotions, and attitudes which were once the guiding forces of the lives of these men are suddenly cast to one side, and a completely new set of conceptions and motives begin to dominate them. In fact, I have been trying to produce some such emotional rearrangement within you. With many individuals the methods which I employed are successful, but I have never been successful with an alcoholic of your description."*
I can't provide the link until I get 15 message posted apparently.
Your attitude, not your aptitude, will determine your altitude
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oxnard (The Nard), CA, USA.
Posts: 13,889
Originally Posted by TheJungianThing
You're not being "humble" by being an atheist. You are asserting - there is NO GOD, without the knowledge and unattainable proof to substantiate your argument.
So for me I have yet to see any supported clam that God or a Higher Powers exist or at least a creative argument that doesn't circle around the same ole some ole argument for God and whatnot. I just don't buy it. As I don't need to to recover from all conceivable types of alcoholism, yes that includes uniquely qualified types of alcoholism too.
As a atheist I do have rudimentary understanding of powers greater that myself. The sun for instance emits far more energy that my body could ever do in a billion, billion lifetimes. There are also causes that I can not prevent no matter how hard I tried, like the powers of nature. I cant stop a earth quake. So okay, there far too many instances to name where I am powerless to change events. I am humbled and in awe of nature tho. However, I can not for the life of me believe for one moment that some"mysterious" powers will do for me what I can just do for myself.
I guess one thing I like about Zen is, within the immediate reality that surrounds me daily, I can effect profound changes in my environment, mind and body with the meager powers that I do posses. One important change I can do is change my behavior. Very useful for treating addiction. Don't need no spooky mystifying jazz to to it either. Just some good ole fashion seeking of information, learning then put into practice. Its quite simple really, no need for mental gymnastics or complex circular arguments "just do it' and get-r-done
.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Living in Today!
Posts: 3,944
Originally Posted by Antiderivative 
The truth of the matter is that I find myself struggling. I had 3 1/2 years once and I picked up. When I picked up, I learned how to mitigate the alcoholic consequences, even self-remiss for weeks, and stay away from the cocaine.
However, after four years of basically removing myself from society (in order to mitigate the alcoholic consequences), and destroying everything beautiful I worked for, I found myself in unbearable pain and sought recovery again.
During this time, this is when I found this board. It helped me tremulously; being active, sharing my thoughts, and even helping others. I was very sincere about getting sober again, but after a month or two, I would find myself picking up again. It brought nothing, but self-inflicted pain and it solidified my resolve to get sober, yet it planted the seed of doubt in my head; the self-pity, am I worth it, its useless, etc.
Then I attack with more fervor, but stumbling again; leading to more resolve and self-righteousness and BS.
I remember arguing and slightly flaming on my last night of posting here, how I do have a mental defense against the first drink, but I don't. I really don't. My mind acts against me at times, trying to find way to get away with and have fun with it, when I can't. I can't get away with it or make it fun anymore.
However, I am an atheist, not by choice or self-will, but by humility and lack of knowledge. I am also in AA. So, having either to rely on a god that I simply cannot believe to stop me from picking up that first drink or be doomed to a miserable alcoholic death never sat well with me.
Despite all my knowledge, I sometimes do not have a sufficient mental defense against the first drink, but then I feel like I am screwed since I don't believe in God.
Anyways, I want to apologize. I thought jumping backing into recovery and being a "know it all" would work for me, but it didn't. I didn't want to be a "know it all", but that is how I sink my teeth into things. I am not the most humble person.
All I know is that I need recovery and like sharing here.
Thanks for reading,
Mike.
However, after four years of basically removing myself from society (in order to mitigate the alcoholic consequences), and destroying everything beautiful I worked for, I found myself in unbearable pain and sought recovery again.
During this time, this is when I found this board. It helped me tremulously; being active, sharing my thoughts, and even helping others. I was very sincere about getting sober again, but after a month or two, I would find myself picking up again. It brought nothing, but self-inflicted pain and it solidified my resolve to get sober, yet it planted the seed of doubt in my head; the self-pity, am I worth it, its useless, etc.
Then I attack with more fervor, but stumbling again; leading to more resolve and self-righteousness and BS.
I remember arguing and slightly flaming on my last night of posting here, how I do have a mental defense against the first drink, but I don't. I really don't. My mind acts against me at times, trying to find way to get away with and have fun with it, when I can't. I can't get away with it or make it fun anymore.
However, I am an atheist, not by choice or self-will, but by humility and lack of knowledge. I am also in AA. So, having either to rely on a god that I simply cannot believe to stop me from picking up that first drink or be doomed to a miserable alcoholic death never sat well with me.
Despite all my knowledge, I sometimes do not have a sufficient mental defense against the first drink, but then I feel like I am screwed since I don't believe in God.
Anyways, I want to apologize. I thought jumping backing into recovery and being a "know it all" would work for me, but it didn't. I didn't want to be a "know it all", but that is how I sink my teeth into things. I am not the most humble person.
All I know is that I need recovery and like sharing here.
Thanks for reading,
Mike.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 395
Thanks for all of the responses. It wasn't my intention to make this post about God, but sometimes I get frustrated and find myself at odds with program that I enjoy. I was just venting, but at the end of the day, I like AA.
Either way, I am hardcore alcoholic and this groove of putting together some time and then going back out is not working. Something needs to change because I can't keep this up. It is just too painful.
However, I will put some time together, life will be going good, then the next thing I know, I find myself rationalizing away drinking and thinking that I will get different results. And I know better, but that doesn't stop my mind from basically lying to myself.
Maybe my denial and dishonesty runs deeper than I would like to admit.
I really don't know. I am a bit baffled.
Either way, I am hardcore alcoholic and this groove of putting together some time and then going back out is not working. Something needs to change because I can't keep this up. It is just too painful.
However, I will put some time together, life will be going good, then the next thing I know, I find myself rationalizing away drinking and thinking that I will get different results. And I know better, but that doesn't stop my mind from basically lying to myself.
Maybe my denial and dishonesty runs deeper than I would like to admit.
I really don't know. I am a bit baffled.
Member
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 449
Zencat,
I can dig that and respect it that. The 11th step allows me to be quick to see where religion is right and make use of what they have to offer. What an opportunity, I get to stay sober, learn and broaden the mind and the spirit. I get to explore Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and whatever else.
I can dig that and respect it that. The 11th step allows me to be quick to see where religion is right and make use of what they have to offer. What an opportunity, I get to stay sober, learn and broaden the mind and the spirit. I get to explore Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and whatever else.
Member
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 449
Originally Posted by Antiderivative
Thanks for all of the responses. It wasn't my intention to make this post about God, but sometimes I get frustrated and find myself at odds with program that I enjoy. I was just venting, but at the end of the day, I like AA.
Either way, I am hardcore alcoholic and this groove of putting together some time and then going back out is not working. Something needs to change because I can't keep this up. It is just too painful.
However, I will put some time together, life will be going good, then the next thing I know, I find myself rationalizing away drinking and thinking that I will get different results. And I know better, but that doesn't stop my mind from basically lying to myself.
Maybe my denial and dishonesty runs deeper than I would like to admit.
I really don't know. I am a bit baffled.
Either way, I am hardcore alcoholic and this groove of putting together some time and then going back out is not working. Something needs to change because I can't keep this up. It is just too painful.
However, I will put some time together, life will be going good, then the next thing I know, I find myself rationalizing away drinking and thinking that I will get different results. And I know better, but that doesn't stop my mind from basically lying to myself.
Maybe my denial and dishonesty runs deeper than I would like to admit.
I really don't know. I am a bit baffled.
I wish you your Jungian experience. You obviously have the capaciity to be honest. And the best state, is "not knowing". The less I know, the more I learn. So being baffled isn't necessary a bad thing.
I seek, through steps and service to others, to have those emotional displacements and rearrangments, ideas and notions that were once the driving force of my life being cast aside so a new set can come in ... it's all there what Jung said. I used to be driven by alcohol, drunkenness. I'm now driven by sobriety. I used to have varying degrees of being driven by certain delusions of myself.
I joined AA to stop drinking so I could become a Soldier. That was a delusion, but it drove me, motivated me. Got me to AA. Got me willing to follow some direction. That idea has to be cast aside, reality wouldn't have it, it got supplanted by a new one. Being a father, being a husband, being a member of a service organization to help drunks.
I wish for you peace. Serenity - and instead of being baffled (a state I associate with not knowing and thinking I should know),, being filled with contentment in the not knowing, but the wonder of experiencing. I don't know if that makes sense.
Good luck.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 325
Maybe you should stop to think about how not believing in God or any higher power is part of your old way of thinking. You probably believed and changed your thinking in many other ways, but you are stuck that this part of your old thinking is correct. All I know is the my best thinking always got me drunk, in trouble and flat on my back while believing in God has relieved me of all of that so far.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 395
Originally Posted by Nirvana1
Maybe you should stop to think about how not believing in God or any higher power is part of your old way of thinking. You probably believed and changed your thinking in many other ways, but you are stuck that this part of your old thinking is correct. All I know is the my best thinking always got me drunk, in trouble and flat on my back while believing in God has relieved me of all of that so far.
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