I apologize for flaming, acting self-righteous, and lying.
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Mike: I can subscribe to a higher power. I have no problem recognizing the fact there are many powers greater than myself. However, I am incapable of believing in a personal deity who is going to save me from myself. I have even tried to force a belief, but it is simply not there.
It is not necessary to believe in a personal deity in order to work the steps of AA. All that is needed is a belief or even a willingness to believe in a power greater than ourselves. Susan
It is not necessary to believe in a personal deity in order to work the steps of AA. All that is needed is a belief or even a willingness to believe in a power greater than ourselves. Susan
Your attitude, not your aptitude, will determine your altitude
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Originally Posted by Antiderivative
I can subscribe to a higher power. I have no problem recognizing the fact there are many powers greater than myself. However, I am incapable of believing in a personal deity who is going to save me from myself. I have even tried to force a belief, but it is simply not there.
To delve further. In your minds eye you are believing in the power of the AA group a non-personal deity. Because its a fact when groups of people form under a unifying cause, much gets done. But the hidden underlying mystery will be something beyond comprehension (as a lot of things in life are), i.e., the mystery of HP's. Because there's no codified HP belief system in AA. You get to think of your HP as you please yet they work as described in AA literature...relief from alcoholism. Think what you will of HP's, invite one in your life and you get the same results as everybody else gets...yes?
Ops a Fruideian slip to a Junguian response...LOL.
Originally Posted by ZenC *correction*
As I don't need *God(s)/HP's* to recover from all conceivable types of alcoholism, yes that includes uniquely qualified types of alcoholism too.
I do investigate religion/mythology to see what they have to offer. Something I never would have done as a drunk. Comparative mythology, the psychology of religion and old myths and legends has a continual hold on my interest. I also like a good mystery. The wonderful known universe has a many of those. I find those things ever so...fascinating. I always find new and useful information during my inquiries of such matters. Were basically in the same book of all things, just on different pages
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Originally Posted by Antiderivative 
I can subscribe to a higher power. I have no problem recognizing the fact there are many powers greater than myself. However, I am incapable of believing in a personal deity who is going to save me from myself. I have even tried to force a belief, but it is simply not there.
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Its me. I can get so easily distracted and agitated at times. For instance, I can go to a meeting and 99% of it will be good, but I can get fixated on the 1% that I disagree with.
I don't agree with everything in AA literature. I don't agree with everything that people say in meetings, but I am the one who needs to cope with this and not get consumed by it because despite these facts, I find AA overwhelmingly beneficial.
The truth of the matter is that when I am active in my recovery, I do the best. This requires going to meetings, being apart of the fellowship, working with my sponsor, posting here, working on myself, focusing on the solutions, and keeping it within the day.
Being proactive and being at one with myself is when I do the best. Things tend to fall apart when I start to become easily agitated and lackadaisical.
Perhaps that is not the answer, but it is the best one I have for now.
I don't agree with everything in AA literature. I don't agree with everything that people say in meetings, but I am the one who needs to cope with this and not get consumed by it because despite these facts, I find AA overwhelmingly beneficial.
The truth of the matter is that when I am active in my recovery, I do the best. This requires going to meetings, being apart of the fellowship, working with my sponsor, posting here, working on myself, focusing on the solutions, and keeping it within the day.
Being proactive and being at one with myself is when I do the best. Things tend to fall apart when I start to become easily agitated and lackadaisical.
Perhaps that is not the answer, but it is the best one I have for now.
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Originally Posted by Antiderivative
Despite all my knowledge, I sometimes do not have a sufficient mental defense against the first drink, but then I feel like I am screwed since I don't believe in God.
You don't need to believe in God (not right away at least). All you need to believe in is the path:
"Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path."
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Mike --
So glad you came to the meeting today. Keep working at this, you can do it. Remember, every morning, just ask for help staying sober that day. Doesn't matter if you know who you are asking, or don't believe you are really asking anyone. It is a start and it is a willingness.
you remind me of me. Analyzing things, finding the few things that I can pick apart, use logic to attack, and stay sick. At some point, you will find you can let go. And in letting go, you will have freedom. And with that freedom comes the freedom from the issue of alcohol.
Keep coming back. We need you in those rooms!
So glad you came to the meeting today. Keep working at this, you can do it. Remember, every morning, just ask for help staying sober that day. Doesn't matter if you know who you are asking, or don't believe you are really asking anyone. It is a start and it is a willingness.
you remind me of me. Analyzing things, finding the few things that I can pick apart, use logic to attack, and stay sick. At some point, you will find you can let go. And in letting go, you will have freedom. And with that freedom comes the freedom from the issue of alcohol.
Keep coming back. We need you in those rooms!
i've done my almost
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Hiya Mike-
It sounds to me like you've got a thinking problem and you might be better off letting someone else do your thinking for you (like a sponsor) for a bit.
Whatcha really holding on to? (ego? is it worth it?)
Kjell~
It sounds to me like you've got a thinking problem and you might be better off letting someone else do your thinking for you (like a sponsor) for a bit.
Whatcha really holding on to? (ego? is it worth it?)
Kjell~
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Originally Posted by Boleo
Knowledge never kept me sober. Surrender did.
You don't need to believe in God (not right away at least). All you need to believe in is the path:
"Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path."
You don't need to believe in God (not right away at least). All you need to believe in is the path:
"Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path."
I could relate to that since when I attach myself to alcohol, I will either win or lose. It is best to not even play that game.
I am not sure if that is what you mean by surrender though.
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Mike: The truth of the matter is that when I am active in my recovery, I do the best. This requires going to meetings, being apart of the fellowship, working with my sponsor, posting here, working on myself, focusing on the solutions, and keeping it within the day.
Mike: Perhaps that is not the answer, but it is the best one I have for now.
Maybe it's time to give up on "your best answer" and apply the AA answer, i.e., the twelve steps which are the AA program. There is a solution, Mike. And it's not going to meetings, being a part of the fellowship, working with your sponsor (unless you are actively, diligently and thoroughly working the steps), or any of the other items you listed. Meetings, fellowship, sponsor, etc. are all great ideas and great support, and I would encourage you to continue doing all of those things. However, the real change and the real recovery comes from having an entire psychic change (a spiritual awakening) as a result of working the twelve steps. If you work the steps, you will "find AA even more overwhelmingly beneficial" than you do now. That is a promise.
Susan
Mike: Perhaps that is not the answer, but it is the best one I have for now.
Maybe it's time to give up on "your best answer" and apply the AA answer, i.e., the twelve steps which are the AA program. There is a solution, Mike. And it's not going to meetings, being a part of the fellowship, working with your sponsor (unless you are actively, diligently and thoroughly working the steps), or any of the other items you listed. Meetings, fellowship, sponsor, etc. are all great ideas and great support, and I would encourage you to continue doing all of those things. However, the real change and the real recovery comes from having an entire psychic change (a spiritual awakening) as a result of working the twelve steps. If you work the steps, you will "find AA even more overwhelmingly beneficial" than you do now. That is a promise.
Susan
i've done my almost
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Originally Posted by Antiderivative
I need to challenge my own thinking and emotions.
You probably need to lay off of that thinking business for a bit and act your way into some healthy thinking.
Kjell~
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Originally Posted by susanlauren
Maybe it's time to give up on "your best answer" and apply the AA answer,
I really don't know anymore.
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Surrender has meant giving up completely, without condition and without reservation. I have ceased fighting and struggling against alcohol. Self-knowledge and willpower do not work. Nor have any of the other measures I have tried to stop and stay stopped.
Left to my own devices, I will drink again and there is nothing -- absolutely nothing -- I can do to stop that from happening. So I have stopped trying to not drink. And I have started trying to find a power greater than myself which will solve my problem for me.
Susan
Left to my own devices, I will drink again and there is nothing -- absolutely nothing -- I can do to stop that from happening. So I have stopped trying to not drink. And I have started trying to find a power greater than myself which will solve my problem for me.
Susan
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Mike,
I have heard lots of things in the rooms of AA that are not the program of AA. And I understand why and how that can be confusing. What I have come to learn is that the program of AA is not the fellowship of AA. I don't listen to everything (everyone) I hear.
The AA program is the first 164 pages of the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous. If anyone says anything that conflicts with what is written in those first 164 pages, then it is that person's opinion or interpretation and not the program of AA.
AA is absolutely a program of action. The first three steps are conclusions of the mind, the remaining nine steps are all about taking action. The Big Book says, "These are the steps we took ..." not "these are the steps we read, discussed and mentally agreed to".
Susan
I have heard lots of things in the rooms of AA that are not the program of AA. And I understand why and how that can be confusing. What I have come to learn is that the program of AA is not the fellowship of AA. I don't listen to everything (everyone) I hear.
The AA program is the first 164 pages of the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous. If anyone says anything that conflicts with what is written in those first 164 pages, then it is that person's opinion or interpretation and not the program of AA.
AA is absolutely a program of action. The first three steps are conclusions of the mind, the remaining nine steps are all about taking action. The Big Book says, "These are the steps we took ..." not "these are the steps we read, discussed and mentally agreed to".
Susan
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Originally Posted by ulverston
somebody posted this a 10 truths I have learned about recovery and this disease of addiction
I have been around the program for a few 24hrs and there are some undeniable truths about this disease and recovery that I did not want to accept when I first came around, although I heard it at almost every meeting in some form. Maybe they can help someone.
1. You will not quit until you have had enough. This one sounds so harsh, but like the book states "It finally beat us into a state of reasonableness" I know for this alcoholic it took every treatment center, hospital bed, DUI, pint of blood I threw up, etc to earn my plastic chair.
2. The booze\drugs are not the real problem. No one who has any respect for themselves pounds poisonous chemicals into their body until they slip into oblivion. The booze\drugs were the solution, at least for a while. Booze\drugs could help us escape our miserable existence filled with unhappiness, all derived due to selfishness and self-centeredness.
3. The same man\woman will drink again. If putting down the booze was enough, there would be no need for the 12 steps, meetings, sponsors, or a big book. It is like a knocking rod in your engine. A can of STP oil treatment will quiet the knock for a week or so, but the rod is still bent. A spiritual awakening is required to fix the real problem.
4. No human power could have relieved my alcoholism. Lord knows everyone tried. Judges, lawyers, girlfriends, etc. I have spent my life placing dependence on other people. But because they are human, they will always fail us, just like we failed them. This is where a power greater than myself is required.
5. This is an inside problem with no outside solution. I have always thought, if just had the right girlfriend, band, job, income, blah, blah, then I would not need to drink. I was trying to fill inside holes with outside things. Healing starts on the inside when we work steps two and three. There is a sufficient substitute. It is the fellowship.
6. I am powerless over alcohol, and pornography, and Ben and Jerry’s, and caffeine, etc. My disease changes clothes all the time. The good news is that I recognize it. Look, if it feels good, taste good, looks good, I want more of it. Moderation is not in my vocabulary. But I have tools today that I can use. Sponsor, prayer, meetings, talking to another alcoholic.
7. My life is unmanageable. It does not say my hair is unmanageable, or my checkbook is unmanageable. My life in unmanageable. This means everything. I finally got the guts to fire myself from management and made sure I was marked "no re-hire!" This was really tough to accept. I am so damn self sufficient, enough to get me killed.
8. It is not the caboose on the train that kills you. The craziest thing I have ever done was done sober, and that was to pick up the first one. After the first one, it is two, three, and the next thing you know ol Jed's a millionaire. It is alcoholism, not alcoholwasm.
9. I cannot think myself out of this disease. It says this many times in the big book. My sponsor gave me a test. It goes like this:
Self knowledge avails me:
A). Everything I have ever wanted.
B). Half the s#it I needed.
C). Jack s*it.
Being too smart for this program will get you killed.
10. You must give it away to keep it. Huh? I hated these little quips, like surrender to win!. Arggg. But this is one of the greatest gifts of the spiritual awakening. When I work with other alcoholics, I feel whole, useful, and like I am doing God's work. It is indescribable. When I first heard this I said "hooey"! Man was I wrong.
Of course, there is sooooo much more. I just had to get that out. Thanks for letting me share.
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Old 12-27-2007, 10:08 AM #2 (permalink)
Treasure2Find
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Whawhile back ..it sez it all
I have been around the program for a few 24hrs and there are some undeniable truths about this disease and recovery that I did not want to accept when I first came around, although I heard it at almost every meeting in some form. Maybe they can help someone.
1. You will not quit until you have had enough. This one sounds so harsh, but like the book states "It finally beat us into a state of reasonableness" I know for this alcoholic it took every treatment center, hospital bed, DUI, pint of blood I threw up, etc to earn my plastic chair.
2. The booze\drugs are not the real problem. No one who has any respect for themselves pounds poisonous chemicals into their body until they slip into oblivion. The booze\drugs were the solution, at least for a while. Booze\drugs could help us escape our miserable existence filled with unhappiness, all derived due to selfishness and self-centeredness.
3. The same man\woman will drink again. If putting down the booze was enough, there would be no need for the 12 steps, meetings, sponsors, or a big book. It is like a knocking rod in your engine. A can of STP oil treatment will quiet the knock for a week or so, but the rod is still bent. A spiritual awakening is required to fix the real problem.
4. No human power could have relieved my alcoholism. Lord knows everyone tried. Judges, lawyers, girlfriends, etc. I have spent my life placing dependence on other people. But because they are human, they will always fail us, just like we failed them. This is where a power greater than myself is required.
5. This is an inside problem with no outside solution. I have always thought, if just had the right girlfriend, band, job, income, blah, blah, then I would not need to drink. I was trying to fill inside holes with outside things. Healing starts on the inside when we work steps two and three. There is a sufficient substitute. It is the fellowship.
6. I am powerless over alcohol, and pornography, and Ben and Jerry’s, and caffeine, etc. My disease changes clothes all the time. The good news is that I recognize it. Look, if it feels good, taste good, looks good, I want more of it. Moderation is not in my vocabulary. But I have tools today that I can use. Sponsor, prayer, meetings, talking to another alcoholic.
7. My life is unmanageable. It does not say my hair is unmanageable, or my checkbook is unmanageable. My life in unmanageable. This means everything. I finally got the guts to fire myself from management and made sure I was marked "no re-hire!" This was really tough to accept. I am so damn self sufficient, enough to get me killed.
8. It is not the caboose on the train that kills you. The craziest thing I have ever done was done sober, and that was to pick up the first one. After the first one, it is two, three, and the next thing you know ol Jed's a millionaire. It is alcoholism, not alcoholwasm.
9. I cannot think myself out of this disease. It says this many times in the big book. My sponsor gave me a test. It goes like this:
Self knowledge avails me:
A). Everything I have ever wanted.
B). Half the s#it I needed.
C). Jack s*it.
Being too smart for this program will get you killed.
10. You must give it away to keep it. Huh? I hated these little quips, like surrender to win!. Arggg. But this is one of the greatest gifts of the spiritual awakening. When I work with other alcoholics, I feel whole, useful, and like I am doing God's work. It is indescribable. When I first heard this I said "hooey"! Man was I wrong.
Of course, there is sooooo much more. I just had to get that out. Thanks for letting me share.
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Old 12-27-2007, 10:08 AM #2 (permalink)
Treasure2Find
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Whawhile back ..it sez it all
I think #1, #2, #5 are good points but the rest are very questionable, contradict each other, and not "truths" by any means. It's dangerous to spread these ideas to people as each person has a different experience and deals with things in different ways depending on their nature, beliefs, and life circumstances. You know deep down that in reality you're not totally powerless over alcohol/drugs, if you were then you'd never be able to stop. Why were you able to get sober this time and not before? You were more motivated than ever and simply found a way to do it by finding TANGIBLE things that work for you (which can include things outside yourself like support and help). Sometimes after you've had enough, you do whatever it takes- like #1 says. Then things start to become a habit and they click. Despite what you may think- it's not some imaginary, magical force doing this - it's YOU and hopefully those that support you.. give yourself some credit!
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Originally Posted by Stride34
I think #1, #2, #5 are good points but the rest are very questionable, contradict each other, and not "truths" by any means.
If the bottoming out method worked so well, then we wouldn't have a pile of dead alcoholics and addicts lying at our feet. Simply having enough doesn't work for some of us.
i've done my almost
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Originally Posted by Antiderivative
If the bottoming out method worked so well, then we wouldn't have a pile of dead alcoholics and addicts lying at our feet. Simply having enough doesn't work for some of us.
I heard a share once, where this guy said "a bottom isn't always a dui, or a divorce, or a firing, it's an emotion".
That's something we can all relate to. The guilt, shame, and remorse is the worst part of it all...
Working all 12 steps of AA to the best of my ability, even the ones I didn't want to do, removed the obession of drinking and gave me a design for living I needed, than later wanted, and now appreciate.
...but I'm not special. It can work for you too.
Kjell~
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Originally Posted by Kjell
...but I'm not special. It can work for you too.
Kjell~
Kjell~
Honestly, your implications that I am terminally unique and that I shouldn't have a right to my own opinion is becoming a tad frustrating. I know that you are trying to help, but perhaps you should consider a different approach.
I have been through the steps twice and I have been working them again for the past couple of months. In fact, I picked up after 3 1/2 years when my faith in a HP was the strongest.
I am not fighting you people. In fact, I am taking your advice, but that hasn't stopped the fact that I have occasionally found myself on the brink of self-destructive alcoholic behavior.
I want sobriety. I like being sober and hate being drunk. I don't want to drink anymore. I don't want to drink against my will. I have been doing that for far too long with outright negative and destructive consequences. This **** needs to end.
In fact, I am leaving shortly to go do stepwork with my sponsor.
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Originally Posted by Antiderivative
I disagree with #1, but that doesn't stop people from telling alcoholics and addicts to drink and drug more, telling them that they are not yet ready for recovery.
If the bottoming out method worked so well, then we wouldn't have a pile of dead alcoholics and addicts lying at our feet. Simply having enough doesn't work for some of us.
If the bottoming out method worked so well, then we wouldn't have a pile of dead alcoholics and addicts lying at our feet. Simply having enough doesn't work for some of us.
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I don't think a bottom is a specific place or situation. You don't have to lose anything specific or end up in jail. For me, you hit bottom when life with alcohol becomes more painful than life without alcohol. At that point, you will be ready to quit.
i've done my almost
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Originally Posted by Antiderivative
Honestly, your implications that I am terminally unique and that I shouldn't have a right to my own opinion is becoming a tad frustrating.
I don't think you shouldn't have a right to your own opinion at all.
My main point was that my own thinking got me into a big mess and I had a lightbulb moment when I realized my own thinking wasn't going to get me out of it. Action before thought? I would have never understood this, had it not been for the pain that I caused myself.
I've learned on here that sometimes it's best to "bow out" , especially when called out.
Best of luck to ya.
Kjell~
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