bella78

Hey everyone. I haven't been around in while because I've been so busy with grad school and midterms, death in the family, and work and trying to fix a relationship ruined by pills.

So my ABF decided that he wants to prove to me that he is "clean" and went back on subs for the third time. This time he claims he was clean although I have caught him relasping this time with heroin (his DOC was oxys and roxys). It was heart wrenching and I thought that this would be the end of us.

He since has been on the suboxones at 1-2mg a day. He hasn't taken any yesterday and he has started to feel w/d symptoms and hates it and went to his dr who told him to either go into detox, or wean off. It's so close to the holidays and he has no medical insurance or money so he doesn't see detox as an option. I really don't know if I believe him bc he even told me that his dr said that the w/d from heroin is less painful than the w/d from subs. I think this is a crock of bull and I've had it with his "stories". I'm a sucker too bc I gave him money to go to the dr and told him he has to give me a receipt, however he conveniently forgot to ask the girl at the desk for one.....

He has been complainign the whole time, every time he takes the sub treatment that he hates the way they make him feel - lethargic, loss of sex drive, zombie-like, and nauseous.

I want to know if anyone has any experience with weaning off low dosages of subs and if you have a tapering schedule. I know he should just go to his dr but he can't afford it and I'm done giving him money. I know I should just put him out but he has no place to go and I see in his eyes and peas that he really wants to be clean.

I know I am already the world's biggest sucker and I have been doing well trying not to enable him and doing my own thing... but I need to give him one last chance.

krissypissy

hi there-i dont have any answers for you but i wanted to say you seem very dedicated to your honey and that is very admirable! good luck to you!!!! take care

madriley

Hi Bella! First off, props to you for being so supportive of your BF, trying to deal with an addict has to be one of the hardest things for a person to do, so good for you! I have been on subs a couple of times in the past. Now, each time I was on them I really just used them as an out so I would not get w/d when I could not get my DOC (which was oxy's) However, when I had to taper off of them(I was on a 3 month program), this is what my doc had me do: The first 2 months I took the same dosage every day, I was on 2 8mg tabs a day. The last 4 weeks I was on the program went like this: Week 4 I cut down to 1.5 8mg tabs daily. Week 3 I cut down to 1 8 mg tab daily (I would take half in the morning and half at night) Week 2 I cut down to .5 of an 8 mg tab daily (I would wait until the afternoon to do this so it would get me through the night and early next morning) My last week I took a quarter of an 8mg daily. Now all during the last 4 weeks I did feel more tired than usual and I did have some upset stomach, but no shakes or sweats. On my last week when I cut down to a quarter of a tab, I started to get a little more w'd symptoms, sweats and shakes leg cramps, but nothing like I was w'd from Oxy's. I told my doc and he suggested that I continue for another week, so I took a quarter of a tab daily for another week. I still felt like I was getting the beginning of the flu, but it was so much more manageable than regular w/d's.
Now everyone is different but for me personally, the subs were the easiest to get off of. I have been on Oxy's, roxy's, vikes, percs, heroin and methadone in the past and the subs were the easiest, my problem was that I was not ready to stop my other drugs so I went back to them when I finished the program.
It is certainly possible for anyone to make a recovery while on subs, but the subs only provide comfort, they take the place of the DOC and take away the physical w/d while allowing you to live your everyday life. However, nobody will get clean on subs if they are not going to work at getting clean. This is something that he will have to work on for the rest of his life. If he is not ready though, then once he is done with the subs, he will go right back. He has to expect to still feel some discomfort once off of them for a little while, but of course, if there was no discomfort or agony to quit using, I doubt we would have such a damn hard time getting clean right? Bottom line, if he is serious about getting clean, he will do whatever it takes to make it so, go to meetings, counseling, therapy, anything. Has he been to meetings before? Maybe you could suggest this to him? In addition to the subs, he will have a much better chance at success if he combines some other type of support with the subs.

My thoughts are with you, please keep us updated on how he is making out.

ccgirl2

I guess I'm not going to be so nice. You sound like a very caring, loving girlfriend. So much so that you're making things to easy for him. I don't know how many chances you give someone; I don't think there's a magic number; but from where I stand you're enabling him.

Withdrawing isn't supposed to feel good. He needs to feel like crap; it's part of the deal. And, no matter what excuse he gives, he needs to wean from subs with a Dr. A good doctor will work out a payment plan with him. They don't want to see him fail. Or die.

Mr.Hyde

The idea is to taper as low as humanly possible. I would suggest one the doses get below 1 mg (crack a 2mg pill in half), mix the 2mg with water. Make sure you measure the amount of water, use like 20 mL (or whatever works best for you to measure, just make sure its not like 100mL), Then take an eyedropper or a rectal syringe, available at walgreens, and measure out the dosage. If you use 20mL per 2mg subs, a 5mL amount is .5 mg subs. This is called titrating your dose, it'll allow him to taper even further. Drop .5 mg every week or more, whatever is comfortable. Oh and I guess it's important to mention that the solution gets dropped/sprayed under the tongue, it kind of a pain in the {dupa} to wait for it to absorb, but it will. As BV has said, the whole mouth is capable of absorbing, and just try not to oversalivate or swallow (or spit). Good luck and God Bless.

bella78

Thanks everyone for your help and advice! I'll keep you updated!

bval

"lethargic, loss of sex drive, zombie-like, and nauseous"

I'm curious as to how, exactly, those effects are different from those of heroin?

Is he doing the pills sublingually like he's supposed to?

He should try to wean down to like .5mg/day for about a month, and then step off at that dose. It's not that hard to come off of that amount.

To be honest, yes, sub w/d's CAN be worse than heroin, but probably not at the kind of doses you're talking about here.

In fact, getting off of ANY particular opioid *can* be worse than getting off of any other opioid ... it mostly depends on how much you're coming off of in each case.

And all have very different 'strengths' on a mg/mg basis, so you can't compare on those grounds. IOW, I'd say that getting off a 1000mg/day of street heroin, or 240mg of oxycodone, are ROUGHLY equivalent in intensity to getting off of 16mg/day of subs. And the oxy/heroin w/d's would kick in sooner, and be over quicker, for sure.

I stepped off at 2mg/day myself, and although it was certainly not pleasant, it was manageable, especially since I was under my mom's lock and key.

It sounds like this dude, unfortunately, is not really ready. Once your mind is made up to get clean, it's really not all that hard to stay on just subs and not relapse on dope ... at least, it wasn't for me. But it took a BUNCH of starts/stop with the subs BEFORE I was actually ready to quit the dope for good, so ...

lostbutterfly

I had to re-read that, bv. Thought you had come off the sub equivalent of 10 bags of H and found it "unpleasant". But it was a bit less than that, lol!

((Bella)) You are not a sucker, you love an addict. Give him the one more chance you need to give him. I think you need to do that so if you look back on this, you know you did the best you could.

If the chance doesn't work, it is time to let go. Easier said that done, I know. But it's not going to get better for you. He has to do this himself and no power on earth, including his love for you and your love for him is going to do it for him.

I feel for you - I've been in the same position. It's pretty hopeless and despairing, I've got to say. LB xx

bella78

Thanks again all for all the advice.

I actually just got back from dropping him off at the detox center. I came home from work last night and found him crying and on his hands and knees and telling me that he is done and wants to be clean from everything and he doesn't want to lose me and he wants my trust back and his old self back. He also admitted to being very suicidal and has done research and read that subs sometimes can do that to people and he just wants his old sober self back.

So he called the facility he went to before about 2 months ago and they had a bed available and he wants to come out clean and on nothing.

Of course, because I love him and believe that I will not be happy, like you said, lost butterfly, until I do everything I can to try, I will try ONE LAST TIME. But this is his last chance.

Upon coming home, I went through his drawers and found 3 empty baggies of heroin, which I suspected he was still doing. But if this last stint at detox and an agreement of regular meetings and getting a steady job does not prove to be the positive change, well, I will have to think about ONLY me after this. I am hopeful and seeing the tears (which is rare for him - after 8 years of being together I have only seen him cry maybe 5 times) I am giving him this last chance.

When he came home after 7 days of detox the last time, I was hopeful that I had my old bf back. I am a realist, however, and know that there were chances of relapse and instead of his DOC (oxys and pills) he switched to heroin because someone owed him money and offered to pay him back with a bundle of heroin - and it was downhill again from there.

But like I said - this is it. I value myself too much to continue to allow myself to be tortured this way. This is not what I signed up for 8 years ago when I met him. But having an addicted and alcoholic mother, I know that somewhere beneath the addiction and highs and lies, there is the man I fell in love with - and I am hopeful that i will get him back.

I'll be back to update you in about 3-5 days (which is how long he thinks he will be in there). Meanwhile, I'm going out for some friend therapy with my girls. :o)

bella78

Thanks again all for all the advice.

I actually just got back from dropping him off at the detox center. I came home from work last night and found him crying and on his hands and knees and telling me that he is done and wants to be clean from everything and he doesn't want to lose me and he wants my trust back and his old self back. He also admitted to being very suicidal and has done research and read that subs sometimes can do that to people and he just wants his old sober self back.

So he called the facility he went to before about 2 months ago and they had a bed available and he wants to come out clean and on nothing.

Of course, because I love him and believe that I will not be happy, like you said, lost butterfly, until I do everything I can to try, I will try ONE LAST TIME. But this is his last chance.

Upon coming home, I went through his drawers and found 3 empty baggies of heroin, which I suspected he was still doing. But if this last stint at detox and an agreement of regular meetings and getting a steady job does not prove to be the positive change, well, I will have to think about ONLY me after this. I am hopeful and seeing the tears (which is rare for him - after 8 years of being together I have only seen him cry maybe 5 times) I am giving him this last chance.

When he came home after 7 days of detox the last time, I was hopeful that I had my old bf back. I am a realist, however, and know that there were chances of relapse and instead of his DOC (oxys and pills) he switched to heroin because someone owed him money and offered to pay him back with a bundle of heroin - and it was downhill again from there.

But like I said - this is it. I value myself too much to continue to allow myself to be tortured this way. This is not what I signed up for 8 years ago when I met him. But having an addicted and alcoholic mother, I know that somewhere beneath the addiction and highs and lies, there is the man I fell in love with - and I am hopeful that i will get him back.

I'll be back to update you in about 3-5 days (which is how long he thinks he will be in there). Meanwhile, I'm going out for some friend therapy with my girls. :o)

lostbutterfly

Make sure it IS his last chance Bella, however much you love him. Have you thought of al-anon or similar meetings? You may find this pattern repeating itself with him (if you stay together) or with someone else in the future.