Is no help cruel?
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2007
Location: St. Charles, MO
Posts: 95
Is no help cruel?
Hi,
I've been over on the alcoholism thread for a few weeks, trying to understand the mind of an alcoholic. Several times it has been suggested that I come over here. I've been hesitant to because I dont' like the philosophy that we should basically abandon our alcoholic loved ones so that they hit bottom faster. My assumption is that is what is taught by Al-Anon. Maybe that isn't fair or accurate.
Here's the situation:
My brother is a fairly serious alcoholic, drinks 12 beers a day, beginning with one or two in the morning. He is eligible to get his drivers license back, but if he gets another DWI, he will probably go to jail (3rd time, I think). He moved out of his house, jointly owned with my Dad, a month ago to a cabin in the woods 100 miles away, owned by our cousin. Our cousin has asked that he move out soon for various reason.
My brother has a truck that isn't running, but it is at his house close to me and my parents. It can be fixed by my Dad (maybe 5 hrs work) or by a mechanic for perhaps $300-500. My brother could come in to fix it, but his life would be in danger at his house, and IMO my life and my parents life would be endangered if he stayed with either of us. Finally, he would be more likely to see his on and off girlfriend if he comes in, and that would increase the risk of danger to him and anyone associated with him (we will be getting his house ready, and that is only 2 blocks away from the person out to get my brother). My brother is now out of money. He doesn't have a job. So, he has:
1. No money
2. No job
3. No transportation
4. No cellphone service in the woods
5. Only another week or so to live in the woods.
If I and my parents do nothing to help him, it appears he has the choice to either become homeless or to move back to his house which will put his life in danger. Basically, he stole another man's woman, and the man likely will want revenge. However, he is no longer with the woman, but there are very strong feelings both ways, though she cannot be trusted. The man assaulted my brother and the state is pressing 1st degree assault charges, with potential $20,000 of medical bills related to the assault charge on my brother. My brother is not wanted by the police.
I do not think it is right to just let my brother become homeless with so few resources to turn things around, just because he is drinking even though drinking has contributed to his various problems. Other things have contributed too.
More info: His house can probably be sold in 2 months or so, netting my brother a possible $20,000 in profit. However, my brother didn't hold up his end of the bargain with my Dad, so while my Dad is willing to give my brother $20,000, he only wants to do so with stipulations--ie he can use it to buy some land with some shelter on it, but he can't just have 20 grand to use however he wants.
So, in a sense my brother isn't really moneyless or homeless. Any help provided for the near term--food, short term rent, gas, transportation costs can come from future sales of his house.
I'm thinking that there is nothing wrong with setting my brother up with another place to live temporarily that is closer to people, ie near or in a town, and getting him transportation and taking those costs out of the future sale of his house. And then, he can help himself by driving himself around to look for a job. This also buys him the time needed to find and buy some land to live on.
As for alcohol, no money should be made available from any source for my brother to buy alcohol, except sources my brother creates for himself: ie if he gets a job he can then buy what he wants, but neither me or my parents will provide him any money to buy alcohol. We'll buy him food and any other things he needs to get buy during this period, but we won't give him money to do so for himself. One big hurdle is gas money. How does my brother get money to buy gas to be able to drive around for job hunting, without spending it instead on alcohol?
One solution I can think of is to buy a 50 gallon drum which we can see to it will be refilled once a week or as needed, the money taken out of his house. Easier would be a gas-only debit card. Or, perhaps some arrangement with a particular gas-station owner...any thoughts on this?
The other concern is what happens if money suddenly isn't available for alcohol. Will my brother steal (he never has before)? In the past, he has resorted to selling things he owns...Will he suffer severe withdrawal? My thought--which may sound naive, is to provide enough money for 6 drinks a day for a week or two, and tapering down to zero within a month or 6 weeks. ALong with that, to provide naltrexone, campral, or tocapheral (sp?) which he can take in the morning to reduce cravings. The hope is that 1. he won't drink and drive that way 2. he won't have alcohol on his breath during the day while looking for a job and 3. the gradual reduction will reduce the severity of withdrawal symptoms, which can reduce his chances of employment. A few years ago, after detox and rehab, he went along for months with taking naltrexone in the morning, and not drinking until getting home at night, then drinking 6-8 beers, so it appears that he could become more functional with this approach.
In addition part of the plan would be to require regular counseling in return for the help we are providing.
My brother is 48 years old. His job opportunities are dwindling. I think he may have to try something unusual--like offering to work for free or half pay for the first 2 weeks, in order for an employer to be willing to give him a chance.
If all works out, he will have his own place, his own transportation, and his own job, AND be drinking none at all or possibly more functionally (perhaps only after the job and not while driving).
The hope is that by helping him have a better life and counseling, he may decide that he has better reasons to not become so out of control with his drinking.
Our plan would also be to tell him that IF after all this happens he messes up, loses a job, gets thrown in jail, etc.. we no longer will help him--he is on his own to get govt help for food, living expenses, etc., and we won't bail him out--he is on his own and will be forced to get clean in jail.
I'm sure this all looks like enabling to most of you. However, I don't want him to end up homeless and suicidal. I think hopelessness may be less effective than hope in getting an alcoholic, or anyone else for that matter, to contemplate change. As long as we aren't enabling him to drink 12 beers a day--and eventually any beers at all, we give him a viable pathway to bettering his life.
My brother has admitted he is an addict, but also says he doesn't intend to stop drinking. He says that when he works he modifies his drinking and drinks less. He knows alcohol has caused some life problems, but has had very little counseling over the years, and would prefer to not discuss the role of alcohol in his life.
Ok, bring it on--is this a lousy plan, and if so why? Is this a decent plan? What are your thoughts?
thanks,
ted
I've been over on the alcoholism thread for a few weeks, trying to understand the mind of an alcoholic. Several times it has been suggested that I come over here. I've been hesitant to because I dont' like the philosophy that we should basically abandon our alcoholic loved ones so that they hit bottom faster. My assumption is that is what is taught by Al-Anon. Maybe that isn't fair or accurate.
Here's the situation:
My brother is a fairly serious alcoholic, drinks 12 beers a day, beginning with one or two in the morning. He is eligible to get his drivers license back, but if he gets another DWI, he will probably go to jail (3rd time, I think). He moved out of his house, jointly owned with my Dad, a month ago to a cabin in the woods 100 miles away, owned by our cousin. Our cousin has asked that he move out soon for various reason.
My brother has a truck that isn't running, but it is at his house close to me and my parents. It can be fixed by my Dad (maybe 5 hrs work) or by a mechanic for perhaps $300-500. My brother could come in to fix it, but his life would be in danger at his house, and IMO my life and my parents life would be endangered if he stayed with either of us. Finally, he would be more likely to see his on and off girlfriend if he comes in, and that would increase the risk of danger to him and anyone associated with him (we will be getting his house ready, and that is only 2 blocks away from the person out to get my brother). My brother is now out of money. He doesn't have a job. So, he has:
1. No money
2. No job
3. No transportation
4. No cellphone service in the woods
5. Only another week or so to live in the woods.
If I and my parents do nothing to help him, it appears he has the choice to either become homeless or to move back to his house which will put his life in danger. Basically, he stole another man's woman, and the man likely will want revenge. However, he is no longer with the woman, but there are very strong feelings both ways, though she cannot be trusted. The man assaulted my brother and the state is pressing 1st degree assault charges, with potential $20,000 of medical bills related to the assault charge on my brother. My brother is not wanted by the police.
I do not think it is right to just let my brother become homeless with so few resources to turn things around, just because he is drinking even though drinking has contributed to his various problems. Other things have contributed too.
More info: His house can probably be sold in 2 months or so, netting my brother a possible $20,000 in profit. However, my brother didn't hold up his end of the bargain with my Dad, so while my Dad is willing to give my brother $20,000, he only wants to do so with stipulations--ie he can use it to buy some land with some shelter on it, but he can't just have 20 grand to use however he wants.
So, in a sense my brother isn't really moneyless or homeless. Any help provided for the near term--food, short term rent, gas, transportation costs can come from future sales of his house.
I'm thinking that there is nothing wrong with setting my brother up with another place to live temporarily that is closer to people, ie near or in a town, and getting him transportation and taking those costs out of the future sale of his house. And then, he can help himself by driving himself around to look for a job. This also buys him the time needed to find and buy some land to live on.
As for alcohol, no money should be made available from any source for my brother to buy alcohol, except sources my brother creates for himself: ie if he gets a job he can then buy what he wants, but neither me or my parents will provide him any money to buy alcohol. We'll buy him food and any other things he needs to get buy during this period, but we won't give him money to do so for himself. One big hurdle is gas money. How does my brother get money to buy gas to be able to drive around for job hunting, without spending it instead on alcohol?
One solution I can think of is to buy a 50 gallon drum which we can see to it will be refilled once a week or as needed, the money taken out of his house. Easier would be a gas-only debit card. Or, perhaps some arrangement with a particular gas-station owner...any thoughts on this?
The other concern is what happens if money suddenly isn't available for alcohol. Will my brother steal (he never has before)? In the past, he has resorted to selling things he owns...Will he suffer severe withdrawal? My thought--which may sound naive, is to provide enough money for 6 drinks a day for a week or two, and tapering down to zero within a month or 6 weeks. ALong with that, to provide naltrexone, campral, or tocapheral (sp?) which he can take in the morning to reduce cravings. The hope is that 1. he won't drink and drive that way 2. he won't have alcohol on his breath during the day while looking for a job and 3. the gradual reduction will reduce the severity of withdrawal symptoms, which can reduce his chances of employment. A few years ago, after detox and rehab, he went along for months with taking naltrexone in the morning, and not drinking until getting home at night, then drinking 6-8 beers, so it appears that he could become more functional with this approach.
In addition part of the plan would be to require regular counseling in return for the help we are providing.
My brother is 48 years old. His job opportunities are dwindling. I think he may have to try something unusual--like offering to work for free or half pay for the first 2 weeks, in order for an employer to be willing to give him a chance.
If all works out, he will have his own place, his own transportation, and his own job, AND be drinking none at all or possibly more functionally (perhaps only after the job and not while driving).
The hope is that by helping him have a better life and counseling, he may decide that he has better reasons to not become so out of control with his drinking.
Our plan would also be to tell him that IF after all this happens he messes up, loses a job, gets thrown in jail, etc.. we no longer will help him--he is on his own to get govt help for food, living expenses, etc., and we won't bail him out--he is on his own and will be forced to get clean in jail.
I'm sure this all looks like enabling to most of you. However, I don't want him to end up homeless and suicidal. I think hopelessness may be less effective than hope in getting an alcoholic, or anyone else for that matter, to contemplate change. As long as we aren't enabling him to drink 12 beers a day--and eventually any beers at all, we give him a viable pathway to bettering his life.
My brother has admitted he is an addict, but also says he doesn't intend to stop drinking. He says that when he works he modifies his drinking and drinks less. He knows alcohol has caused some life problems, but has had very little counseling over the years, and would prefer to not discuss the role of alcohol in his life.
Ok, bring it on--is this a lousy plan, and if so why? Is this a decent plan? What are your thoughts?
thanks,
ted
Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 792
Originally Posted by tedseeker 
I'm sure this all looks like enabling to most of you. However, I don't want him to end up homeless and suicidal. I think hopelessness may be less effective than hope in getting an alcoholic, or anyone else for that matter, to contemplate change. As long as we aren't enabling him to drink 12 beers a day--and eventually any beers at all, we give him a viable pathway to bettering his life.
My brother has admitted he is an addict, but also says he doesn't intend to stop drinking.
My brother has admitted he is an addict, but also says he doesn't intend to stop drinking.
in my opinion, it does sound like enabling. i do think that not everyone has to hit bottom to want to get help or become sober, but i think that's what's been found to be most effective. perhaps your brother losing his home, and even living on the streets for a few days, will be enough to make him want to stop. but maybe not.
i know it's hard to give up on family... especially when you think you could be doing something to help. but the truth is, unless he gets the help himself, it just won't work. you stated above that he doesn't intend to stop drinking, and that's your answer. no matter how you ration it or justify slowing his drinking down, as soon as he gets a job that pays, he's going to start the cycle all over again. from here, it just seems as if you're prolonging the inevitable.
he has to WANT to stop. any thoughts on how you can get him there?
When Pigs Fly
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: california
Posts: 894
Here is my story. I felt the same about my husband, so I gave him a ticket to go stay with his brother. His brother offered him to stay with him as long as he didn't sit on his A$$ and look for a job, and send money to his kids. Needless to say this didn't work my Xhusband drank and sat on his a$$ so his brother asked him to leave, now he is living withthe next co-dependent he could find, still not working and still drinking. I'm not against helping it just seems no matter how much or how little we help if they don't changes their drinking habits nothing will help. The hard part on us is that we don't want them homeless and we don't want them dead. WE LOVE THEM.
I wish I had something better to say but I don't. I wish you luck, this is a very hard road to be going down. Oh and he is a grown man and is in this situation because he did it to himself not you, not your parents. Remeber you can't make things better for him only he can and if he is ready then get him the help he needs. The right help, to get him to stop drinking.
Kermmie
I wish I had something better to say but I don't. I wish you luck, this is a very hard road to be going down. Oh and he is a grown man and is in this situation because he did it to himself not you, not your parents. Remeber you can't make things better for him only he can and if he is ready then get him the help he needs. The right help, to get him to stop drinking.
Kermmie
Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,579
Hi,Ted....I'm so glad to see you over here,too.
Actually,I understand not liking the idea of not "helping"....I put off coming here for a long time,too. I just didn't think it was right. I found out "my" way only prolonged the disaster so I am now here so I can be a part of the "solution" instead of the problem. My now exAH (he didn't like my thinking he needed help, thus now "ex" ) is still drinking and spiraling down. I can't help that but I don't have to help him do that.
Reading and posting has helped me a lot...I've been a slow learner but I'm starting to understand!
The "Getting Them Sober" books have really helped me; I think you would find that they are something you might find interesting,too. There are a few chapters online at http://www.GettingThemSober.com
Again; glad you are here! We can always use a few more friends here,especially someone as intelligent and patient as you have shown yourself to be!
Hope you stick around!
Actually,I understand not liking the idea of not "helping"....I put off coming here for a long time,too. I just didn't think it was right. I found out "my" way only prolonged the disaster so I am now here so I can be a part of the "solution" instead of the problem. My now exAH (he didn't like my thinking he needed help, thus now "ex" ) is still drinking and spiraling down. I can't help that but I don't have to help him do that.
Reading and posting has helped me a lot...I've been a slow learner but I'm starting to understand!
The "Getting Them Sober" books have really helped me; I think you would find that they are something you might find interesting,too. There are a few chapters online at http://www.GettingThemSober.com
Again; glad you are here! We can always use a few more friends here,especially someone as intelligent and patient as you have shown yourself to be!
Hope you stick around!
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2007
Location: St. Charles, MO
Posts: 95
Originally Posted by InThisForMe
I know it's hard to give up on family... especially when you think you could be doing something to help. but the truth is, unless he gets the help himself, it just won't work. you stated above that he doesn't intend to stop drinking, and that's your answer. no matter how you ration it or justify slowing his drinking down, as soon as he gets a job that pays, he's going to start the cycle all over again. from here, it just seems as if you're prolonging the inevitable.
he has to WANT to stop. any thoughts on how you can get him there?
I remember reading a few years ago that the strongest predictor of success for those who go through rehab isn't how much one had already lost, but how much they perceived they would lose if they continued to drink. That has always left an impact on my thinking. I don't know if it is true or not, but it makes sense to me. That's for rehab success though--not necessarily the same as predicting who goes to rehab in the first place...
And, just maybe, he will at the least return to the pattern he had for years of not drinking until after 6:00 pm for a while--if it holds it is an improvement, and if it doesn't maybe it will be an eye opener--ie maybe he will realize that it must be all or nothing BEFORE hitting a very painful bottom. I know, I'm hoping for a lot here.
Thanks,
ted
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2007
Location: St. Charles, MO
Posts: 95
Originally Posted by Pick-a-name
Hi,Ted....I'm so glad to see you over here,too.
Actually,I understand not liking the idea of not "helping"....I put off coming here for a long time,too. I just didn't think it was right. I found out "my" way only prolonged the disaster so I am now here so I can be a part of the "solution" instead of the problem. My now exAH (he didn't like my thinking he needed help, thus now "ex" ) is still drinking and spiraling down. I can't help that but I don't have to help him do that.
Reading and posting has helped me a lot...I've been a slow learner but I'm starting to understand!
The "Getting Them Sober" books have really helped me; I think you would find that they are something you might find interesting,too. There are a few chapters online at http://www.GettingThemSober.com
Again; glad you are here! We can always use a few more friends here,especially someone as intelligent and patient as you have shown yourself to be!
Hope you stick around!
Actually,I understand not liking the idea of not "helping"....I put off coming here for a long time,too. I just didn't think it was right. I found out "my" way only prolonged the disaster so I am now here so I can be a part of the "solution" instead of the problem. My now exAH (he didn't like my thinking he needed help, thus now "ex" ) is still drinking and spiraling down. I can't help that but I don't have to help him do that.
Reading and posting has helped me a lot...I've been a slow learner but I'm starting to understand!
The "Getting Them Sober" books have really helped me; I think you would find that they are something you might find interesting,too. There are a few chapters online at http://www.GettingThemSober.com
Again; glad you are here! We can always use a few more friends here,especially someone as intelligent and patient as you have shown yourself to be!
Hope you stick around!
ted
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2007
Location: St. Charles, MO
Posts: 95
Originally Posted by mallowcup
Are the things you have suggested helping him really or are they things that will make you feel better?
ted
Becoming a Butterfly
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 904
Hey Ted - I call it "through the looking glass". Everything is backward here in bizzaroworld where we love alcoholics. Look at all that stuff you wrote. Look at all that involvment you have in the life of another adult. And he's a fully grown man too. Just as an aside, all over the world grown men manage to find places to live and support themselves. What makes him so special, so precious, that he needs a team to take care of him?
NO NO - we all did what you're doing. Some of us for like 30 years. It doesn't work! Stop! We swear! Go ahead if you think we're just being mean. Set him up with safe home and a job and a car. Ten bucks says you come back here to talk about how he wrecked the damn thing or otherwise caused catastrophe. In the meantime he will have been enabled to drink how many beers? 12 per night for a year means he'll have drank about 4380 beers.
Why not stop the maddness now? Not help him drink 4380 beers by "helping" him get a car and stuff? Maybe if he's on his own with no place to live and no one to save him, he'll get help now. At least he won't have a car to kill himself or someone else in ...
It's crazy, I know, but if you help him you're going to help him kill himself. Cruel to be kind.
Keep reading. The right path will come to you.
NO NO - we all did what you're doing. Some of us for like 30 years. It doesn't work! Stop! We swear! Go ahead if you think we're just being mean. Set him up with safe home and a job and a car. Ten bucks says you come back here to talk about how he wrecked the damn thing or otherwise caused catastrophe. In the meantime he will have been enabled to drink how many beers? 12 per night for a year means he'll have drank about 4380 beers.
Why not stop the maddness now? Not help him drink 4380 beers by "helping" him get a car and stuff? Maybe if he's on his own with no place to live and no one to save him, he'll get help now. At least he won't have a car to kill himself or someone else in ...
It's crazy, I know, but if you help him you're going to help him kill himself. Cruel to be kind.
Keep reading. The right path will come to you.
Fool To Do Your Dirty Work
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Greenflower Street
Posts: 362
Hi Ted - welcome - nice to see you here....I agree with lots of the previous advice given - it has proven true in my situation...
One thing I have learned - if he says he has no plans to stop drinking, he means it....he will continue to drink....and with alcoholism being the progressive disease that it is, it will get worse. sad but true.
also, don't forget to think about YOU here....like WantsOut said - look how much time, thought, energy, (not to mention $$) you are investing an another adult. what could you be doing for you with all of these resources??
i know how hard it is and i tried and tried to love my A into sobriety, but he just wasn't ready - even after serving jail time for several duis. so, please don't think i am being critical.
p.s. i used to buy groceries/cigarettes for my A too, so I could feel good that HE was taken care of....didn't want to give him $$....gee, i wonder what he did then with the $20 or $30 bucks left in his pocket that he didn't have to spend on food....i thought i was doing the right thing and trying not to enable...silly me....
best wishes to you as you work this all out in your head....keep reading and posting....your path will become clear...and don't forget, you can always change your mind if you don't like the first path.....it is your human right.
One thing I have learned - if he says he has no plans to stop drinking, he means it....he will continue to drink....and with alcoholism being the progressive disease that it is, it will get worse. sad but true.
also, don't forget to think about YOU here....like WantsOut said - look how much time, thought, energy, (not to mention $$) you are investing an another adult. what could you be doing for you with all of these resources??
i know how hard it is and i tried and tried to love my A into sobriety, but he just wasn't ready - even after serving jail time for several duis. so, please don't think i am being critical.
p.s. i used to buy groceries/cigarettes for my A too, so I could feel good that HE was taken care of....didn't want to give him $$....gee, i wonder what he did then with the $20 or $30 bucks left in his pocket that he didn't have to spend on food....i thought i was doing the right thing and trying not to enable...silly me....
best wishes to you as you work this all out in your head....keep reading and posting....your path will become clear...and don't forget, you can always change your mind if you don't like the first path.....it is your human right.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: anomaly
Posts: 2,180
it's like a process of elimination..Ted.
The doors of AA or NA remains open for a reason..
There was nowhere else for me to trun too.
but it was actaully a blessing..i had nothing else to loose
and everything to gain..I was no longer distracted.
Recovery was all that was open to me..
No more rehab...no more intervention.
The rooms of AA/NA was open...i just had to get off of my ass
and go. Being as sick as i was...i had to sit in my own sheit for a while.
I blamed everyone for my problems..but there it was.
Do or die...I cutted through the RED tape
No one needed to tell me anymore...i hitted my bottom and it was ugly.
It's as if I needed to be broken down into little piece in order for
me to get rebuild again...I'm one those hard headed never wanted
to stop using people. it had to have been that way, but it was the
best thing that would had happened to me...
i became willing and i wanted it. More than anything then i've ever wanted.
Something clicked inside of me. me, myself, and I have had enough..it had to hit me like that from deep within. No more games..no more lies.
Disease or no disease...religion or no religion , NA..AA..whatever..it didn't matter anymore.
I did it no matter what..i slept in my car for almost a month.
If it didn't kill me...I made me a stronger person
Well..it's a long ways to the top if you wanna rock n roll...
and you don't get to start on top or in the middle somewhere..
you gotta start in the basement or the mail room..lol
The doors of AA or NA remains open for a reason..
There was nowhere else for me to trun too.
but it was actaully a blessing..i had nothing else to loose
and everything to gain..I was no longer distracted.
Recovery was all that was open to me..
No more rehab...no more intervention.
The rooms of AA/NA was open...i just had to get off of my ass
and go. Being as sick as i was...i had to sit in my own sheit for a while.
I blamed everyone for my problems..but there it was.
Do or die...I cutted through the RED tape
No one needed to tell me anymore...i hitted my bottom and it was ugly.
It's as if I needed to be broken down into little piece in order for
me to get rebuild again...I'm one those hard headed never wanted
to stop using people. it had to have been that way, but it was the
best thing that would had happened to me...
i became willing and i wanted it. More than anything then i've ever wanted.
Something clicked inside of me. me, myself, and I have had enough..it had to hit me like that from deep within. No more games..no more lies.
Disease or no disease...religion or no religion , NA..AA..whatever..it didn't matter anymore.
I did it no matter what..i slept in my car for almost a month.
If it didn't kill me...I made me a stronger person
Well..it's a long ways to the top if you wanna rock n roll...
and you don't get to start on top or in the middle somewhere..
you gotta start in the basement or the mail room..lol
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 5,075
My experience is accepting that what I used to think was helping WAS enabling, prolonging AH's drinking career. I do not believe in any way, shape or form that I have abandoned him. My suggestion would be to become as educated as possible on the science of alcoholism. The more I learned (the changes that occur in the brain of an alcoholic), the more I was at peace with my decisions. Once I realized an addict's brain is not rational, I understood he could not make the decisions I thought he should - love of family, home, security, etc., because all his brain was telling him was to not abandon his safety net - alcohol.
((()))
((()))
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2007
Location: St. Charles, MO
Posts: 95
Originally Posted by WantsOut
Hey Ted - I call it "through the looking glass". Everything is backward here in bizzaroworld where we love alcoholics. Look at all that stuff you wrote. Look at all that involvment you have in the life of another adult. And he's a fully grown man too. Just as an aside, all over the world grown men manage to find places to live and support themselves. What makes him so special, so precious, that he needs a team to take care of him?
NO NO - we all did what you're doing. Some of us for like 30 years. It doesn't work! Stop! We swear! Go ahead if you think we're just being mean. Set him up with safe home and a job and a car. Ten bucks says you come back here to talk about how he wrecked the damn thing or otherwise caused catastrophe. In the meantime he will have been enabled to drink how many beers? 12 per night for a year means he'll have drank about 4380 beers.
If we do go ahead with the 'plan', it seems that maybe the 'plan' needs to be presented in a way that makes clear that we think drinking has been a big factor with his current situation, so if future problems occur and he is still drinking we will not help him anymore unless he decides to stop drinking.
Why not stop the maddness now? Not help him drink 4380 beers by "helping" him get a car and stuff? Maybe if he's on his own with no place to live and no one to save him, he'll get help now. At least he won't have a car to kill himself or someone else in ...
It's crazy, I know, but if you help him you're going to help him kill himself. Cruel to be kind.
Keep reading. The right path will come to you.
ted
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2007
Location: St. Charles, MO
Posts: 95
Originally Posted by denny57
The more I learned (the changes that occur in the brain of an alcoholic), the more I was at peace with my decisions. Once I realized an addict's brain is not rational, I understood he could not make the decisions I thought he should - love of family, home, security, etc., because all his brain was telling him was to not abandon his safety net - alcohol.((()))
I've got to get some sleep. Thanks very much to everyone for your concern and willingness to help me and share what you have learned and experienced.
ted
Becoming a Butterfly
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 904
oh Ted, who the hell knows 
*snort* Some of this stuff really worked for me, like detaching. Other stuff I don't do. We live. We do our best. You're good for caring. Make sure you care about yourself just as passionately. That's probably the best thing I've learned that I could pass on.
*snort* Some of this stuff really worked for me, like detaching. Other stuff I don't do. We live. We do our best. You're good for caring. Make sure you care about yourself just as passionately. That's probably the best thing I've learned that I could pass on.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: anomaly
Posts: 2,180
Ted..
my mother bailed my ass out of jail twice in a month..
She paid my bills thinking i was going to straighten up or relize..
But nope....i had $3000 and never told her..
She begged and begged me to stop...but nope, i didn't stopped.
She dis- own me..it just got to that piont and she cried her heart out
as she walked out of my life..after she cleaned my freaken living room..
Lol...i had to sleep in my car for a month..
Then I gradutate to sleeping on the side of her house for a couple
of weeks...
Then i graduate to sleeping under her patio for another couple of weeks..
She didn't let my ass in her house, but she was graceful enough
and still codi to let me hop in her pool to clean myself to go to meetings.lol
after doing 90 meetings in 90 days...she actaully let me sleep on her
floor..wooo hoo...I graduatate to have A/C
my mother bailed my ass out of jail twice in a month..
She paid my bills thinking i was going to straighten up or relize..
But nope....i had $3000 and never told her..
She begged and begged me to stop...but nope, i didn't stopped.
She dis- own me..it just got to that piont and she cried her heart out
as she walked out of my life..after she cleaned my freaken living room..
Lol...i had to sleep in my car for a month..
Then I gradutate to sleeping on the side of her house for a couple
of weeks...
Then i graduate to sleeping under her patio for another couple of weeks..
She didn't let my ass in her house, but she was graceful enough
and still codi to let me hop in her pool to clean myself to go to meetings.lol
after doing 90 meetings in 90 days...she actaully let me sleep on her
floor..wooo hoo...I graduatate to have A/C
Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 792
Originally Posted by tedseeker
Another answer, which I favor, is you build him up so that other things become more important.
but, there came a point when those beer ads on tv, and the walking by people drinking and restaurants started to bug her. if everyone else could drink, why couldn't she? then i heard the "i think i could drink socially. i think i can learn how to drink moderately. i think i'm at a point in my life where i can handle it now. i know what i need to do." right. and the drinking resumed. we broke up, she went back to drinking on a daily basis.
my point is (again just my experience) that no matter how much we build them up, until they lose the desire and obsession of drinking (often until they've lost everything they have), it's always going to be in the back of their mind. they're going to walk by those people (gosh, especially in the summertime) who are drinking outside of restaurants and bars. they're going to see ads on tv glamourizing alcohol. you can build them up all you want, but society just ain't changing anytime soon.
it is what it is...
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 179
I don't believe that such choices are beyond the reach of an alcoholic.
I am still on the side of believing in values and character strengths as being important factors that an alcoholic CAN utilize over the power of his obsessions
OK, I'm still not good at the quote thing but Ted, those are your words.
You are absolutely right in what you say. Alcoholics do recover. They do, they can. But what we are trying to tell you is that it is ONLY IF THEY WANT TO.
It takes more than lip service from them too. Mine tells me all the time that he will quit. He does sometimes but not for long. Yet, I know some they do forever, such as my dad.
I gave my A everything, always took care of him, always stood beside him, believed in him, love, love, loved him. So does his family. He can't quit drinking, wanted to sometimes and did for a while as I said, but then he gets sucked back into it. It is a terrible addiction. It is a physical need for him. Something that can be so hard to understand. When my A can't control it and he sees that it is hurting the people that help and love him, sees that it destroys us, makes us angry, makes us cry. He feels even worse and at that point, what does he do, turns back to his trusty friend alcohol. It never gets mad at him, it never cries.
Your brother doesn't want to stop. He said it. Respect it. Deal with it. Wait for him to come to you and say he does. You can help him. I couldn't let my A not have food or warmth. I couldn't. I couldn't not love him. But what I can do now is know that he knows he is loved. Your his brother, he knows you love him. But I know that my helping him really didn't. It really didn't. It just made him angrier when I stopped enabling him and made it even harder for him to take care of himself on his own. It is a terrible long reaching, debilitating and progressive disease. It doesn't care. It doesn't rationalize.
Do what you need to do. I appreciate that you are open to our responses and not defensive. Thank for joining and stay with us. Keep us posted, we care. B
I am still on the side of believing in values and character strengths as being important factors that an alcoholic CAN utilize over the power of his obsessions
OK, I'm still not good at the quote thing but Ted, those are your words.
You are absolutely right in what you say. Alcoholics do recover. They do, they can. But what we are trying to tell you is that it is ONLY IF THEY WANT TO.
It takes more than lip service from them too. Mine tells me all the time that he will quit. He does sometimes but not for long. Yet, I know some they do forever, such as my dad.
I gave my A everything, always took care of him, always stood beside him, believed in him, love, love, loved him. So does his family. He can't quit drinking, wanted to sometimes and did for a while as I said, but then he gets sucked back into it. It is a terrible addiction. It is a physical need for him. Something that can be so hard to understand. When my A can't control it and he sees that it is hurting the people that help and love him, sees that it destroys us, makes us angry, makes us cry. He feels even worse and at that point, what does he do, turns back to his trusty friend alcohol. It never gets mad at him, it never cries.
Your brother doesn't want to stop. He said it. Respect it. Deal with it. Wait for him to come to you and say he does. You can help him. I couldn't let my A not have food or warmth. I couldn't. I couldn't not love him. But what I can do now is know that he knows he is loved. Your his brother, he knows you love him. But I know that my helping him really didn't. It really didn't. It just made him angrier when I stopped enabling him and made it even harder for him to take care of himself on his own. It is a terrible long reaching, debilitating and progressive disease. It doesn't care. It doesn't rationalize.
Do what you need to do. I appreciate that you are open to our responses and not defensive. Thank for joining and stay with us. Keep us posted, we care. B
the girl can't help it
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: splendraville
Posts: 5,599
I think by taking charge of your brothers affairs instead of letting him handle them you are giving him a very powerful message that you don't think he is able to make his own choices.... and I think that is very non-supportive of who he really is...Why don't you allow him the dignaty to make his own choices?
All this you will buy his food for him and stuff; has he asked you to do this?
All this you will buy his food for him and stuff; has he asked you to do this?
Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
