Grasshopper

im smiling here.Thinking about the 20 years i spent trying out all sorts of things,to help another alcoholic,before i myself came to AA/Al-anon..I mean some of my plans,i thought were fail-proof,only to find that they were not,after all.ahh yes the best laid out plans,for another.hmmm.Self-esteem,self-worth,does not come from others,or owning matieral things.it comes from the --self--There are alcoholics who had alot of the good in life,like family,friends,good jobs,etc,,etc,,and lost them all due to alcoholism..Trying to understand the alcoholic mind,is,like, trying to understand tempory insanity.Ya can drive yourself around the bend if not careful.Read all that you can about alcoholism,if you believe your brother is alcoholic.This may give you insights.But to actually understand????
Having said this,i say go for it.Do what you feel is best.And if it doesnt work out,thats ok,for you will understand how powerless that you are.I found out the hard way.I didnt abadon anyone,but i sure let the conquences of their actions hit home with them.And this IS,what woke my loved one up.Me to by the way,im also alcoholic,who goes to al-anon.
all the best.
have you thought about an intervention?
All the best,

GlassPrisoner

Hey Ted ! I was wondering where you went.

You're in good hands here. These people have been through what you're going through, and can give you plenty of good advice.

I can only tell you what it's like to be an alkie. They can tell you what it's like to love one.

That said I'm not entirely without qualification here. My Mom is an alcoholic who is drinking herself to death. I never knew words like enabling, detachment or the like until I poked my head in here. But I lived them without knowing them. Do I worry about her ? Yes. Do I obsess over her drinking and how I can help or make her stop ? No. Do I try and set an example by "walikng the walk ? " Definitely. That's really all I can do. That and pray.

minnie

Oh, ted, will you adopt me as your little sister? I'm being made redundant at the end of the month but I can't find the motivation to do my cv, my spare room is a heap because I can't be bothered to do any ironing or paperwork and I still haven't unpacked all of my boxes from when I moved in February. If I only had someone who would come in and do that stuff, I'm sure I'll be able to get on the right track and it won't happen again. Please?

I do actually believe that people can influence others to change behaviour - I have many positive influencers in my life. I think, though, that I only started to see that once I had made the decision that I wanted my life to be different. And at first it was a "push" away from crappiness, rather than a "pull" towards happiness. I had to hit my bottom first. If my family had swooped in to save me before that happened, I would only have learnt that I didn't have to do it myself and, in fact, would not believe that I could do it myself.

Reinforcing positive behaviour and having boundaries in terms of negative behaviour can make a difference, but I would hesitate to have any expectations that change would come anytime soon. Problem drinking and the underlying psychological and pysiological issues, are hugely resistant to change. I did so much for my ex, as did the women before and after me. As far as I know, he is still on his steady decline. The cumulative affect of so many women leaving him because of his drinking may one day make him wake up, but that may be 20 years from now.

Bottom line for me was the realisation that I didn't know best. I did not know the reason he drank and for all I know, drinking to numbness was the best solution for him. It was my arrogance that thought I had a better answer.

mallowcup

If you were an employer would you hire a guy who is actively drinking with a pending charge of first degree assault hanging over his head? You said that the courts are looking for $20,000 in medical costs for the man he beat up. As an employer would you willingly invite this type of character into your business. An employer can not hire a person under your terms unless they work off the books, and that's illegal. It's unfair of you ask someone to take that chance because what if your brother gets hurt on that job?
Let's be very clear about something in all fairness for those who have come before you, people who stop "helping" thier alcoholics are NOT abandoning them. There is probably nothing harder than ACTIVELY not helping someone you love. I think the misconception is that people who stop helping, stop caring. Toudh love is the hardest.
Let's talk about the reality of him driving. Do you have any idea how much the insurance will be even with just a clunker and just liability? You would most likely have to buy the vehicle and put the insurance under your name. He's actively drinking with no plans of quitting. He's made that clear. You'll have to buy a car, pay to have it registered, insure it and then turn him lose knowing he's going to drink and drive. How will you feel if he gets into an accident and gets hurt or hurts someone else? Do you have your own family? If you do, you are going to put their financial future at risk. If you have kids, be prepared to do as much for them when they get the license. If I were your kid, I'd assume that cars and insurance are gifts.
If he does start driving and gets into an accident, can you be sued? You bought the car, most likely the insurance is under your name......well, you could put the insurace under his name IF you can even find a company willing to insure him. He's high risk.
You can sell his house but if he's an adult he can spend the money any way her wants. Your father can attempt to make his stipulations as legal as he wants but they won't hold up. Why? What's your father going to do if your brother doesnt' keep the stipulations? Ultimately, nothing. He may NOT be able to sell his only asset if he has a legal case against him that looks for money. They will seize the property first. Why would the court trust him to pay them if he sells, they don't have to trust him.
You say that your brother has CONTRIBUTED to his own problems. I think he is the sole author. He stole a mans wife and then beat that man up.
Have you consulted a professional to run your plan by? That's another thing, it's your plan not his.
Why would a gas station owner trouble themself with some special arrangement for your brother? If you have to approach a gas station owner to make special arrangements, does this say anything to you? If I owned a gas station and you approached me, I'd say, if I make specail arrrangements for him, I have to make special arrangements for others. What happens if his alotted gas money runs out and he wants some? No one needs that kind of trouble.
How is that he isnt' in jail with a first degree assault charge pending, isnt' the next step up attempted murder? That is a very weighty charge. I would hire anyone with this charge against him, I would even take him as a volunteer, you've already said this womans husband is looking for him, I wouldn't want him finding him at my business or pumping gas at my station.
I think you are factoring way too many people into your plan.
Let's say that this morning you were going to put this plan in motion. I think it sounds awesome in theory and in reality, it has a slim to none chance of working.
The reason I'm being so tough about this is because you are about to spend real money and spend real time. You have concluded that not helping means abandonment. This implies that the more you do, the more you care. This is why I would love for you to get your own counceling.

minnie

Great post, Mallow, although I think ted's brother was the attackee, rather than the attacker.

Great point about the illusion that the more we do, it must mean we care more. I find that the most loving thing I can do for another human being is let them be who they are. We all have potential and it is up to us to find out where that potential may lie and how we need to achieve it. It is not my success if other people do most of the legwork.

parentrecovers

i understand your frustration and fear, ted. i have a 23 year old daughter who is an addict/alcoholic. believe me, if i could cure or control her disease, i would. but i can't. i support in her efforts towards sobriety. i also cannot let her addiction ruin my life.

alanon really helps me. i take the parts i like, and leave the rest.

blessings, k

mallowcup

That's an excellent point parentcovers. Supporting them in THEIR efforts is very diffferent than bailing them out and sparing them the consequences.

reader

We have been in similar situation with my 36 year old son. For gifts I have given him grocery gift certificates that stipulate no alcohol or a gas card. Beyond that he is on his own.... I refuse to enable him.

tedseeker

Its confusing, and kind of a combination. The food money actually is his own money, out of the future sale of his house. But, if we give him the money, he'll buy beer first. So, the plan is to buy the food for him. I don't know how to give him money for gas though without him buying it for beer. Any thoughts on that, anyone?
As for the job, the plan is for him to find it on his own. We've driven him around 2x now (it takes the whole day) because he has no license yet and lives 15 miles from anything. He's got to move, but needs money for a place to live--again to take out of his own money.

Alternatively, we sell the house, give him $20,000 and say--good luck. I believe he would drink and spend until it is gone. Dad has the right to put conditions on the money because my brother failed to live up to his end of the bargain on the house. One condition would be regular counseling.

ted

Mr. Christian

Ok Ted,

Seems you are in a spot here.
Now it might not be the spot you think you are in.

The real thing you need to figure out is not HOW to help him, but that you CAN NOT help him.

First off Alanon would be a great step for you and your family.
It will help you all get through the next stages and beyond.

From what you have stated you seem to think a great plan of CONTROL will help.
But alas it will not.


Hitting his bottom should not be prolonged and enabling him as you have laid in your plan will only make it last longer.

The greatest gift that any of you can give is to step back.
This gift is not only to him, but to yourselves.

splendra

this is still your plan not his. Them feeling their pain is what makes them quit not us trying to control their world. If he is not ready to quit there is no amount of manipulating the situation by you or anyone else. If he wants to drink he will.

Believe me all the ones responding to you feel your pain and know where you are coming from. Addiction uses love it chews it up and spits it out when it has lost it's flavor...keep the focus on yourself dear one...

tedseeker

Mallowcup, it wasn't my brother who assaulted anyone. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. My brother was the one assaulted. My brother is not in trouble with the law. He IS becoming less employable though with the alcohol problem, and his age (48).


Yes, and I'm sorry if I offended anyone.

He has been elig to drive for over a year. My dad said the ins company said it would be about $500 for 6 months--money that could come out of my brother's house profit. The truck is his already, but needs repair--perhaps another $500 out of his own money. So, no liability to me. As for an accident, yes, I am very concerned about that, and would always wonder if we did the wrong thing. I'm hoping the naltrexone and his need to be sober on the job would keep him from driving drunk to and from work, though it is always possible he would drive later in the night...normally I don't think that was his prior practice, but you never know.


The house is jointly owned, and my brother wants to buy his own place, so that doesn't look like a problem. The counseling is the issue my brother may agree to upfront and then fail to follow through. But, he may view it as either he complies or he is out that money--ie free counseling, so why not?


I said his drinking has contributed. Other things have also, but ultimately sure he is mostly to blame (external factors--ie, the world, do make a difference too). So, denial often has some truth to it--alcohol isn't soley to blame.

The plan would be to pay the owner upfront. He basically is getting money that could go to his competition. All he has to do is keep track and set the pump. Better he spend money on gas than beer.


His own money, and not that much time, once he is moved. Some time helping him find a more permanent place to move to, and some time getting his truck fixed and out to him, but then he is pretty much left on his own to make it work, or fail.

ted

tedseeker

Can't a gas card by used to buy anything at a gas station--including alcohol?

tedseeker

Actually though it seems like the $20,000 legitimately is his, at least sort of. That's what is tricky to me here. We could just give him the money and say good luck. Is that what everyone here thinks is best?

Mr. Christian

It's his money.
Unless otherwise stated by a court, give it to him.
Its his $ and his life.

You have yours.

Pick-a-name

My advice on this (and many professionals who refuse to even see an addict/alcoholic for several months AFTER they are clean) is to save your time,energy and money. You and your dad using it for a vacation would be money better spent! (amoung other ways....that do NOT involve your brother).

My AH and I did try this for a few weeks. First: he lied to the counselor about his drinking....no surprise there except that the man believed it! He also agreed with what the man said (lip service) walked out of the room and continued doing just what he wanted to do,less the $ for the appointment. Oh; and he then had the "satisfaction" of saying he was "getting help" and twisting things in his head to think that his behavior was NOT a problem.


Of course, do what you want but I can think of MANY ways the money we wasted could have been better spent!!! That was my experience and several other people I have have known,too.

In fact: buying a copy of "Under the Influence" and "Getting Them Sober" for you and one for your dad would (in my mind) be a MUCH BETTER use of that $. JMHO

Thanks for letting me remember these things!

elizabeth1979

Hi tedseeker
This would be best for me if I was in your shoes.
Thats exactly what I would do.

This allows him the dignity and responsibility of controling his own life and money like the adult that he is, instead of giving him an allowance with stipulations and such, which sounds like he is less than an adult.

More importantly, it allows me to release myself from feeling responsible for his choices.
Best of luck

tedseeker

One problem is that originally the idea was that the profits would be used for my brother to buy another house, fix it up, etc..and not to just spend as he wishes. Maybe a good idea is to give him $2,000 and say "this is for you to live on, fix your car, buy some insurance, and buy food while you find a job and a new place to live. When you find a new place, and sign the contract, we'll give you the money for it. If the $2,000 runs out, you are on your own entirely. Good luck." He could always sell his new land and get the $18,000 or so for it then..

One concern with this is that it immediately gives him money that he could use to try and see his girlfriend, thus increasing the likelihood of additional trouble from her 'husband' find out where he is, and going out to him there. Under our plan, he has no money in his pocket in which to do foolish things--at least not immediately--perhaps enough time to let things cool down more between them..


Thanks. One fear of course is for his life. He already came within seconds of being beaten to death from this guy. I'd rather he live the rest of his life as an alcoholic than be dead.

ted

LaTeeDa

If you read this post again, do you notice how it seems that you are speaking about a child? I used to treat my husband like he was a child, too. The result? He acted like one. Did you not say this man is 48 years old? Treating a 48yo man like a child will only encourage him to behave like a child. The hardest thing I ever did was step back and stop trying to CONTROL him and his choices. I was exhausted and just couldn't do it any more. It sounds like you are not to that point yet. Once I stopped, he started taking responsibility and picked up the pieces of his life. Sadly, it was too late to save our marriage. Maybe if I had let him have the dignity every adult deserves sooner...................who knows? He is sober and taking care of his own life now. I never in a million years thought that was possible.

L

tedseeker

Yes, but that is how he behaves when given his own choices to make. I'm not taking responsibility for him behaving like a child, though I may treat him like one in order to protect him.

He never had a girlfriend in his life prior to this last year, and has done some very foolish things to be with her. He now has some distance--which is good. Money in his pocket can make everything go backwards quickly--and put his life greatly at risk.

If his safety wasn't such a real concern (the court date is in two weeks) I'd be much more comfortable with just handing him a wad of money and letting him put himself together or mess up.

ted