fuguestate

I have a friend who is an ACT therapist (Acceptance and Committment therapy) which is a behavioural intervention designed to diffuse words from their literal meanings. She sees addiction as emotional avoidance and has had considerable success in treating those with substance abuse/addiction. Don S was asking for references concerning other possible helpful techniques, from the evidence I have seen from peer-reviewed studies, ACT may be of use to some people. Here is a link to an article by the leaders of the ACT field http://www.biu.ac.il/soc/cr/courses/951/therapy.pdf#search='addiction%20acceptance%20and%2 0commitment%20therapy'
It's a PDF file that is largely a review but would give most people the gist of the intervention and how it compares to 12 step programs.

I have to point out that I am not in any way connected to ACT, nor am I even a behavioural psychologist.

Don S

That document looks very detailed and useful, fugue. Thanks for taking the time to post the link, and welcome to SR!

tramp

i dunno what it is but my bios says my drives are SMART capable and enabled.

TimOFromChicago

This is a great thread... DonS has previously given me information about SMART which was very useful in helping another person I know and myself as well. I've been able to gather quite a bit more info from the links and the cut and paste. Please keep it coming!
Tim
P.S. I'm an AA'er but I'll use any tool that can help me or anyone else overcome addiction, alcoholism, etc. Again many thanks.

kip13

SMARTRecovery is an interesting concept. Their face to face meetings employ interesting REBT techniques based on the work of Ellis and others. They really strive to provide an alternative to 12 step programs and in the f2f world tend not to denounce AA and other programs. Their meetings tend to be small and focused and for those pursuing a mind over matter solution, SMART can be quite effective. They seem to totally discount the disease theory of addiction and while they discuss the stages of change, they seem ill prepared through their training to discus the stages of recovery.

Their attempt to deploy their toolkit against all maladaptive behaviors is where they really lose their focus. One size fits all.

SMARTRecovery Online (SOL) is another story altogether. Seemingly a "free" offshoot of Trimpey's Rational Recovery, SOL does not provide a credible alternative to 12 step programs. Not only does the program focus on all maladaptive behaviors in addition to addiction, but it also accomodates all usage goals and models; moderation, harm reduction, even active users participate in their meetings while under the influence. So while SMARTRecovery claims to be an abstinence program, in practice it is not.

Training for facilitators is in just that, facilitation of meetings. There is no professional REBT guidance online. The site reports many relapses, both with SMART volunteers and members. While all abstinence should be commended, the short length of sobriety for many of their volunteers diminishes their crediblity. Relapse is met with great support and empathy, but the frequency of repeated relapse combined with discussions of moderation and harm reduction make it a more difficult place for those seeking abstinence to be successful in their goal.

Having said that, for those not yet committed to abstinence, this small niche site may be an appropriate step in their journey. This is an excellent place if relapse is in your future since the empathy is so strong. For those seeking abstinence, however, their time is better spent elsewhere.

SMART folks in this thread and in the AA thread readily discredit and challenge the effectiveness of AA. But SMART and REBT are evidence based. There is no real evidence that SMART Online works in assisting those addicted to drugs and alcohol to achieve long lasting sobriety through abstinence. And if SMARTRecovery Online was a more effective alternative, it would be growing rapidly. It is not.

Don S

Nice of you to reveal yourself here, K. For the rest of you, Kip has apparently been a regular visitor at SMART Recovery online (under another name) for several months, making a barrage of suggestions about how to run the site and meetings and getting very frustrated when the volunteers haven't leapt to embrace each suggestion. The effect of his/her attitude and approach has been damaging to the morale of volunteers and harmful to members.

Unfortunately, much of what you've said here about SOL is incorrect. SMART is not affiliated with Trimpey's program, as he would be quick to tell you. And while both are behavioral approaches, they diverged a long time ago. Your statements here about the SOL volunteers simply repeat the offensive and incorrect statements you've made on the SMART site and in the chat rooms under another name.

"...it also accomodates all usage goals and models." Nonsense. SMART Recovery is an abstinence-based program. For those seeking abstinence, SMART is not only appropriate but specifically intended. Our refusal to accept your repeated efforts there to have us exclude active users from the meetings appears to have frustrated you. Members there are free to discuss harm reduction and moderation in the context of the goal of abstinence. Neither, however, are promoted by SMART Recovery, on the website or in the meetings. Finally, SMART Recovery online is growing rapidly.

Perhaps this means you're going to take your disruptive behavior elsewhere now. Not here, I hope.

bartender129

Hi there Kip,

I just wanted to give you a little back round from my experiences here at SR. When you suggested that people should be prohibited from participating in SMART online meetings until they have 6 months of sobriety, I told you that at SMART we don’t shoot our wounded. Well I got that line from the folks here and I think that many of them feel this way.

Your other suggestion about breaking up meetings by DOC, I think you will find some support for this here in the alcoholism forum and in the AA forum. The Substance abuse and NA forums many folks share the opposite opinion that addiction is the issue, despite the substance abused.

Lastly, your late night routine of offering one snippet of advice (go to a doctor and get on medication) and then asking “who can Kip save next?” will probably be considered as tiresome as I thought it was when I had the pleasure of witnessing it.

See you around

Bill

Dan

Oh, this should be fun...

bartender129

Get yo popcorn ready Dan...

Kabalah1

I am fresh to SoberRecovery after nine months at SMARTOnline. Sorry to disappoint the folks above, but I have no intention of participating in the sport of criticism of recovery alternatives that DonS and Bartender129 seem to continually want to engage in. In nine months of active participation in the support of SMART members in their pursuit of abstinence, I don't think that I ever saw DonS participate productively in a single meeting or chat session and I rarely saw Bartender129, or Leaf as he is known there, provide constructive momentum. Half of the site, or the "volunteer forum" may have active participation from them, but that area of the site is password protected and is not available to members. In fact while well known by the volunteers, I don't think that SMART "members" would even know who they are.

I encourage each and every person that has not achieved abstinence to give SMART a try. I believe that there are no tools that are contraindicated in the support of one's recovery. I am focused on the condition of alcoholism and the end result of abstinence. There is enough of a societal stigma to overcome. In my opinion, sniping and politics have no place in recovery. Positive contributions are what most people in recovery are seeking and why they visit sites like SoberRecovery. SoberRecovery is a great forum to provide that guidance.

As to the comments made about me personally above, they can easily be dispelled refuted by visiting www.smartrecovery.org and looking through the small number of posts that I made when I was there. They have no basis in fact. And you can also chat openly with the members there with regard to my reputation there over the last nine months. It is those members that I hoped to assist in recovery whose opinion matters to me. Not the opinion of the SMART message board administrator and a long term volunteer. Personal attacks will never replace the facts.

As for the questions regarding SMART asked earlier in this thread, they are easily answered. As Message Board administrator, DonS; has access to all the statistics, can add a poll regarding member and volunteer length of abstinence, "member" participation vs. "volunteer" participation, active participation by the SMART Board members and/or Advisory Council members, etc. ...if he wanted to debate the issues based on fact. I for one do not support that request or that activity. If SMART assists in one alcoholic's recovery, that's good enough for me.

I would ask that SMART folks turn down the rhetoric here. The freedoms of opinion allowed here are important, but would not be and are not tolerated by DonS at SMART. In fact the only thing that really concerned me about SMART was DonS' censorship practices. In fact I posted a comment that Kip sent to me that DonS posted here in the AA thread. I pasted it into a thread at SMART and it was immediately deleted. A comment suggesting "member" participation in the SMART "volunteer" decision committee was also deleted immediately. While SMARTies are in a position to control the debate there, this is a place for exchange of information and for debate as to solutions. Personal attacks are simply not productive or necessary.

So though I am sure that they will come, I will not respond to further personal attacks by "SMARTies". If individuals actively pursuing sobriety are interested in how SMART might assist them in their journey, I would be happy to discuss the matter and share my personal experiences with them privately. I would be happy to refer them to the folks there that can help; those that are focused on the goal of recovery.

So please put the popcorn away unless you feel it can really help someone in their recovery. And please don't throw any more chum in the water. I won't take the bait.

Sobriety to all!

Kabalah1

brigid

I have no idea then why you started your post with sniping. Just an observation.

love brigid

Don S

Private messaging has been an option for you there and here, Kabalah.

Peter

Now, this is interesting.....

Autumn

This is a bunch of BS, and I can't believe that no one who has been on the receiving end of Don S or Bart's advice has come forward in their defense.

I can personally say that both of them have been very generous with their time in giving me advice when struggling with certain aspects of my recovery.

Not to mention how they have unselfishly reached out to other posters here, offering extensive advice and citing references almost tirelessly, and probably sacrificing much of their own personal (offline) lives in the process.

They can't do everything and be everywhere all the time. I think they both go above and beyond, are caring individuals, and have no obligation whatsoever to share their brand of ES&H, other than a simple and sincere desire to make a difference.

'Nuff said.

Don S

Unfortunately, half-truths take on the veneer of truth when they go without reply. That is one of the first axioms of, um, politics. And when they are snipped and repeated by a forum leader it simply increases that problem.

Kabalah arrived at SMART Online several months ago, spent a great deal of time in the chat rooms in the unscheduled times, and assisted many people. He did not reveal that he was reviewing SMART Recovery for the purposes of establishing his own recovery clinic, nor did he appear to be dealing with his own recovery issues.

I don’t spend much time in the chat rooms, because I am one of the message board administrators and that is enough volunteer activity for me. Forums, as you may have noticed, are my medium. Others prefer the informal open chat, and keep an eye on what is going on there; still others run meetings.

He was abrasive to some of the volunteers, causing some morale problems. Kabalah has strong opinions about how people should be dealt with. At one point, when I was in chat helping with someone who had threatened suicide, Kabalah repeatedly urged me to lock her out, block her ISP, close the room, give her ultimatums. His intolerance for people attending online meetings under the influence, or even entering the open chat areas, has already been mentioned.

Recently he started posting on the message board, making suggestions for how to organize it differently. When some volunteers weren’t instantly positive in their replies, he started describing some perceived gap between the ‘members’ and the ‘volunteers’, as though we had an inflexible hierarchy. In fact, a couple of his proposals are under active consideration. But apparently not active or fast enough for Kabalah—he is, in his own words, out to save the world.

So we were treated to a farewell post there a few days ago, which is where, for the first time, he revealed his motives and told us his personal history. And now he has moved over here, joining his partner kip13 who has been here since March, and whose misrepresentations about SMART have already been discussed on this thread (but just to reiterate: SMART is an abstinence-based program). Moderators, consider yourselves forewarned.

The SMART message board is privately run and is moderated—just like this one. It isn’t a Usenet group, and neither is SoberRecovery. SMART's message board has somewhat different purposes than SR, but vigorous discussions are ‘allowed’ all the time. It is a very lightly moderated message board. Yes, there are separate forums for the volunteers (egad! ‘password protected!’), so we can discuss the issues involved in administering the forums and the chat rooms. The volunteers and admins are answerable to an elected, representative committee, which is answerable to the SMART Recovery Board of Directors. There are complaint procedures in place.

There are two admins and two moderators, a couple more moderators for specific forums, and more than two dozen volunteers. We get hundreds of posts per day. Some of them are contentious, some are off-topic, and so on. So we use judgment (which is necessarily subjective) to moderate those posts. Sometimes we lock them, edit them, or even remove them -- just as is done here. People don't like that.

This isn’t the place to debate the moderation practices on another privately owned forum. But one rule there is pretty much what it is here: if you have a concern about why something was edited, removed, or locked, contact the admin’s privately. Kabalah chose not to do it that way; instead he chose to debate the admin practices there and to continue that discussion here. And of course, he called and continues to call the removal of his posts 'censorship'. Probably just a matter of time before Godwin’s Law comes into play.

When you set up your private clinic, Kabalah, you can have any kind of message board and forums that you want. Heck, you can do it right now. Until then, when you’re using privately owned forums run by others, you and I are subject to the rules and management of those forums. I’m glad you found redeeming features in SMART Recovery. It would probably have been better to present yourself and your intentions more openly and honestly in the first place, and it might prevent misunderstandings were you to do so here as well.

I suppose this post is related tangentially to the topic of this thread, as it does describe one part of SMART Recovery. But if the moderators deem it otherwise, they can remove it as they see fit. It's happened to me before, albeit very rarely (once?). Because this is a privately owned, but very lightly moderated, forum board.

ps--Thanks, autumn! I appreciate your comments.

equus

Don, I can only speak personally but I weigh people up by what they say about others and their own behaviour. I have seen continuous curtousy (sp??) from you, I have seen threads where you've gone togreat lengths to offer real help.

Kab reminds me of a teenager who's justed stomped off from their youth group!! I respect they way you behave Don, I dislike the way Kab has behaved - particularly in entering a forum with seemingly the sole intent to be to down talk any of it's members.

There's enough here alone to let people judge for themselves and while there will be some drawn towards the people who create trouble, I believe for most of us the respect you because of your own behaviour here , while I think they look a little ridiculous!

Justme57

I must say Don, that in the 2 and a bit years I have been here, I have always considered your posts to be polite, and often helpful. I dont usually post in threads which are contentious, but in this case, i feel that I must voice my opinion.
When I was very newly sober, you were very encouraging to me, and I have always followed your posts with interest

HUGX
Lee

brigid

Yes, thank you DonS for enlightening us about Kab, I was rather confused about who this person was. Their first post, and it talked as if we would all have a clue about who they were and these imagined comments made about them. Their first post and they were disrespectful of another forum member ... I actually thought that it was pretty alcoholic behaviour.

I too have always found DonS' posts respectful of everyone and the time he puts into finding information for people is substantial.

So these two people Kip and Kab are tight, Kab is into recovery programs and wants to save the world, and Kab has not mentioned his own recovery at all. I nearly went into sarcastic mode ... stopped in time ... hate to stoop to that stuff. Really enough to say that they have left the SMART forum and come directly here and critisized SMART. That speaks for itself.

Dan

Kip, Kabalah...
Where do you find these people Don?

You know, if one were to form an opinion of a recovery program by the rhetoric of two of its members...

I've read Kabalah's post a few times.
It looks like an elaborate expose of his miscontent.
I really don't know how much he and Don know eachother, but that's irrelevant.
What matters is how I know Don.
I appreciate him being part of my daily visits here, our private conversations, and our camaraderie. I'd sure love to drag him to an AA meeting one day, just 'cause...
In fact, we're supposed to have coffee with Music, one of these days.

Cheap shot, K dude.
Points for presentation and eloquence.
But a miserable failing grade for honor and grace.

Five

Don and Bart have been great since I have joined SR.

Just thought I would chime that in.